[Torment] Chance to hit and Mind Magic friendly fire

[E-Rose]

Agent playthrough.

When getting surrounded by enemies (some not letting you escape) the only way out is crowd control. The problem is that the Agent can get Dazed by his own spell and miss most of the enemies, the outcome is a reload.

 

Hit chance is governed by player/creature level. Why not give the player a mechanism to increase enemy hit chance and reduce probability of hitting friendlies via Mental/Combat Magic points or some other stat? Arguably you shouldn't be able to Daze yourself at all.

[Vinlie]

Yeah it's very annoying. Not sure if I like the added "tactical" approach the game forces you to do because of this.

[Randomizer]

It only happens on harder difficulties that you can have friendly fire. That big mental resistance bonus usually helps you out when surrounded and have to include yourself.

 

This has been the way for recent games.

[Mechalibur]

It's certainly better than the previous way difficulty was handled - massively inflating enemy stats and changing nothing else. I haven't really been in a situation where daze would target my own character - the game typically doesn't have enemies flank you from multiple sides. Usually the bigger consideration for friendly fire is your creations getting caught.

[Randomizer]

You can easily get surrounded because Sholai and creations can leap over obstacles to a target. If enough leap next to the target they can flank or completely surround.

 

The not being able to increase  the Player Character (PC) to hit chance makes the game harder than previous games. That encourages using creations because they can increase to have a better to hit chance than the PC. Most of the time it doesn't make a difference unless you are fighting a boss or some Sholai.

[Mechalibur]

Right, but the Sholai still have to charge toward you from their current direction. In my 3 playthroughs (all on Veteran or Torment) I haven't been in a single situation where I had to risk hitting myself with Daze.

[Slawbug]

Yeah.

  

3 hours ago, E-Rose said:

When getting surrounded by enemies (some not letting you escape) the only way out is crowd control.

 

The other way out is to not get surrounded by enemies in the first place.  It's almost always possible to avoid this.  The game does present Agents as needing to be more tactical, and less charge-in-guns-drawn, than Shapers can afford to be.

 

These kinds of tactics are crucial on Torment.  Whether it means changing your geographic approach, approaching slowly, sending weak sacrificial creations ahead as cannon fodder, or simply beginning your crowd control before the crowd coalesces... there are options.  The leaping definitely makes those options less tactically straightforward than they were in previous games, but it's still possible to make them work.

[alhoon]

I am playing on normal. So far, enemies don't leap at me. Not even thahds (although I daze them from distance). And I stay weeeell away from clawbugs to see if it would happen. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by alhoon

[E-Rose]

4 hours ago, Invisible Glove said:

Yeah.

  

 

The other way out is to not get surrounded by enemies in the first place.  It's almost always possible to avoid this.  The game does present Agents as needing to be more tactical, and less charge-in-guns-drawn, than Shapers can afford to be.

 

These kinds of tactics are crucial on Torment.  Whether it means changing your geographic approach, approaching slowly, sending weak sacrificial creations ahead as cannon fodder, or simply beginning your crowd control before the crowd coalesces... there are options.  The leaping definitely makes those options less tactically straightforward than they were in previous games, but it's still possible to make them work.

Oh yeah!

What this means as an agent is you have to start combat before being visible to the enemy, send a squishy creation forwards, let the enemy chase it without getting the creation killed and group the enemy so that they can be hit with Daze or Terror. 

 

Works in open areas good enough, except when the enemy leaps and offs the creation, when Daze misses almost everyone 3 or 4 times in a row due to hit chance being driven by levels... or when the game forces you in enclosed spaces were this strategy doesn't work. And again, Shapers are better at it.

 

Basically Torment as Agent is double tormenting 😅.

Edited March 9, 2021 by E-Rose

[Slawbug]

Oof, fair enough on the Daze misses!

 

If Daze is truly missing numerous enemies 3 or 4 times in a row, because your hit chance is low enough that that's a normal outcome -- sounds like you're punching above your weight.  Geneforge gives you a lot of flexibility in what order you go through areas in, but the enemies aren't equally tough in all areas.  On Normal you might not have to worry so much about the enemies getting harder.  On Torment, extremely low hit chance may be a sign that you should come back later, when you're stronger.  Either higher levels, for hit chance, or better spells/creations/equipment, for better options period.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, Invisible Glove said:

On Normal you might not have to worry so much about the enemies getting harder.

I thought that too. 

Led to butt-on-a-plate, reloads and quick retreats from a couple of areas.

Disclaimer: I am not doing a lot of tactics thinking and who should do what etc and I don't make the best use of my crystals and wands. I am sure some of the areas that I have trouble in as 7th lvl shaper you guys could clear in veteran at that level. 
Basically, except for some fights (including some tough Vlish), my strategy is: Use the creation's (Cryoas and roamer) most powerful ranged attack and then spam attack till the creation can do so again. Heal creations that are terrified by Vlish or that got their HP low. Stay at the outskirts of battle. 

 

None of the weird combos of "let's put the aura to the Cryoa and then move it where it can hit enemies passively" or "Let's make a pyroroamer and send it in AFTER my creations  block X and Y" 

Edited March 9, 2021 by alhoon

[Slawbug]

28 minutes ago, alhoon said:

Basically, except for some fights (including some tough Vlish), my strategy is: Use the creation's (Cryoas and roamer) most powerful ranged attack and then spam attack till the creation can do so again.

 

So, basically, "mash attack button."

 

I mean, I do that sometimes too, it's fun  but maybe not very good for assessing which areas are truly too hard to deal with.

[Randomizer]

There are some early areas that you just can't attack without thought. I know I had to change the order I did zones because you can't do them like original Geneforge.

 

I think /Jeff tweaked the game AI because some zones now have the creations swarming together to attack instead of staying farther apart. So /I'm now seeing 7 acid spewing iron claw bugs in the Dry Wastes at once instead of 2 r 3.

[alhoon]

Ahh... my experience in the Dry Wastes: 

"Vini, Vedi, ran away" 

 

 

1 hour ago, Invisible Glove said:

 

So, basically, "mash attack button."

 

I mean, I do that sometimes too, it's fun  but maybe not very good for assessing which areas are truly too hard to deal with.

 

Well, I also use daze. I had to do proper thinking and even positioning to take down the spawner outside Pentil without casualties. It is fun... once a while. I am not about to go barefoot through broken glass in order to kill a bunch of clawbugs when it can be avoided. 

[Mechalibur]

10 hours ago, E-Rose said:

Oh yeah!

What this means as an agent is you have to start combat before being visible to the enemy, send a squishy creation forwards, let the enemy chase it without getting the creation killed and group the enemy so that they can be hit with Daze or Terror. 

 

Works in open areas good enough, except when the enemy leaps and offs the creation, when Daze misses almost everyone 3 or 4 times in a row due to hit chance being driven by levels... or when the game forces you in enclosed spaces were this strategy doesn't work. And again, Shapers are better at it.

 

Basically Torment as Agent is double tormenting 😅.

 

I'm not really following the logic on why it's worse for an agent specifically. A shaper would have the exact same hit chance for daze.

[alhoon]

49 minutes ago, Mechalibur said:

 

I'm not really following the logic on why it's worse for an agent specifically. A shaper would have the exact same hit chance for daze.

 

A shaper has much more ease to avoid being surrounded though.  I walk surrounded by my beasties and keep my distance. If there are many enemies I stay back and heal or bless instead of joining the fight. 

[Slawbug]

You can't try to play an agent like a shaper.

 

I mean, you can, but if you do that on a high difficulty, you're going to have a lot of trouble.

[Mechalibur]

Okay, but then as a shaper you're risking dazing your own creations and run into a very similar issue as an agent would (which I'll maintain you're probably doing something wrong if you constantly find yourself in a situation where your only option is a melee range daze).

 

Agents only have slightly less essence than a shaper would, so they can easily still have a creation buffer between themselves and the enemies.

[E-Rose]

Problem with Agents is creation level, they aren't that high as a Shaper's and they miss a lot because of the level difference, so you need to use them as disposable distractions/meathshields.

Even if you focus on one shaping school, spending the points there is painful in early game and you sacrifice points that could be spent on mechanics/leadership or magic skills.

 

Most of it comes down to level scaled hit chance. A shaper can have creations that are 5 or more level ahead and they hit 95% of the time. The shaper/agent/guardian is always a few levels behind and has a worse hit chance than a creation. On torment I often hit just 1 enemy out of 4 or 5 with Daze.. on occasion when I'm surrounded I'm the only target that gets Dazed 😅.

[alhoon]

2 hours ago, Intentionally Left Bank said:

You can't try to play an agent like a shaper.

 

I mean, you can, but if you do that on a high difficulty, you're going to have a lot of trouble.

 Agreed. In case that was directed towards my answers too, I never meant to suggest one should try to play an agent like a Shaper. I was just saying that not be surrounded is much easier for a Shaper.