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Geneforge Mutagen Creation Mechanics


Mechalibur
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Figured it would be good to have a record for how creations work in Geneforge Mutagen

 

Creation Level = Base Creature Level + Ranks in Creation Ability + Excess Shaping Skill

So, for example, if you have 2 points in Create Fyora, and 2 Fire Shaping, your character would create a Fyora at level 5 (Fyora's Base Creature Level is 2 + 2 for levels in Create Fyora + 1 for having 1 more Fire Shaping than the minimum needed to create it).

 

Creation level impacts the creation's accuracy, damage, hit points, turn order, and difficulty to control. Speaking of that - let's take a look at the Control Level formula.

 

Control Level (low is good) = 2 + Number of Creations + Level Penalty - Total Shaping Skills + Difficulty Adjustment

Number of Creations: How many creations you have total.

Level Penalty: This is equal to 2 for each level your creation has greater than yours.

Total Shaping Skills: Your points in Fire Shaping, Battle Shaping, and Magic Shaping after the first point (so if you had 3 Fire Shaping, 2 Battle Shaping, and 2 Magic Shaping, this would be worth 4). This applies to all creations regardless of which skills you are proficient in.

Difficulty Adjustment: -1 for Casual, 0 for Normal, 1 for Veteran, 2 for Torment. The difficulty descriptions make it sound like only Torment increases control levels, but it's really impacted at all difficulty levels.

 

The Cockatrice has additional penalties to control level if you don't have all the canisters.

 

So what does control level do? The higher it is, the larger chance for a creation to become terrified or charmed for 1 turn when they start a turn at lower hp. I don't know the exact chances, but the risk is 0% when your control level is 0. Early on, especially on Torment, you may have difficulty controlling your creations - it may be best to prioritize putting points into creation active and passive abilities, since they do not increase the creation's levels.

 

Base Stats

Strength - Increases melee physical damage by 5%

Dexterity - Increases ranged physical damage by 5%, adds a 2% chance to evade attacks, improves turn order. Note that the only ranged physical attacks creations have are the leap attacks from Thahds and Battle Alphas.

Magical Skill - Increases non-physical damage by 5% and adds 5% duration to buffs/debuffs (unless that debuff came from a physical attack like the poison from a Clawbug Sting). It will also lower the cooldowns of abilities by 5% per point.

Endurance - Increases hp by 5, multiplied by the creation's hp scaling. Total HP is calculated as [Base HP + 5 * (Level + Endurance)] * HP Scaling. All HP rounds down.

 

Creation HP Stats

Spoiler

Fyora/Cryoa - Base HP: 3, HP Scaling: 1.3

Thahd - Base HP: 4, HP Scaling: 1.5
Volatile Thahd - Base HP: 6, HP Scaling: 1.4
Artila - Base HP: 1, HP Scaling: 1.1

Searing Artila - Base HP: 1, HP Scaling: 1.0

Roamer/Pyroroamer - Base HP: 8, HP Scaling: 1.3

Clawbug/Iron Clawbug - Base HP: 12, HP Scaling: 1.4

Vlish/Charged Vlish - Base HP: 5, HP Scaling: 1.0
Drayk/Cryodrayk - Base HP: 10, HP Scaling: 1.3

Battle Alpha - Base HP: 25, HP Scaling: 1.5

Battle Beta - Base HP: 75, HP Scaling: 1.5

Glaahk/Ur-Glaahk - Base HP: 40, HP Scaling: 1

Cockatrice - Base HP: 10, HP Scaling: 1.2

Ornk - Base HP: 8, HP Scaling: 1

 

Remember, base hp is multiplied by HP Scaling, which is why Battle Betas have such a huge HP pool to start

 

Creation Resistances

A few creations come with base resistances. You can't actually check this in-game for your own creations.

 

Standard Battle Creations have 20% armor and 50% stun resist. The Ornk is an exception, instead having 0% armor and 100% stun resist.

 

Standard Magic Creations have 30% fire, cold, energy, and mental resist. The Cockatrice is an exception, having no resists at all.

 

Fire Creations don't appear to have any resists at all. The scripts show the drayk as having 50% resistance to "resist 3" but I'm not able to figure out what that is in-game. Curse Resistance, maybe?

 

Creation Damage

The Base Damage a creation deals with an attack is: Ability Base Damage + (Level + Adjustment)Damage Dice.

Each ability has its own base damage and damage dice. Some creations will have abilities with a level adjustment where their level is increased by a certain amount before determining the number of damage dice. After base damage is calculated, it goes through any damage increases (from stats, for example) the creation has.

 

Creation Ability Damage Dice

Spoiler

X = Creation Level. Note, anything marked with * was extracted from the scripts and may be wrong because I wasn't able to compare it to in-game data. These are pretty much just used for melee attacks where the creation also has a ranged attack - the game will only show you the damage of the ranged attack when you look at their abilities.

 

If an ability isn't listed for an advanced creation, it's the same as the base creation. For example, the Battle Beta's attacks are identical to the Alpha's.

 

Fyora fire breath: 2 + (X+1)d3
Fyora cone of fire: 5 + (X+1)d3
Cryoa ice breath: 4 + (X+1)d4
Cryoa cone of cold: 5 + (X+1)d4
Cryoa swoop: 2 + (X+1)d3
Fyora bite*: 2 + (X+1)d4

Roamer fire spit: 12 + Xd5
Pyroroamer fire spit: 12 + (X+4)d5
Roamer fiery pounce: 6 + Xd3
Pyroroamer fiery pounce: 6 + (X+4)d3
Roamer fiery wind: 4 + Xd3
Pyroroamer belchblast: 10 + (X+4)d4 [Self damage: 2 + (X+4)d4]
Roamer bite*: 2 + Xd4
Pyroroamer bite*: 2 + (X+4)d4

Drayk fire spit: 12 + Xd5
Dryak drayk flame: 16 + Xd5
Cryodrayk ice spray: 12 + Xd6
Cryodrayk drayk ice: 16 + Xd6
Drayk bite*: 2 + (X+6)d4

Thahd punch: 2 + Xd5
Thahd leap: 6 + Xd4
Thahd stunning blow: 4 + Xd5
Volatile Thahd berserk blow: 6 + (X+4)d6 [Self damage: 2 + (X+4)d4]

Clawbug poison sting: 4 + Xd4
Clawbug poison spray: 4 + Xd2
Iron Clawbug poison sting: 4 + (X+1)d4
Iron Clawbug acid spray: 8 + Xd2

Battle Alpha claw: 8 + Xd5 [Cleave damage: Xd5]
Battle Alpha bull rush: 6 + Xd5
Battle Alpha knockout blow: 4 + Xd5

Artila poison spit: 2 + (X+3)d2
Artila poison spray: 4 + (X+1)d2
Artila poison bite*: 2 + (X+3)d4
Searing Artila acid spit: 2 + (X+3)d3
Searing Artila acid spray: 8 + (X+1)d2

Vlish jolt: 4 + (X+3)d3
Vlish tentazap*: 4 + (X+3)d4
Charged Vlish static shot: 8 + (X+3)d3

Glaahk stunning sting: 10 + Xd6
Glaahk shockwave: 5 + Xd4

Cockatrice petrifying touch: 4 + (X+4)d5
Cockatrice chaotic rainbow: 10 + (X+1)d5

 

I'm unable to figure out the damage equation for passive abilities like Volatile Thahd explosions or Cryoa's Icy Skin. If anyone has any info on that, I'd love to know more!

Edited by Mechalibur
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One thing I am very confused about is this:

 

If I raise a creation's level, the damage on their ability tooltip increases.

 

However, if I raise a creation's stats, their damage on the tooltip does not increase.

Adding a point of dexterity or strength or intelligence or endurance all results in the same damage tooltip. Equipping the helix bracer or some other stat-boosting item does not change the damage tooltip.

 

Is the damage tooltip wrong, or do stats not help? From the description above I am assuming the tooltip does not include the stat multiplier, but if so that seems like either a bug or just a very unhelpful UI implementation.

 

(Endurance certainly does give creations a hitpoint boost, and higher dex does seem to boost turn order, so stats certainly do SOMETHING.)

 

Having damage show accurately on the tooltip would be particularly useful when trying to figure out which stats boost it. Is a Fyora's fire breath a magic attack or a missile attack? This post tells me it is magic, but I did not know that from what the game told me.

Edited by Iguana-on-a-stick
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3 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

Dexterity - Increases ranged physical damage by 5%, adds a 2% chance to evade attacks, improves turn order. Note that the only ranged physical attacks creations have are the leap attacks from Thahds and Battle Alphas.

It's curious that the Fire Creation leap attacks (Swoop/Fiery Pounce) use Strength instead of Agility. If it's deliberate, it's an odd choice. Unless the abilities get shuffled and/or the new Creations in 2 have other physical ranged attacks, there won't be any others until the War Tralls in 4, which kinda devalues Agility (in addition to the evasion nerf compared to the original games).

 

(Also, your list of Creation abilities is missing the Cryodrayk Swoop.)

 

43 minutes ago, Iguana-on-a-stick said:

Is the damage tooltip wrong, or do stats not help? From the description above I am assuming the tooltip does not include the stat multiplier, but if so that seems like either a bug or just a very unhelpful UI implementation.

The tooltip shows the percent increase in damage in parentheses after the base damage numbers (eg, my Roamer has 7 Magical Skill, so it shows "(+35%)" after the base damage numbers in the tooltip for its main breath attack). It's a little odd that it doesn't show the actual effective number, with the multiplier applied.

Edited by googoogjoob
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1 hour ago, Iguana-on-a-stick said:

One thing I am very confused about is this:

 

If I raise a creation's level, the damage on their ability tooltip increases.

 

However, if I raise a creation's stats, their damage on the tooltip does not increase.

Adding a point of dexterity or strength or intelligence or endurance all results in the same damage tooltip. Equipping the helix bracer or some other stat-boosting item does not change the damage tooltip.

 

Is the damage tooltip wrong, or do stats not help? From the description above I am assuming the tooltip does not include the stat multiplier, but if so that seems like either a bug or just a very unhelpful UI implementation.

 

(Endurance certainly does give creations a hitpoint boost, and higher dex does seem to boost turn order, so stats certainly do SOMETHING.)

 

Having damage show accurately on the tooltip would be particularly useful when trying to figure out which stats boost it. Is a Fyora's fire breath a magic attack or a missile attack? This post tells me it is magic, but I did not know that from what the game told me.

 

Check the tooltip again - the percentage increase listed after the damage range should be increased if the relevant ability modifier increased. The range itself is the same, but that's because percentage increases are always applied after the damage dice are rolled. So if you boost strength on a Thahd, for example, the percentage listed after the damage dice should be 5% higher.

 

The breath attack is magic because it's fire damage.

 

Regarding Swoop - that's not affected by Strength or Dexterity. It does Cold damage, so it's affected by Magical Skill.

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9 hours ago, googoogjoob said:

The tooltip shows the percent increase in damage in parentheses after the base damage numbers (eg, my Roamer has 7 Magical Skill, so it shows "(+35%)" after the base damage numbers in the tooltip for its main breath attack). It's a little odd that it doesn't show the actual effective number, with the multiplier applied.

Ah, so that's what it means. I did not understand the percentage display at all.

 

Still a bit annoying to have to make the calculation when trying to determine creation damage... but at least there's a method to the madness. Thanks for the info.

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16 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

Fire Creations don't appear to have any resists at all. The scripts show the drayk as having 50% resistance to "resist 3" but I'm not able to figure out what that is in-game. Curse Resistance, maybe?

 

It's been a long time, but in OG1 that was used for Discipline Wand damage.  No idea if that's still the case.

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1 hour ago, utelektr said:

Do creations still level up with the player, or is their level dependent on your skills?

Creation level is entirely dependent on skills.

 

Specifically, each Creation type has a base level, and then, added to this, are 1) the relevant Shaping skill, above the threshold necessary to Shape the Creation- for example, a Drayk requires 2 Fire Shaping to make, and each level of Fire Shaping above 2 adds a level to the Drayk; 2) the PC's skill at Shaping the Creation in question- in Mutagen, this is necessarily the number of canisters one has used with the relevant Creation knowledge- this value is always necessarily at least 1; and then 3) each level/stat boost applied to the Creation, either at the time of Shaping or afterwards, adds another level. Each Creation can have up to five total level/stat boosts, with the stats it's possible to boost depending on the Creation's type. (Expending Essence to give a Creation active/passive abilities does not affect the Creation's level, however.)

 

Creations do not gain experience, and they don't gain levels in any other ways than noted above. Further, a Creation's level is recalculated in real time if any of the above factors change- if you add a point to your Battle Shaping skill, all your Battle Creations that already exist will gain a level, and if you find and use a canister of Create Artila, all your already-extant Artilas will gain a level. It's thus also possible for Creations to lose levels- for example, if the PC is wearing a piece of equipment that provides +1 to Fire Shaping when they create a Roamer, and later remove that piece of equipment, losing the stat boost, the Roamer will lose the level it previously gained from that point of Fire Shaping.

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On 3/7/2021 at 1:27 AM, Mechalibur said:

Dexterity - Increases ranged physical damage by 5%, adds a 2% chance to evade attacks, improves turn order. Note that the only ranged physical attacks creations have are the leap attacks from Thahds and Battle Alphas.

 

Are you absolutely sure that Dexterity only increases ranged physical damage? The tooltip for my Searing Artila's damage shows an increase when I take the dexterity upgrade. 

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Could you please post here the essence cost for the Creations and the cost/ level-up upgrade? 

 

I gave myself through script the ability to make battle Alphas to see whether I should go for that easy-to-reach canister I was told about. The result, based on levels alone was "meh" as the alpha cost somewhat more essence than an equivalent-level roamer (I have invested in Fire shaping). It is better than an equivalent level roamer but not "better enough" going from health and stats alone for me to buy battle shaping 2 to make the battle alpha (I have the starting battle shaping of 1 that I started with). 

 

What I mean is that at my current level, I could afford to have a battle alpha leveled up to be at the level of my roamer, but then I would have nearly no essence left to heal or bless. Which means that if my battle alpha turns rogue and attacks me, I would have to use some of my few cure spores or load. 

 

PS. So far no creation of mine has turned against me, they just run away. Does this still happen in normal difficulty? Do creations attack you or they just become afraid? 

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7 hours ago, utelektr said:

Are you absolutely sure that Dexterity only increases ranged physical damage? The tooltip for my Searing Artila's damage shows an increase when I take the dexterity upgrade. 

Try again after selecting a constitution upgrade. You will see the same damage increase. This is because the upgrades you buy increase a stat AND increase the creature's level. The boost is from the level increase.

 

This is confusing, but as illustrated above the damage tooltips you see do NOT include your stat bonuses. Only the base level-based damage.

 

The stat bonus is listed after the normal damage as a percentage. (i.e. +15%)

 

If you select an intelligence upgrade you'll see that +15% increase to +20%. If you select the dexterity upgrade, you won't.

 

 

7 hours ago, alhoon said:

PS. So far no creation of mine has turned against me, they just run away. Does this still happen in normal difficulty? Do creations attack you or they just become afraid? 

 

Yes, that also happens on normal difficulty. You'll see your creation's get the "charm" effect confusingly enough and they'll start attacking you. (Would have been better to re-name it "berserk" or something, but well.)

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9 hours ago, alhoon said:

Could you please post here the essence cost for the Creations and the cost/ level-up upgrade?  

 

2 Essence per upgrade: Fyora (base 6), Thahd (base 6), Artila (base 7)

3 Essence per upgrade: Cryoa (base 9), Volatile Thahd (base 10), Vlish (base 10), Clawbug (base 8), Roamer (base 8 )

4 Essence per upgrade: Searing Artila (base 12), Pyroroamer (base 12), Iron Clawbug (base 12), Charged Vlish (base 14), Drayk (base 14), Battle Alpha (base 14), Ornk (base 12)

5 Essence per upgrade: Glaahk (base 17)

6 Essence per upgrade: Cryodrayk (base 20), Battle Beta (base 20), Ur-Glaahk (base 22), Cockatrice (base 20)

 

 

Edited by Mechalibur
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Thanks

So... considering that Roamer starts at 3, requires 1 Fire Shaping. While Battle Alpha starts at 7 and requires 2 battle shaping... 

 

At battle Shaping 2, I would get a Battle Alpha at lvl (7+1) 8 lvl for 14 essence. 

At Fire Shaping 4, I would get a pyroroamer at lvl (3+3+1) 7 lvl for 8 essence. 

 

At 2 upgrades, I would have a roamer at lvl 9 for the same essence I would need for a Battle Alpha at lvl 8... 

Hmmm... seems interesting. 

However, I have Fire Shaping 4, while I only have Battle Shaping 1. I would need to invest XP to make use of the battle Alpha. 

 

Do you guys think it's worth it? 

 

The way I see it: 

At battle Shaping 3, I would get a battle Alpha at the same level I get my roamer at Fire Shaping 4, so I wouldn't need to invest in the more expensive upgrades of the battle Alpha. On the other hand, 2 levels of Shaping ... could get me to Fire Shaping 5. 

 

 But with Drayks...

At Fire Shaping 5, I would have a roamer at level 3+4+1=8 or a Drayk at level 7+3+1=11 

5 upgrades on roamer = lvl 13 and 23 essence. 
For 22 essence, I get a drayk with 2 upgrades so, lvl 13. 

Same level as the roamer with less essence and... a drayk. 

 

:/ Nah, doesn't seem to be worth to "multi" I loved my other GF mid-armies with a clawbug, a vlish, a cryora and/or a Drayk, but these seem to be a thing of the past. Multi-tasking is more punishing now. 

Edited by alhoon
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I think it's reasonable to invest in multiple shaping skills (well, maybe not for an agent). Only investing into a single one will cause increasingly high skill point costs and in the early/mid-game you run the risk of running into control issues. Each school of shaping also specializes in particular strategies and having multiple creation types available allows you to cover for a school's weakness. Fire creations, for example, have no resistances and can die extremely quickly, especially on higher difficulties. Battle creations tend to have noticeably higher hp, as well as decent resistances to physical damage and stuns allowing them to take hits for your softer creations (or yourself, if you're a shaper). Magic creations offer great utility, especially with debuffs - I find Magic Creations to be best on Guardians since they offer debuffs that you normally would have to get from investing in spellcasting.

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Frankly, I liked clawbugs and Vlish in the games I've played so I will grab the canisters when I find them. But as I am at 7th lvl shaper with Fire Shaping 5, I have no issues with control in normal difficulty. However, I have not maxed out the levels and I have 3 creations. 

Edited by alhoon
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5 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

I find Magic Creations to be best on Guardians since they offer debuffs that you normally would have to get from investing in spellcasting.

And buffs.

 

Except in a few areas this is more of a convenience/resource management thing, but having a charged Vlish blessing and a searing artila protecting your party is very convenient, and it's only 8 essence if you have those creations anyway. (For their acid/vulnerability)


Although I do find it hard on my manual dexterity to select them and use the abilities before combat starts.

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11 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

They're complete jokes, still. The fact that they have abilities (bull rush and acid spray) don't make up for their awful base stats and low level.

😲

 

So, if I boost the stats and level of the ornk to drayk-levels it becomes one of the best creations in the game? The atrocious hp scaling is an issue... 

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5 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

No, it will still be bad. You can't even boost it up that high because its base level is 1 and there's only a single canister. A drayk meanwhile has a base level of 7 and there are a total of 4 canisters available for it.

When I said "boost stats and level" I didn't mean through the upgrades. I meant changing the files so its base level would be 7, its max health bonus would be similar to the drayk and changing the same base stats as a Battle Beta. 

 

Still... I am Fire Shaping. If I get 2 drayk cannisters (I doubt I will find the last 2 before I am 90% done with the game) and with fire shaping well above battle shaping, I would still turn to Drayks. 

Edited by alhoon
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  • 2 weeks later...

Battle Alphas: I can make battle alphas but I have very low battle shaping so I didn't bother. Recently, I started encountering battle alphas as enemies (the refugee cave). 

Well, they seem to me significantly easier than clawbugs. 2 levels of difference is nothing and not putting poison on acid on my creations means I can wait to heal them later. I find myself doing the opposite strategy than I did for clawbugs: Get a couple of Alphas together since they're 1 by one, to finish them off quickly, instead of trying to isolate them. 

3 Alphas, I can do. 3 Clawbugs, I would run. 

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