The Spiderweb Software conundrum. What game to play next.

[Chopkinsca]

I'm new to Spiderweb games, at only a 1.76 years of playing them.

 

I wound up playing the original Avernum 1 - 3 again and had a great time with revisiting those games. The plan was to replay Nethergate after that then jump into BoA. Instead I gave Escape From the Pit a try and had a good time. Since I already owned it, I played Crystal Souls next and that was a really good time. I just finished off Ruined World last night. Three great games and I'm a bit sad that I finished them. I'll probably replay them at some point.

 

Now I have to decide what I want to play next. I want to replay Nethergate since that was a fun game. I only played halfway through Geneforge 3 and I kind of want to start that over and give it a proper finish. I own Avadon 2 and 3, so maybe I could play those considering I spent money on them. Then of course there is Queen's Wish. With that one I would try the demo first. So, quite a few options for me.

 

How do any of you folks decide what game to play next?

[madrigan]

I've been playing SW games for more than ten years, which puts me in the 10th percentile of people on this forum, maybe? I think Avernum 4 is the oldest one I've finished, but I've played every one since then. I just get them as they're released. The older ones, I just can't cope with the interface and I find them all very difficult to play. Anyway, I think the major trend in Spiderweb games over the last decade is that while the game worlds are still fanciful, the moral dynamics of those worlds are more and more realistic. In Avernum 1 - 4, you're the hero. In Avernum 5, you're a functionary of a colonialist state. In Avernum 6, you're the hero again, but the Slith and the Vahnatai have some solid arguments, don't they?

 

In Geneforge, you can be the hero, and there's more than one way to be the hero. In Avadon, you're not the hero. You're working for the amoral establishment. Everyone hates you and anything beneficent that you do leads to something terrible elsewhere. In Queen's Wish, you are the amoral establishment. Your actions are inevitably destructive of others' culture. You can make choices that are more moral and less self-interested, but you are informed again and again that whatever you do will end in tragedy. 

 

So my advice is, choose based on what kind of character you want to play. If you want to be a hero, play an older game. If you like things grayer, play a newer game. 

[Slawbug]

This is good advice, though I think by "older game" you really just mean "First Trilogy."  The change is less a trend and more a punctuated shift that happened in 1997.  Every non-remake SW game released since late 1997 has had explicit mechanics for "who do you want to side with / what kind of hero do you want to be" running through the whole game, with the sole exception of A4 (2005).  Granted, the 1995-1997 trilogy has been re-made twice.  But A4 is the only "you're just the hero" story Jeff has written in the last 22 years.

[Ess-Eschas]

In defence of Avernum 4, since I feel it’s in danger of being short-changed here, I think it’s worth mentioning that the game does feature engaging decisions and choices, and that there very much is a ‘what kind of hero do you want to be’ narrative involved – it’s just a little more subtle than other games. In some respects, I think what Avernum 4 does with its moral choices is really quite interesting.

 

Of course, to clarify, what Slarty says is entirely true. Avernum 4 doesn’t feature a faction choice in quite the same way as modern games, so in that sense, it fits into a similar mould to the First Trilogy. So, if you want to feel like a hero, do give it a try. It’s a good game, and worth your time, Chopkinsca!

 

Personally, I’m not sure that Queen’s Wish is quite as black and white as you say, madrigan, but this is largely down to interpretation, I suspect. Clearly, Haven causes some major cultural problems for its vassal states, but I don’t think the inherent doom of Avadon is cast over Queen’s Wish in quite the same way. After all:

 

Spoiler

the vassal states in the various endings are mostly described as not just getting by, but actually doing really rather well.

 

Honestly, I get the distinct impression that the Queen’s Wish series is going to be far more about the damage done to Haven through its actions than the damage done to the vassal states.
 

In any case, why not try out Queen’s Wish yourself, Chopkinsca, and see for yourself!

Edited November 15, 2019 by Ess-Eschas
Fixing some errant spelling.

[Slawbug]

2 hours ago, Ess-Eschas said:

In defence of Avernum 4, since I feel it’s in danger of being short-changed here, I think it’s worth mentioning that the game does feature engaging decisions and choices

 

I wasn't going to attack A4, but you're kind of asking me to with a comment like this.  What exactly are the decisions and choices?  I don't even care about "engaging" -- were they any meaningful choices that I have just forgotten about?

[Dintiradan]

2 hours ago, la justice en if subjectif said:

What exactly are the decisions and choices?

"How exactly do I take down this pylon?"

[madrigan]

15 hours ago, la justice en if subjectif said:

But A4 is the only "you're just the hero" story Jeff has written in the last 22 years.

 

I see that, but I think Avadon and Queen's Wish are the first SW settings where you can't be the hero. Though I agree that the world of Avadon is significantly darker and more hopeless than the world of Queen's Wish. 

[Ess-Eschas]

14 hours ago, la justice en if subjectif said:

I don't even care about "engaging" -- were they any meaningful choices that I have just forgotten about?

 

There are! They just aren’t quite as out-in-the-open as many of the other games – the result of there not being significant factions to join, I expect. The one I find particularly interesting is this:

 

Spoiler

There’s a reputation system governing how Rentar-Ihrno interacts with the player. It’s a simple one, but it’s there. This all leads to something fairly novel at the ending, a particular way of dealing with the big bad which I believe is a rarity for Spiderweb games.

 

If you want to punish Rentar, you can, with impunity. However, you can also choose to attempt diplomacy with her. The interesting point here is that, if your ‘reputation’ with her is high enough, you can actually succeed. You can argue her down, and get her to stop attacking Avernum through the power of your words. She then freely gives herself up to the rest of the vahnatai. Everybody lives!

 

There’s some very disturbing lore associated with that choice, too, which makes the vahnatai seem distinctly less human, and a little darker than they’ve been presented before. Let’s just say that they alter Rentar after the diplomatic ending of the game, and leave it at that. (There’s also a nice little reference to Dahris-Bok, too).

 

Just in case this comes across as the only meaningful decision in the game, there are others. For instance, perhaps the most obvious secondary choice is this:

 

Spoiler

You can choose to alter the balance of power in the Abyss, either by helping Spire to prevail over Bargha, or Bargha to prevail over Spire.

 

Personally, I’ve always liked the idea of the colony of spiders in the Great Cave. They don’t attack you, simply going about their happy, spider business. No-one asks you to fight them, and they’re not bothering anyone. But they have treasure, and you can only get it if you force them to be hostile. I know that’s not hugely new, but I think it’s an interesting decision. What kind of hero do you want to be, after all?

 

9 hours ago, madrigan said:

I see that, but I think Avadon and Queen's Wish are the first SW settings where you can't be the hero.

 

I still think you probably can be a hero of sorts in Queen's Wish, if you choose to be, but it’s not such a straightforward hero as in some of the other games. I mean, given certain circumstances, the factions in Queen’s Wish are really, really grateful to you – and in some cases end up building statues of you. I don’t think that’s because they’re forced to. My interpretation is that Sacramentum is really, legitimately thankful for your actions. Of course, that doesn’t mean that they’re aren’t some serious downsides to what you’ve done, too, just to clarify – I’m not trying to support colonialism here, let’s just be clear – but I think the player can end up doing an awful lot of good.

 

Still, I definitely agree with you that Queen’s Wish is part of the ‘moral grey area’ part of Spiderweb’s cannon. There aren’t any no-strings-attached happy endings here!

[Chopkinsca]

I ended up starting to replay Nethergate. It's a bit jarring going from the newer engine back to the old one but I can cope with it. This time I'm trying out Torment difficulty.

 

19 hours ago, Ess-Eschas said:

Of course, to clarify, what Slarty says is entirely true. Avernum 4 doesn’t feature a faction choice in quite the same way as modern games, so in that sense, it fits into a similar mould to the First Trilogy. So, if you want to feel like a hero, do give it a try. It’s a good game, and worth your time, Chopkinsca!

 

I've played all of the second Avernum trilogy, great games. I do want to revisit them and try out a harder difficulty. If only I had infinite time.

 

 

19 hours ago, Ess-Eschas said:

In any case, why not try out Queen’s Wish yourself, Chopkinsca, and see for yourself!

 

Some day I will try the demo. Right now I can't afford to buy it if I ended up liking the demo. I also want to play the other games I've paid for but have yet to play.

[Slawbug]

4 hours ago, Ess-Eschas said:

There are! They just aren’t quite as out-in-the-open as many of the other games – the result of there not being significant factions to join, I expect. The one I find particularly interesting is this...

OK, so small details relating to Rentar and the Abyss.  I mean, all Spiderweb games have small choices like that in addition to the major choices of faction and goal and so on.  Even the First Trilogy had some little details like that -- choosing whether or not to kill each of the Dragons, for example.  But the faction-choice games have plenty of those as well.

 

I admit that I am totally confused by the assertion that it's impossible to be a hero in Avadon or in Queen's Wish.  Totally not true.  "Hero" might be more nuanced than in A1-4, but it's certainlynot any more nuanced than it is in, say, Geneforge, where you're causing one or more factions to get massacred no matter what you do.  G3 and G4 in particular deliberately have nothing resembling a real heroic ending.

[Losrandir]

On 11/16/2019 at 5:08 AM, Dintiradan said:

"How exactly do I take down this pylon?"

How do I manage to fight a gazillion chitrachs with my sanity intact? JK, I had a very good time during that game also.

[Chopkinsca]

And I am back here. I just finished Geneforge 3. It has been the most rocky Spiderweb game for me to finish. I started it last year and only got halfway through it before dropping it for reasons. I started it back up again not too long ago. I made it to Dhonal (spelling?) Island and decided to start over because I felt like I messed up my build.

 

I have a few thoughts on what I want to play next.

 

Geneforge 4 could be a good choice, but I'm not sure if I'm ready to deal with more of the game's "odd" mechanics. It is tempting.

 

Avadon 2. I have played the first game but kind of rushed through it. If I play the second one, maybe I will take my time and also play on a harder difficulty. 

 

Blades of Avernum. One that I have wanted to play for some time but get overwhelmed by scenario choices. Jumping back in game engines doesn't bother me. Avernum is my favourite game and I wouldn't mind playing some more. Shorter scenarios are kind of offputting though, as I'm used to the full grand adventure of the Avernum games.

 

And then Queen's Wish. I don't own it yet, so I would only play the demo. I am not sure if buying it is an option right now. I've read a few reasons why I might not like the game, but I will see for myself. This is more of an in the future option for me.