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Who would side with the Shapers? (NO SPOILERS)


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Bear in mind that I've only completed G1, and have just started G2 (so I don't know a lot about them + I'd like spoiler-lite answers please) - but I can't fathom why would anyone side with the Shapers. I understand their concern that you need rules to keep creations in line. However, I can't understand how, for example, you'd treat Serviles as robots when they clearly have thoughts and feelings. Like when I get asked my opinion in-game, how can I say anything along the lines of "Yes you creations should do everything that we command and you can have no say in anything". Feels so dictatorial - where's the middle ground?

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You’ve met the Geneforge itself, so you know there are some dangerous forces in the world. If you went full-on canister junkie or used the Geneforge, you also know some of those dangerous forces have the potential to become a huge threat….because they can cause a man to gain enormous power while losing his basic human decency and restraint. (In the later games I went to the other extreme and kept my “canister virginity” for that reason.)

 

What the shapers offer is an answer to that, because they want to forbid the use of canisters and Geneforges, and have the power to do so. As you play through G2 (which is a great game, one of the best SW ever did in my opinion, and I hope you thoroughly enjoy it) and the later games, you’ll see more threats and the question will become: what’s more important, using the power of the Shapers to stop or contain these threats, punishing the Shapers for their tyranny, or something else?

 

 

 

The games are so designed that none of the choices before you are ideal, but that is just like life….like having to ally with a real power instead of an ideal one, or having to vote for a real candidate instead of an ideal one. It was the same in G1 – to make the Awakened win, which is morally satisfying, you had to use the Geneforge, which is not.

And as a wise troubadour once said – “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.”

 

 

That’s about as far as I can go without spoiling.

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The first games were not made for shaper sympathising really. On the first i dont see anyone going for the obeyers on the first playthrough. But unlike the first, all horrors you see in the second is the direct result of breaking shaper laws. But even then the serviles have the moral high end i suppose.

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I've been a shaper man my whole life. G1 - Obeyers. G2 - Shaper, G3 - Shaper, G4 - Antishaper and hated the game. Stopped playing. G5 - Unaligned but shaper leaning - loving it.

 

I can't fathom why people are unable to look past small, insignificant details and see the greater picture. Every single time someone goes against shaper convention you end up with a massive problem. Small things such as the G3 fungus plague that affects some random villager sidequest, and big things such as the geneforge itself that results in an entire game series with all the unnecessary deaths that entails.

 

Perhaps I am heartless though (or canister crazy?). I struggle to empathise with little brown-robed blobs of pixels.

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Played GF4, GF5 and part GF3 (still playing it). I always side with the rebels but they do some awful stuff. In GF3, I may actually side with the Shapers. I'll see how it goes.

It's not a good choice and a bad choice. It's choosing from two horrible choices. Good people exist in both sides and get killed and bad people exist in both sides and exploit the rivalry.

 

 

PS. I consider the story of GF4 to be the best, but that may be because it was the first I played. But I was the game I found I was more invested in helping the rebels there and defeat the evil mage empire that was killing my friends and enslaving sentient creatures since the first 5 minutes.

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Thank you all for replying. Unfortunately, I can't read 70% of this thread as from a quick skim it seems there are a lot of spoilers!

 

In any case, I've nearly finished G2 now - just entered Benerii-Uss. Such a fun game (Gazers + Eyebeast FTW! I initially thought I made a poor choice when compared to the Drakons, but now I'm eating Drakons for lunch).

 

Looking forward to playing G3 through to G5 within the next few months.

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I agree. But I bet GF2 itself is showing you (or will show you before the end) an answer to your original question....had the Shaper laws been obeyed originally, there would be no Drakons nor any hint of what they are planning to do to the world. That's a reason to at least consider siding with the Shapers, and why someone would think about it. And regardless of that I hope you are having a good time...GF2 was a great game.

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fair enough, i've gone ahead and spoiler-tagged part of that answer. there's lots of examples of Shaper authorities being useless at their jobs even from g2 though. and i mean what they did with sucia in g1 didn't exactly work out either

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I realize this thread started with a narrower quesiton and a request for no spoilers. But talking about big philosophical questions about a five-game series that began 15 years ago, and avoiding spoilers, seems pretty impossible.

 

Given the concerns, I am just going to split this thread into a no spoilers and spoilers version.

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Thanks for the split - I'll go read the other thread when I'm finished with the series. :)

 

I've just reached Dhonal's Isle in G3.

 

I agree. But I bet GF2 itself is showing you (or will show you before the end) an answer to your original question....had the Shaper laws been obeyed originally, there would be no Drakons nor any hint of what they are planning to do to the world. That's a reason to at least consider siding with the Shapers, and why someone would think about it. And regardless of that I hope you are having a good time...GF2 was a great game.

 

You're right re. the laws. Although I still think if you make creations who are capable of independent thought you shouldn't use them as slaves.

 

Also, I end up abusing the shaper laws anyway to get my hands on the powerful creations. :p

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Sure. But it doesn't count when we do it. Anyway, I hope I was able to answer your original question about why anyone would side with the Shapers. How did you end up aligned in G2?

 

Yes thank you. Also there was a servile sect who got their hands on magic which also highlights what happens when there's no regulation.

 

I joined the Barzhites in the end. No way would I have chosen the Takers of course. The awakened also made sense to me but I figured that if I don't get my hands on powerful creations there will be no one who can stop the Takers (except perhaps the Barzhites).

 

If you're already in dohnals i gotta say speed demon. But g3 also is the best game to move you for the shapers.

 

I'm already a bit pro-shaper in fact. Destroying a school was very ISISesque.

 

Yeah I'm going as fast as I can given I have 4 days off work thanks to a public and bridged holiday. Once these are over and my girlfriend finishes her exams I'll resume gaming at this speed sometime in August.

 

Maybe I can finish off G3 in 4 days :D

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GF3 (I'm in the middle of the 2nd island) From a Role playing point of view, or if you want, just the point of view I had in the opening... whether it is thought of as a military academy or school, in the Tutorial I see corpses of people that haven't harmed a creation (yet) and are my classmates. Sure, I didn't know them it gives a feeling of "someone is killing my friends". That moved me to somewhat pro-Shaper and I haven't seen the rebels yet doing something good and just enough to justify a change of course from my part.

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GF3 (I'm in the middle of the 2nd island) From a Role playing point of view, or if you want, just the point of view I had in the opening... whether it is thought of as a military academy or school, in the Tutorial I see corpses of people that haven't harmed a creation (yet) and are my classmates. Sure, I didn't know them it gives a feeling of "someone is killing my friends". That moved me to somewhat pro-Shaper and I haven't seen the rebels yet doing something good and just enough to justify a change of course from my part.

 

I believe I've read that the Rebels don't really appear justified at all until the final choice has already been made. By that stage if you've already sided with them then it doesn't matter and if you haven't then you'll never see the 'just' side of their rebellion.

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Given that people will be reading this thread starting with the first post, I think the spoiler guidelines in that post need to be adhered to.

 

(You live by the demand for no spoilers, you die by the demand for no spoilers. I think it's silly to do it in the first place given how long it's been since the series ended, but if you're gonna do it, do it in a way that respects new readers of the thread. Thanks.)

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I don't think it's silly and I'm glad you made the decision to split the thread (the which, thanks for doing!). That way these forums can be friendly to someone like Xurebx, who is experiencing this most excellent series for the first time, even if he's doing it years after the forum regulars. But I don't see why we shouldn't

be able to keep up with Xurebx himself….the first post started with Xurebx partway through GF2, so we could talk about the end of GF1 (as I did); and as he proceeds, we ought to be able to keep up with where he is, something any new reader will surely understand. (And the new reader can stop reading if the thread goes past where he is at the time of reading.)

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Because we want the forums to be friendly not just to Xurebx, but to everyone like him! This thread, while started by Xurebx, is not personally for Xurebx, it's for everyone who comes here and reads it. The title says "NO SPOILERS" and the first post indicates where the cutoff is. Someone might be come here expecting that to be the case, and then scroll down and have something spoiled for them. Not everyone reads threads one post at a time, it's common for people to jump around to get a general overview of a thread and/or look for interesting bits, especially for long threads.

 

If you really insist on having a "spoiler cutoff" that shifts (and unpredictably, too), then just make a new thread every time it changes.

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Was that a reference to my comment? I don't see how anything I said is a spoiler. Clearly there will be a faction choice in the game and discussion about possible feelings after that choice are not spoilery. Especially when I was careful to not detail the time of that final choice or the nature of that final choice or even the effects of that final choice.

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