Geneforge 4 factions. Massive spoilers in this thread.

[Owenmoz]

Ok, so i just repaired moseh(I'm not entirelly sure why. But to be honest the wastern rise is easy to travel and leads to a major outpost right after) I'm planning on killing shaftoe and eliza to make up to the rebels. So my main questions are. Will the shapers still trust me if i give the papers to greta? Will the rebels still trust me if i hand them to miranda? I want to keep everybody friendly and trusting for as long as i can. Usually i'd use the iloveserviles/ihateserviles cheat but i dont think g4 has faction related cheats. Also any tips on killing shaftoe? He is considerably powerfull if i remember right. Even when i start with the minds its insane. So any advice would be welcome

[Nim]

Can't you just make a save before giving the papers to Greta ? FWIW I'm pretty sure repairing Moseh is enough. The rebels will always "trust" you, they don't have much choice. Even if you screw them as bad as you can in chapter 4 with the specs you can still go for the rebel ending.

Re Shaftoe, what difficulty ? And you can delay him a bit no ? Post Monarch maybe ?

[Slawbug]

http://minmax.ermarian.net/g4/g4q.html

 

In particular:

 

Major Quests

 

There are several quests that affect who is willing to work with you (and how they are willing to help you) beyond your reputation score.

• Chapter 2: You must either help or kill Moseh to leave Illya Province. Regardless of which you choose, Alwan and Pirik will both open their routes to you (you can talk to both). If you don't talk to Alwan and get his pass, you'll be shut out from the Shapers for much of the game.
  
• Chapter 3: You must give Monarch's notes to either the Shapers or the Rebels to leave the Fens of Aziraph. Each side requires that you helped them for one or both of the Chapter 2 and 3 quests in order to open their exit route to you (so if you do one for each, you can use both passages).
  
• Chapter 4: Both the Shapers and Rebels will open their routes to you after completing the missions in Quessa-Uss. If you give Alwan the Unbound specifications, the Unbound will be easier to fight later on, but numerous Drakons and other rebels will be hostile to you. If you don't get the specifications, Alwan will still open the Shaper route to you.
  
• Chapter 5: In Northforge Warrens, Miranda gives you the option of permanently allying with the Shapers or remaining with the Rebels. The endgame changes entirely depending on your choice.
  

Expanded Explanations of Complicated Sets of Tasks

• The Barrier Zone: You must choose to either help or kill Moseh -- you cannot do both. In order to help Moseh, you must also help at least one of Eliza and Shaftoe. However, for both Eliza and Shaftoe, you can help them, use them to help Moseh, and then kill them. Pirik will reward you for killing Eliza and Shaftoe even if you help Moseh, but you must resolve the Moseh issue first. Alwan and Pirik will both help you leave Illya Province regardless of whether you help or kill Moseh.
  
• The Burwood Infiltrators: These guys will be unfriendly unless you meet Miranda in the Sentinel Groves, or talk to Alwan or Koerner about the Infiltrators. If you kill any one of them, all the others (and a few other Shaper allegiates) will be unfriendly. (Exploit: Alwan and Koerner can both restore the friendliness of these characters. Koerner can do it once, when he gives you the quest. Alwan can do it repeatedly, but only if you have insufficient reputation to get his first quest.) Koerner and Ossissess have quests that require helping and killing, respectively, all five of them. It should be possible to get Ossissess's quest, help all five, kill all five, restore friendliness by getting Koerner's quest, and then collect the rewards for both quests.
  

[alhoon]

Without reading what the others wrote:

If you helped Moseh, you either give the papes to Greta or you're considered rebel enemy.

If you killed Moseh, you either give the papers to Shapers or you're considered Shaper enemy.

[Nim]

Without reading what the others wrote:

If you helped Moseh, you either give the papes to Greta or you're considered rebel enemy.

This is WRONG.

[Nim]

• Chapter 3: ..... Each side requires that you helped them for one or both of the Chapter 2 and 3 quests in order to open their exit route to you (so if you do one for each, you can use both passages).
  

Wrong for the rebels. I always turn in the caravan, help Moseh and give the papers to the shapers. And Greta gives her speech how I'm not trustworthy and I can't go on and then she changes her mind and allows passage because the rebels in burwood are strong or smth like that.

[Slawbug]

Are you sure? I haven't touched this game in a decade, but I haven't heard any disagreement on that point, before, and most of this information comes directly from the game scripts.

[Nim]

 

begintalknode 42;

state = 20;

nextstate = -1;

condition = gf(100,12) == 1;

question = "The papers were destroyed in the fight. They're gone now. (Lie.)";

text1 = "Greta nods slowly. _I see. I see. That is very ... plausible. Believable, in a way._ But you can plainly see it in her eyes. She doesn't believe you.";

text2 = "_Then it is time for me to give you your next orders. I will proceed north to Burwood Province. You will stay here in the fens. You will fight the Shapers. You will clean up the excess rogues._";

text3 = "_For now, you will need to stay out of rebel-controlled lands. Just a ... precaution. Perhaps, later, we will be able to allow you in. But I think we are safest if you stay here._";

text4 = "You turn to go. As you are about to leave the room, she says, _Wait. I ... I don't have enough help. I do not trust you. And yet I have to trust you. I need to give you one more chance._";

text5 = "_You've done much for us in the past, enough to earn my accepting this ... shaky story. If you betray us, our forces in Burwood are strong enough to deal with you. Go through the north gate. Go north to Derenton Freehold, on the coast._";

text6 = "_If you betray us, well, our forces in Burwood are strong enough to deal with you. Go through the north gate. Go north to Derenton Freehold. It is on the coast. And I curse us for our weakness that makes me have to trust you._";

code =

set_flag(44,13,5);

toggle_quest(65,1);

sf(44,10,1);

toggle_quest(64,3);

if (gf(100,1) < 5)

sf(100,1,5);

if (gf(100,0) <= 90)

rs(6);

else rs(5);

break;

 

Iirc she doesn't say line 5 if you helped only the shapers. I'll be there maybe tomorrow or so, I can make a screen then.

[alhoon]

Well, when I gave the papers to the Shapers and read Greta's speech... I loaded.

[Randomizer]

You can't go to far in helping one side and there is a place after Moseh where Miranda will warn you if you done everything for the Rebels up till then.

[Owenmoz]

Ok thank you guys. Im thinking if only killing eliza for now. I'll go for shaftoe after killing monarch but before giving the papers.

[Owenmoz]

 

begintalknode 42;

state = 20;

nextstate = -1;

condition = gf(100,12) == 1;

question = "The papers were destroyed in the fight. They're gone now. (Lie.)";

text1 = "Greta nods slowly. _I see. I see. That is very ... plausible. Believable, in a way._ But you can plainly see it in her eyes. She doesn't believe you.";

text2 = "_Then it is time for me to give you your next orders. I will proceed north to Burwood Province. You will stay here in the fens. You will fight the Shapers. You will clean up the excess rogues._";

text3 = "_For now, you will need to stay out of rebel-controlled lands. Just a ... precaution. Perhaps, later, we will be able to allow you in. But I think we are safest if you stay here._";

text4 = "You turn to go. As you are about to leave the room, she says, _Wait. I ... I don't have enough help. I do not trust you. And yet I have to trust you. I need to give you one more chance._";

text5 = "_You've done much for us in the past, enough to earn my accepting this ... shaky story. If you betray us, our forces in Burwood are strong enough to deal with you. Go through the north gate. Go north to Derenton Freehold, on the coast._";

text6 = "_If you betray us, well, our forces in Burwood are strong enough to deal with you. Go through the north gate. Go north to Derenton Freehold. It is on the coast. And I curse us for our weakness that makes me have to trust you._";

code =

set_flag(44,13,5);

toggle_quest(65,1);

sf(44,10,1);

toggle_quest(64,3);

if (gf(100,1) < 5)

sf(100,1,5);

if (gf(100,0) <= 90)

rs(6);

else rs(5);

break;

 

Iirc she doesn't say line 5 if you helped only the shapers. I'll be there maybe tomorrow or so, I can make a screen then.

 

 

I remember her giving the same speach even if i kill moseh. But general crowley gives you an alternative route to borrowood he says you can use it if the rebels are against you. So i assume there is a possibility for them to actually disavow you.

[alhoon]

there is a place after Moseh where Miranda will warn you if you done everything for the Rebels up till then

Well, she didn't for me. And Alwan in Porypha doesn't give me the quest to go on or anything, although I gave them Monarch's papers.

 

 

I'm quite sure the rebels can turn against you, aside of Greta's speech. It is pointless to have several rebel places guarded heavily if you're not supposed to fight those under any circumstances.

[Nim]

I remember her giving the same speach even if i kill moseh. But general crowley gives you an alternative route to borrowood he says you can use it if the rebels are against you. So i assume there is a possibility for them to actually disavow you.

The only way to get disawowed by the rebels is by siding with Alwan in the Northforge Warrens. Not counting the autokill when you attack rebels in Northforge before that

 

Well, she didn't for me. And Alwan in Porypha doesn't give me the quest to go on or anything, although I gave them Monarch's papers.

Did you talk to Alwan in Poryphra before going to Quessa-Uss ? Because that sounds like what happens when you don't.

I'm quite sure the rebels can turn against you, aside of Greta's speech. It is pointless to have several rebel places guarded heavily if you're not supposed to fight those under any circumstances.

Then you should have no problem proving this, right ?

[Slawbug]

Nim, thanks for posting the script. From those lines it's very clear what's going on: if you didn't complete either the ch 2 or ch 3 quest for the rebels, they will still let you through IF AND ONLY IF your reputation is at least 10 points towards the rebels. Which is quite hard to achieve if you are going with the shapers for each of the main chapter quests, though it can be done.

[Nim]

I saw that too. But I seriously doubt that I could have been anywhere close on the opinion scale. I really screwed the rebels over every single opportunity. And yet they let me into Burwood.

[Nim]

Just made a quick run for the fens, destroyed the caravan, restored Moseh and gave the papers to the shapers. Opinion solidly pro shaper, got all rewards from Agent Mouawad. Greta dialogue

 

 

 

[Slawbug]

Hmm. Well, that settles that. It's possible I guess that this is a version difference, as that doc definitely dates back to 1.0. But more likely we just missed it. I wonder if the reverse is also true?

[Nim]

I expect most people to stay somewhere in the middle at least in the beginning so this situation probably doesn't happen that often. Trying to follow Crowleys advice of being a good double agent and all.

 

And I'm pretty sure that the shaper side works as intended, if you don't help them enough they will cut you off. At least that's what I remember from that single time I played pro-rebel. You lose out on a lot if you try to play pure rebel compared to pure loyalist.

[Triumph]

Does this mean that you don't have to do anything at all (other than talk to Greta before you leave the Fens) to retain the option to play for the Rebels when you get to Burwood?

 

Talking to Gen. Crowley can yield the following:

 

 

begintalknode 21;

state = 10;

nextstate = -1;

condition = gf(42,13) >= 5 && gf(100,8) < 2;

question = "Can I go north to Burwood Province now?";

text1 = "_Miranda has told me that you have failed us. Just as you failed General Alwan. Though we appreciate your defeat of Shaper Monarch, your persistance in not giving us everything we want is most troubling._";

text2 = "_After long thought, I have decided that you were sincere in your desire to help us. Thus, I am not going to kill you right at this moment. But I am not going to aid you further._";

text3 = "_Do not look to the Shapers for succor. We and you are no longer dealing with each other. Get out of my camp. And, if you return, I might not be so merciful._";

action = END_TALK;

 

 

Looking through the script, I don't see a comparable failure-and-rejection text from Greta. It appears that while you must prove yourself to the Shapers in either Ilya or Aziraph, your default status as a rebel will enable you to skate by, even if they do feel suspicious about you.

 

Edit: if you don't open the Rebel path into Aziraph (by talking to the dude at the safehouse), does THAT lock you out dealing with the rebels?

[Lilith]

• Chapter 4: Both the Shapers and Rebels will open their routes to you after completing the missions in Quessa-Uss. If you give Alwan the Unbound specifications, the Unbound will be easier to fight later on, but numerous Drakons and other rebels will be hostile to you. If you don't get the specifications, Alwan will still open the Shaper route to you.
  

 

Also, note that giving the Unbound specs to Alwan is a really bad idea if you have any intention of going for a non-Shaper ending.

[Nim]

Does this mean that you don't have to do anything at all (other than talk to Greta before you leave the Fens) to retain the option to play for the Rebels when you get to Burwood?

Yes.

Edit: if you don't open the Rebel path into Aziraph (by talking to the dude at the safehouse), does THAT lock you out dealing with the rebels?

Nope. I didn't talk to anyone in the safehouse at all and as you can see from the screenshot above the rebels in the fens are friendly.

Also, note that giving the Unbound specs to Alwan is a really bad idea if you have any intention of going for a non-Shaper ending.

It's fun tho

[alhoon]

Did you talk to Alwan in Poryphra before going to Quessa-Uss ? Because that sounds like what happens when you don't.

 

Yeap. He wasn't giving me the quest, stuff like "stay here and help the infiltrators" while I've done the quests for most of them. I had to go on.

[Owenmoz]

 

 

Also, note that giving the Unbound specs to Alwan is a really bad idea if you have any intention of going for a non-Shaper ending.

 

I was actually considering doing that. Release the unbound enough for the rebelion to survive but kill give shapers a considerable chance at you know...not being slaughtered.

[Owenmoz]

And yes. After aziraph the shaper side will cut you off if you killed moseh and if you didnt give them the papers. The infiltrators and poryphra are hostile.

[Lilith]

I was actually considering doing that. Release the unbound enough for the rebelion to survive but kill give shapers a considerable chance at you know...not being slaughtered.

 

If you want to do that, there's a very specific way to do it and it requires that you haven't given the specs to the Shapers.

[alhoon]

Best ending from the 3 I've seen in GF4...

[Owenmoz]

Best ending from the 3 I've seen in GF4...

Tends to end up with me dead.

[alhoon]

Yeap, but you die a hero!

[Owenmoz]

Yeap, but you die a hero!

Yeap... Rather be a live tyrant than a dead hero. Im shallow and petty like that xD

[alhoon]

Oh, no. Not that kind of hero. Not the celebrated kind. You die reviled by many and inglorious, but some people think that you did a good thing.