Kyshakk Koan Valdain the King Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 http://venturebeat.com/2015/04/27/apple-doesnt-care-why-one-longtime-indie-role-playing-game-maker-has-left-ios/ So yeah, that thread was funny. I liked the part about the end where jeff says everyone is going to poke fun at him. The word noob is always funny and especially when you are busting on yourself. I hope that he doesnt get ridiculed too much for it as it is not exactly his fault. GiantFriendlyTalkingSpiderman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Edgwyn Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Jeff has always been honest about his strengths (Story telling and design) and weaknesses (programming) and it definitely sounds like the right business decision. GiantFriendlyTalkingSpiderman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Tycho Maudd Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 So we finally got a reason for why the old Apps still work and the new ones don't. Things like this make me glad I switched my computers away from Apple (For me it was first the switch to OSX making everything I had obsolete, then once I got everything settled in, PPC was ousted). Almost makes me regret going for iOS on my mobile devices if Apple is going to keep doing this every few years. This is one thing that Microsoft did get right: backwards compatablility. Other than 16-bit programs not working on 64-bit OSes (even then, DOSbox or VMware takes care of that), I've been able to get every old game I've wanted to play to work under Windows7 with a few tweaks. GiantFriendlyTalkingSpiderman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 that's pretty much how GOG.com makes money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenderfoot Thahd acis Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 So we finally got a reason for why the old Apps still work and the new ones don't. Have we? Do the previous games not need to register touches on the screen? Or make a window? Or rotate? All sounds a bit disingenuous to me to be frank. And to read that he only tested on 8.2, when 8.3 had been in beta for half a year is just bizarre. Plus the stuff stating "the most important thing to realize about Apple products is that they are designed to become obsolete fairly quickly" is juvenile stuff: the very original iPod, which must be about 15 years old at this stage, is still supported by the latest iTunes for example. It's his decision to stop developing for iOS but the old "blame the tools" argument is really quite naff: every game I've ever bought (i.e. over five years) is working on iPad with iOS 8.3 as far as I can see. Except Jeff's new one. Yes, that must be Apple's fault ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Jeff, in some recent games, has code to take over functions like the cursor in game and replace it with his own so it does additional functions like change sprites between melee and missile. So the interaction between his code and the OS could be causing some problems. Jeff doesn't do much testing himself, but relies on testers that have different machines and operating system versions. So he would have needed a tester that also had the 8.3 beta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Have we? Yes. As he explained, the older apps use legacy 32-bit code which new apps are no longer allowed to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenderfoot Thahd acis Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Yes. As he explained, the older apps use legacy 32-bit code which new apps are no longer allowed to use. Okay, but my overall point stands, he's not being completely frank - there were two changes made, the switch in cpu architecture ten years ago, which created a need for re-coding on one single platform, and now this switch to 64bit. That's not "every few years", it's twice in a lifetime. Basically everyone else has survived this apparent "upheaval" (including myself as it happens). And Windows too is just about accommodating 32bit at the moment but won't continue to do so, when it completely switches to 64bit, I presume that will be the end of new games on windows too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 And Windows too is just about accommodating 32bit at the moment but won't continue to do so, when it completely switches to 64bit, I presume that will be the end of new games on windows too? Could be. Jeff's talked for a while about having trouble keeping up with changing technology and not being sure how many games he has left in him. So far he's managed to keep on keepin' on, but he's going to retire eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Tycho Maudd Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Windows too is just about accommodating 32bit at the moment but won't continue to do so, when it completely switches to 64bit, I presume that will be the end of new games on windows too? The version of windows that stops supporting 32-bit, if it comes anytime soon will be the version no corporation will buy. Jeff has it right that windows is so popular with business because of backwards compatibility. Up until last year, nearly every ATM in the U.S. Was still using XP. Where I work we still run some software (used to control equipment) made over 20 years ago that runs just fine under windows 7 still. If we look at Apple and the Mac over that time we've had 68k to PPC (nearly seemless) Classic to OSX (terrible when it first came out) then PPC to Intel (reasonable until 10.7) There is no reasonable way to run old software Apple software in any actually productive way. I personally got sick of all the upheavals with the drop of PPC, figuring that if I have to get x86, to get something that doesn't drop all support of everything developed every so often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Necris Omega Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 I'm still baffled by how Apple can function this way. Regardless of the platform, notions of backwards compatibility are kinda Comp. Sci 101. And really, from the sounds of things, this level of change should have prompted some extreme notice on their part. It doesn't seem like anyone bothered to tell Jeff at the very least. Again, sorry to hear that Jeff's been driven out of a market, but if the technology has mutated beyond usability and the market's twisted to the point where the effort involved in unraveling the chaos isn't justified... well, what can you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenderfoot Thahd acis Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 I'm still baffled by how Apple can function this way. Regardless of the platform, notions of backwards compatibility are kinda Comp. Sci 101. And really, from the sounds of things, this level of change should have prompted some extreme notice on their part. It doesn't seem like anyone bothered to tell Jeff at the very least As I said earlier, apps from five years ago are still running fine. This isn't an issue about backwards compatibility, it appears, rather, to be an issue about Jeff not being all that bothered developing for ipad. I probably should explain, I work as an IT Architect and am responsible for ios apps amonst other things (windows, linux, etc). I know Apple do not just suddenly do anything, there's constant information flowing from them, developer guidelines, updates, videos, sample code, beta access and so on: Jeff's remarks strike me as coming from someone who simply was never that bothered at paying attention and now finds it convenient to blame someone else. Edit: And just to add, I think the ios market does stink, and is full of utter excrement, so can, at the same time, appeciate Jeff's frustration. But that's not Apple's fault, nor developers, it's people, people continuing to buy these terrible free to play thrash that has fueled that dominance on the market. And so it is vexing to see someone throw in the towel in the face of that; the less options, the less likely it will ever change. But that's obviously my own selfish interest in this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenderfoot Thahd acis Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 And for further info, before i leave this, as I just went and checked my notes, it was announced last October by Apple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slarti Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 A lot of the feelings about Apple's constant switches do not derive solely from this one situation. Apple has made a big, obsolescence-inviting switch in software or hardware every couple of years since the 90's. A lot of those switches were made for good reasons, and had good results overall, but that doesn't change the fact that the impact is going to be negative for some users. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 It's the difference on handling backwards compatibility between Apple which is willing to support it for a few years before dropping it and Microsoft that would like to drop support, but doesn't to keep its customers. Apple had Classic version to support OS 9 software, the switch from Power PC CPU to Intel with Rosetta to support Power PC software, and now no support for older software in the newer operating systems. Apple is instead working to make the OS run across all its platforms. Microsoft has had so many bugs in Windows from its start that it has to keep backwards compatibility to help convince customers to upgrade. Otherwise why upgrade when all your other programs no longer work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Apple believes in dragging customers kicking and screaming into their bold future. It's paid off for them. Microsoft believes in making sure customers aren't forced into giving up anything. It's also paid off for them. —Alorael, who sees both as valid corporate strategies. And both of them have costs. Apple loses people who want off the treadmill. Microsoft loses people who don't want to deal with all the quirks of archaic stuff hanging around forever. And the stereotypes of Apple-loving hipster vs. corporate Windows drone derive in part from just these differences. Slarti 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Tycho Maudd Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Microsoft has had so many bugs in Windows from its start that it has to keep backwards compatibility to help convince customers to upgrade. Otherwise why upgrade when all your other programs no longer work. I'd just like to point out that the early MacOS had some nasty "features" too, but even back then Apple dropped support to fix them (anyone remember "32-bit clean"?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenderfoot Thahd acis Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 How does any of this affect the topic at hand? You can still release 32bit iOS apps, you simply must also support 64bit - Apple's own XCode (which is free by the way) automatically compiles the 64bit version for you. To try present Apple as not supporting developers is just wrong. Plus, as I mentioned, the need to support 64bit was not "sprung" on Jeff, it was announced last year on their developer site and through an email. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Tycho Maudd Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 How does any of this affect the topic at hand? You can still release 32bit iOS apps, you simply must also support 64bit - Apple's own XCode (which is free by the way) automatically compiles the 64bit version for you. To try present Apple as not supporting developers is just wrong. Plus, as I mentioned, the need to support 64bit was not "sprung" on Jeff, it was announced last year on their developer site and through an email. From what has been said by Jeff, the 64-bit version work up to 8.2, but something in the 8.3 update broke it. His reason for why the old ones still work is because the 32-bit APIs were frozen and not updated. Jeff has also stated that he does not have the time or incentive to redo the engine to make it work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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