I am starting to lose all hopes in spiderweb...

[WLDD]

Spiderweb did not expand at all from its begining, only artwork sounds and such... and that is not much, they could become great company but what they are doing? Making this simple games... They do not invest in future programs and programers...

 

*Love is one reason to leave*

*Cheryl Cole - "You're gonna catch me if I fall down*

[Lilith]

It's a company run by one person with two employees, focused on making turn-based RPGs, because that's the kind of game the lead developer likes and knows how to make and that's the market niche he's targeting. I'm not sure what you're expecting them to do that they're not already doing, because they've been pretty clear about what their goals are, and "investing in future programs and programmers" isn't really among them. Sorry.

[Aran]

Spiderweb is basically one developer. Expanding beyond that would require a significant and risky investment (both time and money) just to try and enter a different market they have never competed in before. You see, games only turn a profit after they're finished, and outside of taking pre-orders or using something like Kickstarter you have no idea how much it'll make.

 

(Edit: I can't find a good source on this now, so take it with a grain of salt.) It's been said that Blades of Avernum sold so poorly that the company was saved by the success of Avernum 4. If a single game could be that much of a risk, how much worse would it be if he hired more developers/artists and greatly increased the production costs?

[Lilith]

Spiderweb does occasionally look around for artists, but it turns out there are actually very few people doing professional-quality art of the kind Spiderweb games need for non-exorbitant prices. Add "can be trusted not to flake out in the middle of a project and leave Spiderweb holding the bag" and the talent pool suddenly gets even smaller.

[WLDD]

Spiderweb is basically one developer. Expanding beyond that would require a significant and risky investment (both time and money) just to try and enter a different market they have never competed in before. You see, games only turn a profit after they're finished, and outside of taking pre-orders or using something like Kickstarter you have no idea how much it'll make.

 

(Edit: I can't find a good source on this now, so take it with a grain of salt.) It's been said that Blades of Avernum sold so poorly that the company was saved by the success of Avernum 4. If a single game could be that much of a risk, how much worse would it be if he hired more developers/artists and greatly increased the production costs?

For this I will tell you what my dad told me: "If you do not try you'll never know if you can do it" So if the y don't expand, one day they will disappear or they will just stay in our memories as nice games from our childhood.

[*i]

As others have pointed out, there's a risk of expanding. When you're appealing to a niche market, you really need to consider he capacity of the market you have.

 

But I think you're missing one key point here is that Jeff seems to be happy with his life situation as it is. Bigger does not necessarily mean better. The amount of profit is not the only thing that matters. If Jeff grows his company, he'll have to spend more time managing people. I can't speak for Jeff in this regard, but based on some things he's said in the past I suspect if he had to be a full time manager, that would sap the enjoyment Jeff gets out of producing games. Sure, more money is nice, but if it comes at the expense of happiness and life fulfillment, did you really come out ahead?

 

Point is everyone has different goals. Some people want to change the world and leave a legacy. That's fine; we need some people like that. Others want to raise a family and have an enjoyable job while doing it. That's perfectly okay too.

[Jerakeen]

It's not as if Jeff could really hire people to do what he does; he's more of a writer than a programmer. He'll create a body of work, and when he's done, that will be it. Someone else could take over the name and continue publishing, but they wouldn't be true Spiderweb games.

 

This would be like telling Frank Herbert that he should invest in the future and hire more writers. Yeah that would suck.

[WLDD]

You didn't fully understand me, I don't talk about having more money, I just expect something more from spiderweb, I don't say that Jeff should have his own private life and such, if is now on his level of programming knowledge, he could hire him to do everything about expanding... Just to continue where he started if he can't do it... I'm pretty tired now to continue this quoting... I'll see later what to add to this...

[*i]

So are you saying he should grow his company as an end to itself?

 

That would imply that there is an inherent value in larger company versus a smaller one. I find this notion rather odd. If you want to increase your sales, and think that expanding will increase your profits, then expanding makes sense. If either is not true, he'd be doing it for the sake of doing it, and that makes neither personal nor business sense.

 

Furthermore, there are risks with growing a company. You can hire a professional manager, but this person is expensive and a risk. I know someone who tried this and it bankrupted his company. His error was that he spent too much time out in the field trying to get investors, and not enough paying attention to the manager back home. By the time the mistake became apparent, it was too late to save the company. It's unlikely he'll ever be able to do it again because potential investors do not look too kindly at such a failure, and he's going to need millions to design and deploy his product. So I'm very skeptical you can ever just hire someone for doing something where you bear the ultimate responsibility.

 

Jeff has a much lower capital hurdle than my fellow colleague, but I doubt Jeff could simply go back to writing games the way he did. If his company does end up bankrupt (a very real possibility), then he'd have to start over. This is not too bad for a single person in his 20's. When you're in your 40's and have a family, getting started from scratch is not easy at all.

[Alorael at Large]

For this I will tell you what my dad told me: "If you do not try you'll never know if you can do it" So if the y don't expand, one day they will disappear or they will just stay in our memories as nice games from our childhood.

But Jeff doesn't seem to want to do it. He's happy with his current size. He hates working for people and he's not keen on having people work for him.

 

More importantly, he's been doing this since 1994. That's almost twenty years, and he's doing just fine. Better than he ever has with his newest games, in fact. Right now things are going well, but expanding is a risk, and one that might well make the company disappear. On the other hand, as things are going it's not looking like Spiderweb will disappear anytime soon. I think Jeff just sees no reason to expand, especially now when he's raking in money at his current size.

 

—Alorael, who would not expect "more" from Spiderweb because "exactly this" is the niche Jeff has worked in for two decades. He knows it and it works for him. He has no reason to start competing against more experienced companies making games he has no experience making and alienating the fans who love the current isometric turn-based games he writes.

[keira]

what do you think his profit margin is. remember, this isn't just his hobby, it's his job. he and the company tank on a game, they're kinda screwed. it could be that a fourth employee is the difference between the poorhouse, or merely a ramen diet until A4.

[Randomizer]

Jeff blogged back in 2009 his expenses and return for an average game:

Part 1

Part 2

 

While his recent games have higher sales numbers, they also have more sales at a lower price than Jeff gets from his own site and he has reduced prices there too. He needs to have a significant increase in sales to hire another full time employee to do software coding. Also he needs profits to cover the employee's salary for the year before the new game is released.

[Student of Trinity]

Whatever Jeff is doing, he's been doing it for around twenty years now. I've never run a business of any kind for even one year. I wouldn't dream of giving Jeff business advice.

[Vexivero]

I'm with Trinity on this one. Until you actually experience entrepreneurship for yourself, don't criticize others who are actually living it. You don't know what Jeff's mindset is on the matter and what he's experienced. Many entrepreneurs don't want to expand until they become a corporation, they like the feel of being a mom and pop business. It's not all about the money, it's the gratification you get out of doing what you do.

 

I don't know if Jeff micromanages and how detail-oriented he is, but I'm guessing he's somewhat into that as people have said he doesn't like working for others and doesn't like many working for him. I can relate, as I'm sure many on here can, in that I am more confident relying on myself as opposed to somebody I have to "trust". I trust my own work ethic and skills more than anybody else's.

 

Besides, 20,700 people on just a "mailing list" is pretty good.

 

—Vexivero, who still has the utmost respect for any entrepreneur. Entrepreneurs are some of, if not the hardest workers out there.

[adc.]

Jeff likes the game he makes exactly as he wants it to be.

He intentionally makes the game a retro-style RPG.

 

With a few engine and graphic upgrades, behold.

But a handful still liked his games' days of old.

 

This thread will have the same answers, although, myriad.

But remember, it's all the same, period.

-----

-Nightwatcher

[Alorael at Large]

If he had the resources, and if it were possible to do single-handedly, I think Jeff might happily compete in a more upscale game market. But given his limitations, including the self-imposed ones of working largely alone and within his own capabilities, Jeff has carved out and done well by his niche. Anything else would require both risk and change in practices. He might be willing to hazard one or the other, but not both.

 

—Alorael, who can't blame him. It's hard enough to find a way to be neither a leader nor a follower in a company. Once you find it, rocking the boat does seem like a bad idea.

[Earth]

when his kids inherit company things might change but until then things stay same as they are atm.

[RainbowDashRadical]

when his kids inherit company things might change but until then things stay same as they are atm.

 

Is his kids going to do game development?

[Lilith]

I don't know if Jeff micromanages

 

one of his two employees is his wife, so I sure hope not

[WLDD]

when his kids inherit company things might change but until then things stay same as they are atm.

Maybe

[BMA]

Is his kids going to do game development?

 

It would be great if they make developing games a family tradition. And I'm sure children would kill for a dad who makes games for a living.

[Sudanna]

I find it more likely that Jeff would sell his company and retire at some point than keep it until he dies.

[nikki.]

I find it more likely that Jeff would sell his company and retire at some point than keep it until he dies.

 

Yeah, at some point I imagine he'll stop making new games and just ensure the older ones continue to run for a bit. Then, he'll probably stop completely, and I reckon at that point, SW will just stop being an active company.

[Kelandon]

I've worried that Jeff might retire (and then there might be no new games!), but if I remember the story correctly, he started doing Exile in 1994-ish as he finished grad school, which would put him probably still shy of 50. That means that we've got a while yet before he gets around to retiring.

 

More likely is that he gets to be successful enough at selling these games that he no longer needs to make them at quite the same clip and can relax a little more. We've already seen some slowdown in game release schedules; that may be the new normal.

 

You can get a little of a sense how Jeff and Mariann work on the games together by reading the Avadon 2 scripts. There are still comments from one to the other in the scripts.

[Randomizer]

I think Jeff's been trying or at least hoping to sell the company. Since it expanded into tablet versions that are selling well due to a lack of competition, the chances of a sale have increased.

[Alorael at Large]

I think Jeff's been trying or at least hoping to sell the company. Since it expanded into tablet versions that are selling well due to a lack of competition, the chances of a sale have increased.

Based on? Unless he could get enough to retire, he doesn't really seem to have the inclination or skills to do anything but games, and he'd rather do it the way he does than for a company. And his two-decae brand is worth a great deal to him, I'd say.

 

—Alorael, who doubts Spiderweb is really sellable anyway. Its IP is only lucrative when compared within the indie world, and the indie world just isn't big on buying others' IP. And a large part of its value is Jeff himself, who isn't really a transferrable asset.

[Slawbug]

I too would like to hear if that speculation is based on anything in particular, Randomizer.

[Randomizer]

I thought Jeff mentioned it back in the Avernum 5 to 6 era. Something about sell out and starting over with new games back when he was scraping by in order to make more money on his older games. It might have just been wishful thinking that a larger company would buy him out and have the resources to sell the games with better distribution than what he had at the time.

[springacres]

Actually, a larger company might just try to keep the Spiderweb brand and totally revamp the games into something we wouldn't recognize. I can hope not, but...

[Jerakeen]

I vaguely remember reading something like that, but I didn't take it as serious. More like "I wish someone would just give me millions of dollars so I could retire."

[springacres]

I vaguely remember reading something like that, but I didn't take it as serious. More like "I wish someone would just give me millions of dollars so I could retire."

And don't we all wish that at some point or other... I know I have. *G*

[Alorael at Large]

Actually, a larger company might just try to keep the Spiderweb brand and totally revamp the games into something we wouldn't recognize. I can hope not, but...

But I can't imagine a company spending much on the brand. The games have very small niches, much smaller than any company with money to throw around would bother throwing money at.

 

—Alorael, who would like to get millions of dollars. He might get bored with retirement, but it sure would be nice to have the option. And freedom to quit brings a great deal of peace of mind.

[Lilith]

But I can't imagine a company spending much on the brand. The games have very small niches, much smaller than any company with money to throw around would bother throwing money at.

 

it's not like microtransaction-based social games are expensive to make. if you want to go that direction with the brand then you're effectively buying an audience of a few thousand people who'll at least look at whatever you're making and maybe give it good word of mouth if they like it (and some will; c'mon, admit it, there are some of you here who also play Farmville). i'm not sure how much that's worth in monetary terms though; probably not a whole lot

[Slawbug]

The Avernum 5 to 6 era was 2007 to 2009. Given how dramatically the company's position has shifted in the course of the Avadon and AEFTP platform expansions, I find it very strange to start rumours about buying and selling based on 4 to 6 year old information.

[Randomizer]

The rumors started back when the company had returned to profitability with Avernum 4, but Geneforge 4 was what Jeff calls an average sales game. At that point I could see Jeff willing to sell out if he could find a buyer. It wasn't that much later that he raised prices from $25 to 28 to keep up with expenses.

[Alorael at Large]

And then he lowered prices dramatically to keep up with expenses. Economics, amirite?

 

—Alorael, who now imagines that Jeff occasionally lolls about in his bathtub full of very small bills.

[Randomizer]

I think after the release of The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug, Jeff might consider sliding down a pile of coins.

[*i]

The market conditions certainly changed dramatically in the last few years. The rise of online distribution mechanisms such as Steam has simultaneously granted an unprecedented way to advertise while lowering the expectation of what the price per game should be. Thankfully, Jeff has been able to find a sweet spot and come out ahead.

 

Also, I suspect the distribution costs are much lower. Things got easier and cheaper when you didn't have to do most of your business by mail as it was in the mid to late 1990s. Nowadays, other services like Steam handle all of that, and I there's a nice economy of scale there such that I speculate Jeff comes out ahead.

[Aran]

 

 

it's not like microtransaction-based social games are expensive to make. if you want to go that direction with the brand then you're effectively buying an audience of a few thousand people who'll at least look at whatever you're making and maybe give it good word of mouth if they like it (and some will; c'mon, admit it, there are some of you here who also play Farmville). i'm not sure how much that's worth in monetary terms though; probably not a whole lot

 

microtransaction-based social games

 

nope

[Lilith]

i'm just sayin', if somebody thinks spiderweb is worth buying that's probably what they'll want it for. i have seriously seen some of the most obscure old 90s RPGs revived as phone games with IAP-based business models

[Lilith]

i'm just sayin', if somebody thinks spiderweb is worth buying that's probably what they'll want it for. i have seriously seen some of the most obscure old 90s RPGs revived as phone games with IAP-based business models

 

why would someone like that post. what is there to like about it

[WLDD]

I think Jeff's been trying or at least hoping to sell the company. Since it expanded into tablet versions that are selling well due to a lack of competition, the chances of a sale have increased.

Than the games will lose their heart... They won't be same anymore...

[adc.]

why would someone like that post. what is there to like about it

Because it's Aran?

-----

-Nigtwatcher

[MMXPERT-seraph of thermodynamics]

I myself love the older games for their older graphics, and there are many more from where I came from. Jeff has an audience, for all of his games.

 

have this too

 

I would kill for a 3D version of a spiderweb game though, but with all the old mechanics, and possibly old 3D graphics as well.

[WLDD]

I myself love the older games for their older graphics, and there are many more from where I came from. Jeff has an audience, for all of his games.

 

have this too

 

I would kill for a 3D version of a spiderweb game though, but with all the old mechanics, and possibly old 3D graphics as well.

Yeah that would be pretty awesome Imagine Avernum world as World of Warcraft one?

[Slawbug]

Suddenly the title of the old "World of Avernum" RP seems infelicitously chosen indeed.

[Dikiyoba]

People have been suggesting SW MMORPGs for years. Usually Geneforge, but Avernum comes up as well. How is it "suddenly" an inappropriate name?

 

Also, Dikiyoba is revoking Arancaytar's license to like posts.

[Slawbug]

It was just a joking line, really. But since you ask: I didn't say it was suddenly inappropriate, I said it suddenly seemed different, i.e., having now heard to World of Warcraft suggestion *specifically*, rather than MMOs in general, the name appears in a new light. But again, joke.

[MMXPERT-seraph of thermodynamics]

you know...one could make an MMO using all the existing graphics, formulas, dialogues, etc.

Leaving only the multiplayer part to be worked on.

 

unbalanced? Who cares! It would be crazy fun. Imagine making a party with each member being a real player? imagine shaper/rebel/empire/avernum conflicts with real players,especially those choices where both factions get different missions in one area. Imagine all the value seemingly worthless artifacts would get! Imagine the unsellable throwels!

 

Oh well, it will never happen. (OR WILL IT)

[Alorael at Large]

The fact that turn-based anything falls apart with more than a few players is also an obstacle. Spiderweb engines are absolutely not set up for real-time combat.

 

—Alorael, who fully expects this to happen only when Jeff has exhausted all other possibilities for milking money out of people who want games.