Avadon vs. Avernum:EfTP

[lothyr]

Was debating buying Avadon. Watched the trailer and it looked a lot like Avernum:EfTP?

 

Is this the case? I saw ogres, talent trees, etc. basically same as EfTP...

[Lilith]

There are quite a few similarities in terms of game mechanics, although there are also differences; Avadon has five character classes, for example, each with a different skill tree. There's also a lot of art assets reused between games, since they're all made by one guy on a shoestring budget. Plotwise, they're quite different.

[mouton]

Avadon is more linear and story focused. AEftP is much more sandboxy - you wander around a big world trying to find that one place where things will not brutally muder you.

 

Both games are excellent, but they are quite different. Yes, they have a lot of the same art. That's how one-man development works.

[Val Ritz]

Quick bit of advice: they have very different movement styles.

[Death Knight]

Avadon has a much better story in my opinion but lacks class customization. Avernum lack any reliable story but character customization is about as endless as Eschalon. That says a lot for that because Eschalon/Avernum are some of the best. If you like customizing characters and making your own unique classes you might be familiar with this. Fallout 1 and 2, Eschalon, The Quest and Avernum are the best with that.

 

If however, you are into really awesome gameplay in battles, Avadon is hands down better.

 

I prefer Avadon because thats just a very good mix of everything in rpgs I like. Im not going to say that Avernum isn't good. Its just like was said-"If you want to slowly but surely find enemies who you can take out while dodging ones that murder you, Avernum is awesome. The reason being is that when you get to a higher lvl you can actually appreciate the fact that your characters are tough/gone through a lot from getting this far.

 

They are both darn good games.

[Alorael at Large]

Avernum doesn't lack any reliable story. It doesn't have a linear story, though. What it has much more of is character to the world. Avadon is a fairly bland fantasy setting, serviceable but not imaginative. Avernum is quite different and seeing cave life is interesting.

 

—Alorael, who would get the "big, free demos" that Spiderweb touts so much and try them both. Decide for yourself.

[Death Knight]

Avernum doesn't lack any reliable story. It doesn't have a linear story, though. What it has much more of is character to the world. Avadon is a fairly bland fantasy setting, serviceable but not imaginative. Avernum is quite different and seeing cave life is interesting.

 

—Alorael, who would get the "big, free demos" that Spiderweb touts so much and try them both. Decide for yourself.

 

One of the things I never could understand was why linear is sometimes considered a really bad thing to many people. For me, while I like Avernum's roleplaying and freedom of skills/stats better than Avadon, the linear approach just works much better for me. Its usually always that way.

 

Most of the time my biggest problems with nonlinear are from the fact of the learning curve mixed in with it. Take baldurs gate series for example. A non d and d player at the time, it was a fairly difficult game to figure out. The rules are bogus and THACO means nothing. It took my best friend and me combined numerous amount of times to figure it out. On top of the fact that you could easily go somewhere where you get trumped makes matters worse.

 

Now Ive gotten through the game 7 times and a few times even solo but the moral of the story is that linear can sometimes be not only a lifesaver but a good thing.

 

The only time it doesn't really matter is when its fallout, eschalon or planescape, the quest because frankly they are somewhat easy in difficulty. The Quest is hard and brutal but its fairly straightforward where you are supposed to go even though nonlinear.

 

Some people called Lionheart Legacy of the Crusader terrible because of the linear storyline. The rating on gog is terrible compared to other games of that era. I thought it was a little hard but I managed to complete it last week. There seems to be a pattern here.

[Alorael at Large]

Most of the time my biggest problems with nonlinear are from the fact of the learning curve mixed in with it. Take baldurs gate series for example. A non d and d player at the time, it was a fairly difficult game to figure out. The rules are bogus and THACO means nothing. It took my best friend and me combined numerous amount of times to figure it out. On top of the fact that you could easily go somewhere where you get trumped makes matters worse.

You seem to be conflating three different objections. One is to abstruse rules, which is definitely a weakness of Baldur's Gate and other D&D games. Another is to difficulty (or lack thereof). They're linked to each other but not the same, and neither is really the same as linearity.

 

But, as Jeff himself has blogged, linearity means more control on where the party goes and what it faces, which means the designer can more carefully balance encounters against the plausible poewr level of the party. And the story can progress more linearly as well, which helps for the kind of beginning to end, one event after another type of story that we're most familiar with.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't even see linear and open as incompatible, story-wise .You can have a linear story with freedom to explore geographically. Similarly you can have a geographically constrained game with a story that is reactive, or player-provided, or in some way not fed by the designers to the gamers.

[Randomizer]

Jeff has tried to add linearity to remakes of his open world games. There are now several new quests that guide players to where he wants them to go in order to advance the main quest line. If you primarily do those quests you see the main story and keep close to the level for encounters.

 

Beta testers only see part of the game at a time so they tend to be completionists. We wind up being a few levels higher than the average player because until the next part is ready for testing we go and do everything even if it kills us a few times figuring out a way to do it.

[dave s]

Avernum has a much more alive world. It feels real, the people you meet are interesting, from the random blacksmith to the King. Avadon has a linear story which helps keep it tight. The story of Avernum is often buried deep in conversation trees, sometimes in conversations with random blacksmiths or innkeepers. The party themselves have no personality. Avadon's party members are real characters.

 

The skill tree is much better in Avernum. Avadon's skill tree is basically thrown together randomly.

 

Graphics are virtually identical. I'd love an upgrade at least to Baldur's Gate 2 level graphics, but it's just not happening. Art takes time and money.

 

I prefer Avernum. But I can see how Avadon might appeal to some.

[Earth]

Avernum: Kill or get killed

 

Avadon: kill this and that and move on

[Randomizer]

Avernum: Kill or get killed

 

Avadon: kill this and get assigned to pest control

FYT

[Death Knight]

Avernums got a good area to explore, I just wish it wasn't so long and I could exp faster. I had 2 parties I made in the past 4 months. 1 was somewhat weak and got close to SLith King, the other beat the slith king and is lvl 26. The reason I stopped playing at that lvl is that I got bored of trash mobs and didn't have the patience to find enemies to slay that I COULD. That and the fact that when I could find enemies to fight, they would barely get me a 1/4 of a lvl before it was done. The only time you have guaranteed enemies to kill is a few places I would go around. Other than that, hopefully Avernum Crystal Souls will have more areas back to back with exp

[stranger]

I got bored of trash mobs and didn't have the patience to find enemies to slay that I COULD.

What?

when I could find enemies to fight, they would barely get me a 1/4 of a lvl before it was done.

What are you trying to say?

The only time you have guaranteed enemies to kill is a few places I would go around.

What are you even talking about?

[Death Knight]

What?

 

What are you trying to say?

 

What are you even talking about?

 

 

In Avadon, you can follow the main quest and most if not all the time, you will be able to defeat the enemies before you. In Avernum, all I do is since I can't find enemies to slay past lvl 10, is I go and exp farm for random encounters by the ogre cave near tower of magi. I eventually move from that to great cave, from there I do a few things. I don't usually do any REAL quests in great cave until lvl 17. The problem is that I will get into a dungeon and defeat most of the enemies only to be defeated by the last. Its not because I can't hit, its because they are way too out of my league. I usually get bored with it and pickup Avadon which I CAN play.

[Randomizer]

That's the difference between an open world and a linear one where there is only about 2 level difference in possible parties at any time.

 

In Avernum: Escape from the Pit you can skip ahead to the Great Cave by boat or land and dodging encounters that are too hard for you. Then there are collection and errand quests to do that give experience without combat to pick up a few easy levels.

 

Avadon after you get to Castle Vebeaux can be as hard as Avernum if you neglected too many side quests.

[Edgwyn]

To me, they are very different games. Avernum feels more like the classic games I grew up with (Wizardry, Ultima, Bard's Tale) whereas Avadon feels more modern. I enjoy both. In Avadon you have one player character and four non-player characters, but can only use two of them at a time. Their personalities are established. In Avernum, you have four player characters and their personalities do not matter.

Also, Avernum is morally simpler. You go out, kill a bunch of bad guys and eventually kill the evil emperor. In Avadon, there are multiple choices that force you to make decisions on the morality of the cause that you are serving, and then a different end game depending on what outcome you choose.

[Languorous_Maiar]

In Avadon, there are multiple choices that force you to make decisions on the morality of the cause that you are serving, and then a different end game depending on what outcome you choose.

 

The decisions, aren't really "decisions".

Look at it:

http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/18928-no-choices/#entry252663

[Edgwyn]

You are correct that they are not technically decisions since their affect on the outcome is nonexistent. However, I still found the moral issue stronger in Avadon in terms of staying loyal versus rebelling as opposed to Avernum 1 where an evil corrupt government threw you and a bunch of other innocent people in a hole and now you need to either escape or prevent it from happening to others in the future or kill off a Demon.

[stranger]

either escape or prevent it from happening to others in the future or kill off a Demon.

Why not all of the above?

 

But yes, belonging in a side seems to happen more in Geneforge and Avadon for the overall game rather than a smaller part like the Anama in Avernum 3.

[Languorous_Maiar]

However, I still found the moral issue stronger in Avadon in terms of staying loyal versus rebelling as opposed to Avernum 1 where an evil corrupt government threw you and a bunch of other innocent people in a hole and now you need to either escape or prevent it from happening to others in the future or kill off a Demon.

You know, you can always find exit and then report to Thantria, here you are, your empire run. ; )

But the entire point is that Avernum is never saying that you have choice, at the start of Avadon there are plenty dialogues about how you can prevent specific thread in the way YOU want. But you can't.

[Rockhound]

One major difference between the two, is that while combat in both is turned based... movement in Avadon is real time, while movement in Avernum is turn based. Avadon has a lot deeper character interaction. While you move through a linear plot: you can move through it in a non-linear way. Who you choose, and what you choose, will make things different.