"Normal" Plant and Animal Life

[Shogo]

Discussion of game mechanics? Not on my watch. For this thread I want to talk about the life that isn't a result of Shaper shenanigans.

 

We know that all Creations are created from SOMETHING. Indeterminate lizards for most of the fire creations. A lot of the battle creations apparently use humanoid stock but might also have been made by playing with apes, serviles, or even humans from a time before the Shapers said using Shaping on humans was bad. Clawbugs are just scorpions but bigger. Vlish . . . Maybe they started with a squid? No clue on the Glaahks. Or the Roamers to be honest. Atila from some sort of worm. Then the Wingbolt when they further modified the Artila and tossed in some bat features.

 

The point is . . . All Creations are ultimately just a "normal" plant or animal that the Shapers tweaked. As I said, this we already know. What I was curious about is just how much do we know about the life that was native to Terrestia before the Shapers came to power. I'd already assume they don't have, for example, horses. I don't believe they have dogs or cats either. (Wild or domesticated.) I mean, maybe they had something like them at some point but Creations drove them into extinction? Maybe the Shapers themselves did, because making a new form of loyal being was easier than domesticating pre-existing animals?

 

Anyways . . . Has it ever been hashed out what kind of non-Creation wildlife exists in Terrestia that we might be able to recognize? Has Jeff ever weighed in on this.

 

Really, the main reason I'm asking is I actually want to do a little bit of writing. Specifically, something involving a Shaper visiting another land. So I'm trying to figure out what kind of things would make a Shaper ask "What the [censored] is that?" as well as what kind of things would make a Shaper ask "You have these too?"

 

Maybe see some horses and think "Why didn't we think of that?"

[Goldengirl]

Discussion of game mechanics? Not on my watch. For this thread I want to talk about the life that isn't a result of Shaper shenanigans.

 

We know that all Creations are created from SOMETHING. Indeterminate lizards for most of the fire creations. A lot of the battle creations apparently use humanoid stock but might also have been made by playing with apes, serviles, or even humans from a time before the Shapers said using Shaping on humans was bad. Clawbugs are just scorpions but bigger. Vlish . . . Maybe they started with a squid? No clue on the Glaahks. Or the Roamers to be honest. Atila from some sort of worm. Then the Wingbolt when they further modified the Artila and tossed in some bat features.

 

This isn't actually as clear as you make it out to be. There's relatively little in game information about the mechanics of Shaping; this isn't necessarily surprising, as if I were Jeff, i wouldn't want to get into such a mess either. There's some information about "stock" from the loading screens, some details about roamers being modified dogs (there's an answer to that, by the way) and some information about lifecrafters holding essence in their body and Shaping it. Personally, my theory about how Shaping works varies quite a bit from yours; I suspect that the Shapers use essence that they hold in their body and transform it through magical bombardment into a living form, rather than altering a previously existing animal or plant. The problem of what "stock" means exactly in the context of the game can be resolved by saying that the animals mentioned served as inspiration, not a base material.

 

I find this to be the only way to resolve the "Every Shaper is an army" mentality that allows infiltrators to be so devastating. If lifecrafters had to catch animals before they could Shape, or else carry a small zoo with them to do their magic at a moment's notice, then they wouldn't be nearly as effective. Moreover, some of the elements of the story would completely fall apart, such as the Barrier Zone in G4 where immobile Shapers produced a huge army. Shaping in battle is the most clear testimonial, though; General Alwan wouldn't be scavenging around to find a lizard so he could make a kyshakk to attack you in the middle of a fight, he's too busy with his sword.

 

By the way, glaahks seem to be a modified form of clawbugs. That's my intuition, at least, based on their similar tails.

 

The point is . . . All Creations are ultimately just a "normal" plant or animal that the Shapers tweaked. As I said, this we already know. What I was curious about is just how much do we know about the life that was native to Terrestia before the Shapers came to power. I'd already assume they don't have, for example, horses. I don't believe they have dogs or cats either. (Wild or domesticated.) I mean, maybe they had something like them at some point but Creations drove them into extinction? Maybe the Shapers themselves did, because making a new form of loyal being was easier than domesticating pre-existing animals?

 

Anyways . . . Has it ever been hashed out what kind of non-Creation wildlife exists in Terrestia that we might be able to recognize? Has Jeff ever weighed in on this.

 

Really, the main reason I'm asking is I actually want to do a little bit of writing. Specifically, something involving a Shaper visiting another land. So I'm trying to figure out what kind of things would make a Shaper ask "What the [censored] is that?" as well as what kind of things would make a Shaper ask "You have these too?"

 

I suspect that there are still natural plants and animals, coexisting with the Shaper fauna and flora. There has been some ingame evidence of this, mentions of native flora and fauna. I suspect the reason we don't see this (perhaps the unexplained flora - are those the Shaper made trees or natural ones? and what about the grass?) is because it isn't relevant to the game at all. The game sometimes mentions birdsong, and we have no reason to suspect the Shapers made birds. Surely there are insects and such in the swamps of the Mera Tev, but for some reason Jeff chose to focus on the presence of the Unbound.

 

The fact that there's a mention in Geneforge 4 at the Illya Safehouse of roamers being modified dogs indicates that dogs at least did exist. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if many native animals have been driven to extinction by Shaper creations. Battle creations aside, the Shapers seem to focus most of their work on improving local ecosystems to be more productive for humanity (and Serviles) by creating better crops and such. They're engineered to be better fitted into their niche than natural organisms. Unfortunately, Jeff hasn't weighted in on this, so we are left to conjecture based on inferences and text from the game.

 

Maybe see some horses and think "Why didn't we think of that?"

 

There's no reason to believe that Terrestia has or had horses, if only because no one uses them or their creation version. In the midst of a massive rebellion, and in a society that is centered around using animals to do work, it seems like a pretty glaring oversight if they existed and weren't used. Therefore, it's a safe assumption to say that they aren't present in the greater world of Terrestia, beyond what the games directly show. They may, however, be in the lands of the Sholai. Considering how hard it is to transport horses oversea, they would have had no reason to do so, so that option remains open. Obviously, they could be in one of the other parts of the world, as well.

[Shogo]

I should have been more clear.

 

I wasn't saying that every single Creation you encounter in the games was made from modifying some pre-existing animal. Just that the origin of the Creation itself can be traced back to some form of native wildlife.

 

The first Fyoras came about from the manipulation of some kind of lizard, but once they were made they don't have to modify lizards anymore to get Fyoras. They just make new Fyoras from scratch.

 

I'm sorry if I was too vague or confusing about that.

 

---------------------

 

As for horses . . . I meant the idea of a riding animal. I don't think the Shapers have anything they can use to ride or as some form of cavalry. As far as I can tell, all travel is by foot or by boat.

 

As a quick aside . . . Ornks are supposed to be some kind of Pig-Cow Hybrid, right? That's how I've always thought of them but i just wanted to confirm if others saw them that way too.

[Sudanna]

Yeah, 'stock' might refer to using the genetic material of an animal as a starting point, and modifying it to get the things you want.

[Alorael at Large]

There are two processes: design and creation. It's not entirely clear how design works, and the PCs never do any of that, but shapers come up with new creations somehow. The implication is that they start from the DNA of an existing creature, the "stock," and then tweak it iteratively until they get the creation they want. Creation is just a matter of whipping essence into that predetermined form. I also like to think there's a difference between personal essence and essence from a vat (the latter makes creations that can't really go rogue and can trivially be reabsorbed but that also require constant essence investment by the shaper and can't be made in endless numbers and sent out to wreak havoc).

 

I think the absence of normal creatures is mostly a budget and attention constraint. Jeff didn't bother with the sprites for cats and dogs so there aren't any. He didn't want you to ride horses so there aren't any. Other wildlife is less interesting (and probably scarce in the warzones you traverse) so you don't see them. They should be there, though: the Shapers haven't waged any obvious war of genocide against non-shaped creature and rogue creations aren't allowed to run rampant so they shouldn't be wrecking the ecology.

 

—Alorael, who does think there's probably a distinct lack of domesticated wildlife. Shapers keep shaped livestock: ornks, not cows or pigs. And roamers, not sheepdogs. They've probably even made optimally fluffy, cuddly cats.

[Trenton.]

They should be there, though: the Shapers haven't waged any obvious war of genocide against non-shaped creature and rogue creations aren't allowed to run rampant so they shouldn't be wrecking the ecology.

 

But mistakes are made. Surely there will be quite a few rogues hiding out. If you've been in woods, jungles, or swamps in real life, you'll see that places to hide are EVERYWHERE. Perhaps there are enough hiding in dens, adapted to wild life, to cause mass endangerment to wild natural animals.

 

If wild Rogues kill off anything for food, then natural fauna species can die out before Shaper intervention. Who's to say that Roamers didn't simply kill off their ancestor dogs?

 

—Alorael, who does think there's probably a distinct lack of domesticated wildlife...They've probably even made optimally fluffy, cuddly cats.

Rotghroths.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

Anyways . . . Has it ever been hashed out what kind of non-Creation wildlife exists in Terrestia that we might be able to recognize? Has Jeff ever weighed in on this.

There are Rats for sure.

also..

 

there are refrences in GI to real world animals: save for humans, sheep in the greater Temple, dogs in spiral borrows and "natural forms" such as birds in Ellrah´s keep are examples of real life animals in the Geneforge universe.

[Alorael at Large]

But mistakes are made. Surely there will be quite a few rogues hiding out. If you've been in woods, jungles, or swamps in real life, you'll see that places to hide are EVERYWHERE. Perhaps there are enough hiding in dens, adapted to wild life, to cause mass endangerment to wild natural animals.

Mistakes are made, but single creations let lose aren't going to be able to overpopulate and annihilate the wildlife, and I get the sense that the Shapers were good at taking out rogues quickly and efficiently before the war and internecine struggles made a mess of their control of everything. Yes, they had regular lab disasters, but they tended to seal the labs quickly and not let much out.

 

—Alorael, who can even imagine that the Shapers might largely make their dangerous creations infertile, so that each one must be individually created. It's a way to both limit catastrophe and keep them from falling into the hands of those who could slowly breed an opposing army. He's not sure if there's any game text on that one way or the other; he's pretty sure that at least some creations are bred rather than shaped most of the time.

[Sudanna]

A lot of dangerous species are specifically made infertile. Creatures like ornks and Serviles are usually not. And rogues made by the Rebels are usually capable of reproducing.

[Shogo]

Every now and then there will be a mention of the Shapers making many of their Creations sterile. Really, the only reason you have swarms of Rogues to fight is because every game has at least one group that's deliberately filling areas with them. (If not breeding capable Creations than at the very least a Spawner or two.)

 

As for an enemy breeding capturing a couple of fertile, combat Creation and using them to breed an army . . . That might be tricky. While there really isn't anything that says this couldn't have changed between G1 and G5, and this really only covers the known Creations as of G1 . . . It seems to be extraordinarily difficult to do what you suggested. If you don't remember, the Obeyers in Pentil are explicitly trying to capture Rogues and make them tame. The person in charge of this says that the only Creation that they have ever been able to make tame again is the Fyora.

 

Again, it's not necessarily concrete or anything, but that has lead me to believe that Fyoras are usually pretty damn stable. This doesn't surprise me though. Especially in light of the intro and outro scenes for G2, with that tiny little Fyora. While dogs apparently exist, and Outsiders might keep dogs around as pets . . . I've tended to think the Shapers use Fyoras as their equivalent to pet dogs.

[Learned Noremac]

Geneforge 1 Spoilers ahoy:

 

G1 has answers to most of this, I think. It mentions that making a new type of creation essentially involves taking an existing creation or animal and bombarding it with different types of shaping magic, to see what it does--even the ancestors of the Shapers used it offensively, to shape their enemies. The big breakthrough is that being able to see and eventually understand the DNA "scrolls" means the process won't be random. I seem to recall that the Geneforge is said to contain the genetic recipe for the "perfect being".

 

Presumably this is based on humanity, but it's at least concievable here that the design for this superman could have been "from scratch". At the very least, it doesn't seem that Shapers could simply design their own creations from the ground up WITHOUT the Sucia Island knowledge. So some rebel creations might be entirely "new" in this sense; maybe not the conventional creations, but the alluded to viruses and diseases and so forth could be.

[Questionably Legal]

Geneforge 1 Spoilers ahoy:

 

G1 has answers to most of this, I think. It mentions that making a new type of creation essentially involves taking an existing creation or animal and bombarding it with different types of shaping magic, to see what it does--even the ancestors of the Shapers used it offensively, to shape their enemies. The big breakthrough is that being able to see and eventually understand the DNA "scrolls" means the process won't be random. I seem to recall that the Geneforge is said to contain the genetic recipe for the "perfect being".

 

Presumably this is based on humanity, but it's at least concievable here that the design for this superman could have been "from scratch". At the very least, it doesn't seem that Shapers could simply design their own creations from the ground up WITHOUT the Sucia Island knowledge. So some rebel creations might be entirely "new" in this sense; maybe not the conventional creations, but the alluded to viruses and diseases and so forth could be.

 

I don't think any of the creations introduced in later games are "from scratch". In G3 rotgroths are called a kind of modified battle alpha, someone (I forget who) says they think gazers are some type of super-vlish, and drakons are obviously evolved drayks. In G4, war tralls look suspiciously like yet another variation on your basic Gorilla-Thing That Puches Stuff^TM , wingbolts are flying glaaks, and kyshakks. . . um. . . vaguely resemble roamers.

 

Also the "Shaping your enemies in battle" thing seems sort of inefficient compared to simply blasting them with fire.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

Wingbolts are actually flying snakes(or Artilas), they have little in common with Glaahks apart from the fact that both are magic creations, Kyshaaks are based I believe on Fyoras (Lizards basically), not on Roamers.

[Goldengirl]

The original creations, as they're in the research process, may have been made from stock creations like that, but once that process is done it is assured that the Shaping occurs from scratch.

[Hyena of Ice]

I think the absence of normal creatures is mostly a budget and attention constraint.

I'm entirely certain of this. And it would be a nightmare for programmer and player alike if those animals are characters with a combat turn and everything.

 

the Shapers haven't waged any obvious war of genocide against non-shaped creature and rogue creations aren't allowed to run rampant so they shouldn't be wrecking the ecology.

Unfortunately, that's not the reality in the Geneforge series. Irresponsible (and sometimes rogue) shapers are to blame for giant rats and that fungal disease that Kentian dude had in G3 are all prime examples. And, maybe I'm wrong, but it kinda sounds like the giant rats are difficult if not impossible to eradicate, and thus would be present even when the rebels aren't creating rogues. Considering how good and diverse the human immune system is, and how most pathogens IRL are rather species-specific, one can only imagine what other horrors the shapers have released that only affect certain animals or plants. In addition, their experiments with agriculture resulted in super-fast growing and spreading crops that eventually devastate soil quality (which by the sound of it were eradicated), and those gnarled, useless trees in the southern part of the continent in G2 that IIRC are difficult to cut with an axe and tend to densely overgrow pathways and the like quickly.

[Jerakeen]

Welcome to the boards, Hyena!

 

Yes this is your second post, but I see that nobody welcomed you after your first. Bad Spiderwebbers! No biscuit!

[Hyena of Ice]

That's okay I forgot to add, regarding horses--

We see wagons all over the place in GF2 and 3 (or is it just 3?), so there has to be SOME sort of riding beast to pull them (note I have yet to play GF 4 or 5, so I don't know if it's shown in those) Though I'm guessing they probably have something with more horsepower than well- a horse. Maybe an ass or horse sized-variety of roamer? I mean, they're designed like the carts we see IRL, so I doubt they just have a couple servilles on either handle pulling the thing...

[Jerakeen]

I always thought it was a rip-off that I couldn't shape a pack animal to tote some of my stuff.

 

In answer to your question, probably ornks?

[Goldengirl]

Serviles, ornks, or roamers would be my guess. Battle alphas or thahds if they're feeling particularly fancy or have a large load.

 

Fortunately, the development of the junk bag in G5 and the new weight system in G4 really make the need for a pack animal vanish entirely.

[Upon Mars.]

Discussion of game mechanics? Not on my watch. For this thread I want to talk about the life that isn't a result of Shaper shenanigans.

 

We know that all Creations are created from SOMETHING. Indeterminate lizards for most of the fire creations. A lot of the battle creations apparently use humanoid stock but might also have been made by playing with apes, serviles, or even humans from a time before the Shapers said using Shaping on humans was bad. Clawbugs are just scorpions but bigger. Vlish . . . Maybe they started with a squid? No clue on the Glaahks. Or the Roamers to be honest. Atila from some sort of worm. Then the Wingbolt when they further modified the Artila and tossed in some bat features.

 

Spoilers:

In G1 it is simply explained that the shapers learned to modify living organisms, by more or less modifying key gene sections. Then by some miracle they invented essence and learned to shape it into living things.

 

I find no objection to the idea that proto-Shapers were so advanced that they were capable of memorizing how to replicate the effects of shaping already living materials onto essence, herby creating creations without the need of an already existing creature, as they did in the past on Sucia isle at some point.

 

Since thahds, battle alphas and servile can talk, my guess is that they were human at one point. It's also possible that servant minds are from human stock, though it's not an affirmation. In my fan fiction I have Glaahks related to grasshoppers because they seem to have similar legs and functional feet, which do not look like a scorpion's or a clawbug. Vlish are discribed in G1 by Sholai soldiers as "worms" and not squid, which is interesting. As for the rest...

[Hyena of Ice]

^^Maybe they're related to crickets (which are closely related to cockroaches). It would give them more resilience, and allow the shapers to feed them with trash (IIRC some species of crickets are scavengers)

[Hyena of Ice]

There are definitely bats in the Geneforge world as well, as you can hear what is clearly supposed to be bat sounds in one of the BG tracks (in G2 I think the crystal cavern uses this, and in G3 the kentia mines do) Not to be confused with the similar one that is mostly just water drops.

[Waterboy_Matt]

This topic is relevant to me. I've been doing some homebrew D&D (3.5 SRD, because free) based on Geneforge with my friends in real life. Though I've encouraged them to play the games, they haven't yet, and have gotten in the habit of calling our game "the Petri dish world." In my game, yes, there are unshaped animals and plants, but they're not common in any areas that have any connections to Shapers because the Shaped-things are so much more efficient at what they do. Where there are chickens roaming a non-Shaper community, there are probably chicken-like things that produce a dozen eggs a day and aren't as territorial or hierarchical. Or perhaps more territorial, if there's danger of wild animals trying to eat them. (I've owned chickens, and have seen just how vicious they can be with a snake.) But in communities far from Shaper influence, or in wilderness areas Shapers haven't decided to mess with yet, more natural creatures and plants will be present.

 

Shapers aren't stupid; they know that over the course of a few million years, most things evolved quite well to fill specific niches on their own, and they wouldn't be interested in doing much more than tweaking stuff that already worked. It's the specialty stuff that a Shaper wants to design, stuff that only matters to humans and human society, like livestock and warfare. But if they want to make a desert a forest, or a siege weapon that can move around on its own and follow orders, they don't want to wait around a few eons for evolution to make that happen on its own.

 

In making my D&D game, I know they're lizards, but fyoras seem most balanced when I've used the stats for various kinds of cats (ranging from housecat to dire tiger, depending on the party level), and just tack on a spit attack of varying intensity. (I nearly wiped a level 1 party with just the housecat variety, because I gave them a 1d4 spit they could use every turn. I've since learned to scale it.) Cats seemed like a good template because the fyoras seem to hunt and think like cats when rogue. Also, cats have a good Dexterity, so they are fairly accurate with the spit.

 

In making stats for the shaped things, I've found it easiest to start with how the creation thinks, and then add or take away things from other animals based on that. Which I figure is similar to how Shapers design a new creation: look at normal animals and plants, and add things you want from other life until you've got a mix that makes you happy and doesn't immediately die. Most creation's special abilities can be borrowed from elsewhere in nature, many with only minor tweaks: bombardier beetles with their explosive spray, archer fish spitting water at bugs, porcupine quills, etc. Put a bombardier beetle's explosive glands behind a llama's spitting muscles, and slap that overpowered mouth arsenal on a lizard or a wolf, and bam, fyoras and roamers. Which would also be how you get things like unstable roamers, since I wouldn't be surprised if that whole bombardier beetle thing was tricky to get right. And once you got one design stable, there's no reason not to build on it, like the glow-in-the-dark roamer in G5. As far as magic creations go, it would just be a matter of adding in whatever gland or brain chemical or whatever makes magic happen.

 

And given the arrogance of Shapers, I have no doubt that if a Shaper ever discovered dinosaur fossils, their first thought would be "I bet I could do that" and not "I should painstakingly study this to find out what life was like several million years ago."