The AP Change in G4/G5 sucks

[Death Knight]

Ive gone through it numerous times and Ive reached a conclusion that Geneforge 4 and 5 are the hardest games in the geneforge series due to the ap change of 5 ap to 1 ap per action.

 

Now that I think of it, the Geneforge 1 and 2 and even 3 ap system is STILL much much better than the newer ones.

 

Here's a few reasons why-

 

-In the earlier games, you can go near an enemy and lure them away so you can take them out with melee. In later games you cannot do this and if you can they can all attack you at once.

 

-It made shapers/mages/ranged creatures much more strategic to fight

 

-Most boss battles are gigantic slugfests as there are no real tactics to go through

 

-Made ranged builds actually deadly as you can get off 1 or 2 or even 3 shots off (much like Avadon)

 

I really hope jeff doesnt keep this system in place for future Geneforge remakes. The newer system just flat out sucks and while it does have a few good things, it mostly is weak compared to former.

[Cmiller]

The new AP system is of great benefit to melee based characters, such as the servile or warrior.

 

 

-In the earlier games, you can go near an enemy and lure them away so you can take them out with melee. In later games you cannot do this and if you can they can all attack you at once.

 

-It made shapers/mages/ranged creatures much more strategic to fight

 

-Most boss battles are gigantic slugfests as there are no real tactics to go through

 

-Made ranged builds actually deadly as you can get off 1 or 2 or even 3 shots off (much like Avadon)

 

- One way to prevent monsters from monsters attacking you all at once is to utilize your mental magic spells. The good thing with later Geneforge games is that there are almost always items that will increase your skills regardless of what character you chose. And mental magic skills i believe was a good substitute to prevent monsters from getting you all at once. Also if your a lifecrafer/shaper they will usually attack the last creature that strikes. (of course its not good if it dies ).

 

- What's wrong with making shapers and mages characters more strategic? I love using strategy .

 

-not sure what you mean about boss fights. Must not reading right lol.

 

- Yeah ranged builds can be overpowered in the game. Especially when you can get over 200 damage with a baton. But that, i believe, the case with every geneforge game. There is always an overpowered skill/tactic that can be utilized in his games.

 

All in all, everyone Geneforge game will have its disadvantages and advantages. Sadly, sometimes they are not well balanced

 

Cmiller

[Triumph]

From what I've read on here, I think the popular consensus is that the AP change (attacking needing only 1 AP and no longer 5) was a big improvement of the later games.

 

Like Cmiller said, the thing to keep in mind is all the benefits that accrue to enemies ALSO accrue to you (in terms of enhanced mobility). The games aren't less "strategic" in the slightest. It just means one must adjust one's tactics a little to cope with the different system.

[Alorael at Large]

The change makes melee viable instead of distinctly second-class. You don't have to eat as much damage while closing. Boss battles have always been slugfests by default, but later Geneforges still have the same gimmicks and script trickery to make you think as well as pummel.

 

—Alorael, who is sorry you don't like the change. It will stick around. Jeff almost never retracts and this one has been popular enough that it's one of the very few things he hasn't gotten massive fan backlash for.

[Lilith]

Like Cmiller said, the thing to keep in mind is all the benefits that accrue to enemies ALSO accrue to you (in terms of enhanced mobility). The games aren't less "strategic" in the slightest. It just means one must adjust one's tactics a little to cope with the different system.

 

Also, let's be fair, "haste yourself, attack from extreme range, run around a corner and end combat mode" was never really that strategic in the first place.

[Cmiller]

Also, let's be fair, "haste yourself, attack from extreme range, run around a corner and end combat mode" was never really that strategic in the first place.

 

You said it, man. I can't agree more.

[Death Knight]

Also, let's be fair, "haste yourself, attack from extreme range, run around a corner and end combat mode" was never really that strategic in the first place.

 

Thats a cool tactic. My favorite tactic in Geneforge 2 is to creep up to a turret or or pylon that is normally hard to take down. From there I let a creation (in this case a roamer) and attack it from afar drawing its attention while it attacks the creation. Meanwhile my guardian comes over from the opposite side of the wall and takes down the turret with a strike from his sword. Usually if its not dead at that point, it will be soon in the next round.

[Dikiyoba]

Thats a cool tactic.

The first couple times you do it, maybe. But when it's the easiest way to attack just about everything, it quickly becomes boring and unbalanced.

 

My favorite tactic in Geneforge 2 is to creep up to a turret or or pylon that is normally hard to take down. From there I let a creation (in this case a roamer) and attack it from afar drawing its attention while it attacks the creation. Meanwhile my guardian comes over from the opposite side of the wall and takes down the turret with a strike from his sword. Usually if its not dead at that point, it will be soon in the next round.

How is that tactic in any way ruined by the AP change? If anything, it should be more effective because you can utilize cover a greater distance away and so be able to sneak up on turrets and suchlike in a more open area.

 

Dikiyoba thinks the only ones with room to complain about the AP change are the glaahks, because now their stunning ability kind of sucks.

[Triumph]

Dikiyoba thinks the only ones with room to complain about the AP change are the glaahks

 

*envisions crowd of haggard, disgruntled glaahks with "Occupy Action Points" signs marching through the streets of Dillame*

 

Because 1% of creations shouldn't have to bear 99% of the negative consequences of an engine change.

[Hawat]

This is interesting. G5 is the only game in the series I have played, and I wondered why Glaahks were so underwhelming. If attacks used to require 5 AP, they would have been much stronger. Jeff really should have either lowered their essence cost or given them better resistances to compensate, as the stun just doesn't do much.

[Death Knight]

Glaahks werent that hard in G3 and G4, at least not much as I remember the first 2 games were. The first game when I first fought that thing with my agent, I thought the game was over. Usually I can get to Fens of Aziraph in G4 but once that happens, it just gets impossible and the game ends. I played that part over 4 times and the Monarch still gets me each time.

[Cmiller]

Really well with an infiltrater just buy more points in mental magic. Cast daze and hit and run if or starts to get ugly. Simple enough, eh? :-)

[BMA]

......the ap change of 5 ap to 1 ap per action.

 

Now I did kind of vaguely realize that there was something about the later Geneforges that made attacking things a lot easier.

[Student of Trinity]

It's not exactly 1 AP per action. It's that you're allowed to go below 0 AP with your last action in the round.

 

Even without really flagrant engine abuse, some of the old tactics were a bit too good. In any zone with a lot of corners, with a bit of extra AP you could shoot, then run back around a corner, and by the time your enemy got line of sight on you, it had too few AP to attack. You could repeat this round after round, and take down unlimited numbers of dangerous ranged enemies. As Dikiyoba says, it was fun the first time, but after that, it just made the game seem silly.

 

The big thing was just stopping you from moving after attacking. The other things were mainly to compensate you for that, or so I figured. That's why I think that the change may well have been aimed at nerfing that particular trick. But I think that Jeff found he also liked the change in general. It helped to make melee a lot less stupid.

 

I like to think that I was at least the straw that broke the camel's back, by explaining that corner trick to Jeff while beta-testing G4. It was just after that that he made the big change. But probably a lot of other people had been pointing out the abuses for quite some time.

[Randomizer]

Then players found that you could click on objects after your first attack to move. This let you get to another position.

[Student of Trinity]

Right. That saved my G4 singleton servile once against the Titan. He had finally slain the beast, but he had only a sliver of health left, and he was still facing a couple of fully healthy rotdhizons or something, with only a couple of nearly-dead charmed kyshakks on his side. They would kill him just by exploding. With just a few AP left, too hopped up on combat adrenaline to move from the spot, he suddenly notices a really cool pillar machine thing half across the big room. Before he knows it, he has raced half way over there to give it a look. Serviles are total geeks that way, I guess. So the rots eat the kyshakks, nothing else attacks my isolated servile, and he boots it all the way to the zone edge with his next 18 AP.