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No choices


Languorous_Maiar
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So I'm in the middle of Avadon and it's not what I expected.

 

Let's start from Avernum (2012 remake), which was great journey, where everything was focused on fighting and exploration of the world. There weren't any choices, every quest (with a few exceptions) was feasible only in one way, but that how it should work. Developers focused on other things, which are therefore really at a high level, well refined. I not even felt that something was missing. And remember, it's from 1995 and for me its pretty "completed" game, ofc. with some speech ability etc. everything would be gorgeous, but it isn't that type of game.

 

On other hand, we got Avadon. Linear, where everything is much more limited, with average companions (when comparing to other games) and repeated places. Instead we should get... better story with ability to solve quests on several ways. Unfortunately, it isn't truth. Seems like story is pretty classic in this genre and the setting also don't stands out. So we reach the biggest disappointment - choices, or rather lack of them.

 

SPOILER

 

After most of interesting dialogues I pretty often load the game, and taken other options and... nothing happens!

 

-In first mission we can't get Ogre-leader as prisoner.

-In second we can't do the same wih beast, and when that mage start attacking, we can't stop him! So we are hands, who can do anything they want or no? We should get option to stop him, even if it will mean that we will horribly die or will screw next big quest.

-In same mission we can't even get into castle.. hey, we are hands. There should be option to go to Redbeard and complain to him about it during the mission. If he would burn all village after some hand's deaths I see no point in such limitation. (even some Eye after mission is very surprised about this, duh.)

-There is no option to avoid sayin to second dragon about our objective, even if we after conversation, would learn that without help of the dragon can't go further. Everything will ended same way, but would be at same time more logic.

-We can't let go Merula, because she must fight to death.... uhh... without even mentioning the possibility of joining to enemy forces, it will be too much for devs.

-The most annoying, we can't even kill Vid at first meeting, who cares we will lost one quest.

 

Just few examples, I'm not saying it's bad game. Pretty average but I excepted a lot more, for a such price. (linear and without freedom of action)

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I think the thing that bothers people who have this complaint about Avadon is that it feels as though you ought to have choices with consequences, but you don't. I think part of this is that some very obvious moves (go back to Redbeard and complain about not getting into the castle) are explicitly mentioned by characters but cannot be done, and sometimes you do have seemingly important choices that end up having no consequences.

 

It's interesting that Jeff decided to do this. It didn't bother me, but it bothered a fair number of people.

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On other hand, we got Avadon. Linear, where everything is much more limited, with average companions (when comparing to other games) and repeated places. Instead we should get... better story with ability to solve quests on several ways. Unfortunately, it isn't truth. Seems like story is pretty classic in this genre and the setting also don't stands out. So we reach the biggest disappointment - choices, or rather lack of them.

 

First of all, I agree precisely with what Kel said. That said, there were a few things you mentioned about Avadon in your critique that are worth defending. Specifically, you attack the repeated places, which I think are one of the biggest innovations that the game presents. In just about every Spiderweb game (haven't played them all all the way through, hence the qualifier) once you finish something in a region it's done and stays static. You get all your quests from the Bob, and then everything is happily ever after. Sure, in X3 there was some transformation as the plagues took their toll, but once you solved that province's plague then that region stayed unaffected. Avadon gets closer to a sense of realism as the areas are revisited and change occurs between missions. The problem, of course, doesn't go away, but it's a huge step towards increasing realism.

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It's just an illusion of realism. Places stay static, after you once explored them.

 

So in my second visit in Goldcrag nothing has changed. Even all NPC dialogues were the same, and only quest givers had 1 more explication, but only focusing on their new quests.

Beetwen revisits something should happens and during meeting again with specific character, you should have option to learn more, not just get one quest more. For example, better familiarize with locals, some new small scenes or even meeting with new npc in old locations, that would get me more into atmosphere of the game. At second visit, there was only ONE new description of the town after the attack of the ogres, even if in fact, nothing changes, and I didn't saw smaller numbers of guards (what was written in text) etc. and that would be great not to only give us 1 little description, but real changes in town like replacing some houses as destroyed etc. I tried to learn something new from Eye Tamaria, but no, all olds options. If you would do something on first visit, then on second you should see consequences of your actions, and it would be realism. And that would be great.

 

I think part of this is that some very obvious moves (...) are explicitly mentioned by characters but cannot be done

Agree. It's all about narration.

In Avernum you always have to do specific things for specific reward, thats all, very clear.

In Avadon, on the beginning of the game, Miranda says to you, that you have to deal with specific problems, in the way you want, without any restrictions, because you're hand, who can abuse power to keep the peace. And then propably many players like I was, became fascinated and very glad about mechanics of this game. Then of course, in cruel way, you going to learn that both things are false. (both - you cant decide about outcome and progress of the mission).

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I think the thing that bothers people who have this complaint about Avadon is that it feels as though you ought to have choices with consequences, but you don't. I think part of this is that some very obvious moves (go back to Redbeard and complain about not getting into the castle) are explicitly mentioned by characters but cannot be done, and sometimes you do have seemingly important choices that end up having no consequences.

 

It's interesting that Jeff decided to do this. It didn't bother me, but it bothered a fair number of people.

I saw somewhere that Jeff said he had been thinking about the fact that people in real life do things and often don't have to face the consequences of their actions. It would seem he brought that reality to Avadon...

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Then of course, in cruel way, you going to learn that both things are false. (both - you cant decide about outcome and progress of the mission).

Well, you do get to choose to spare or kill certain people, just not as many people as you might think. Maybe that's the idea: Hands ostensibly have huge amounts of freedom, but in actual fact, they only get to make a few (admittedly life or death) decisions here and there. I mean, the entire point the Wayfarer tries to make is that Avadon has discretion but no real choice. Once Hands go to an area, the final result for that area is pretty clear, no matter what the exact path is.

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