Rotghroth Rhapsody The Reverend Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I've been (slowly) working on calculating the value of each point of cave lore. The purpose is to determine if buying points in it for 900 coins in Formello is worthwhile. The min-maxing analysis argued that the items you get from cave lore would generally not be worth the cost (and that the small bonus to poison/acid resistance was not worthwhile either), but I thought that it might be undervaluing wisdom crystals and mandrake, and also not taking into account the renewable herb patches (3 of which require cave lore). Excess herbs that you don't use to create wisdom crystals can be sold. I explained wisdom crystal and mandrake valuations in the following thread from last month: Wisdom Crystal and Mandrake Valuation To compile this list, I looked at the list of caches, and the other cave-lore specific things in the item list (mostly herb patches, some renewable and some not). I ignored the rubies in the giant quarry, because you can get them without cave lore if you are willing to fight. For most items I then looked at the price you could get from selling it with 4 characters with Negotiator. For wisdom crystals and mandrake, I instead used the valuation described in the above link. I did not attempt to place any value on the poison/acid resistance - my idea was that if you can break even monetarily, then the poison/acid resistance is a nice free bonus. Here are the values I came up with - note the "sweet spots" at 5 and 10: Cave Lore 1 Cost: 0 (Free point from doing herb quest in Mertis) Value: 0 Cave Lore 2 Cost: 0 (Free point from pool in giant lands) Value: 44 Cave Lore 3 Cost: 900 Value: 450 + 33 per collection of healing herbs from the non-gremlin Eastern Gallery patch Total cost to get here (sum of all previous points' costs): 900 Total value of getting here (sum of all previous points values): 494 + 33 per healing herb collection Cave Lore 4 Cost: 900 Value: 835 Total cost to get here (sum of all previous points' costs): 1800 Total value of getting here (sum of all previous points values): 1329 + 33 per healing herb collection Cave Lore 5 Cost: 900 Value: 1404 + 44 per collection of energetic herbs from energetic renewable patch Total cost to get here: 2700 Total value of getting here: 2733 + 33 per healing collection + 44 per energetic collection Cave Lore 6 Cost: 900 Value: 690 Total cost to get here: 3600 Total value of getting here: 3423 + 33 per healing collection + 44 per energetic collection Cave Lore 7 Cost: 900 Value: 387 Total cost to get here: 4500 Total value of getting here: 3810 + 33 per healing collection + 44 per energetic collection Cave Lore 8 Cost: 900 Value: 1340 Total cost to get here: 5400 Total value of getting here: 5150 + 33 per healing collection + 44 per energetic collection Cave Lore 9 Cost: 900 Value: 646 Total cost to get here: 6300 Total value of getting here: 5796 + 33 per healing collection + 44 per energetic collection Cave Lore 10 Cost: 900 Value: 295 per mandrake collection Total cost to get here: 7200 Total value of getting here: 5796 + 295 per mandrake collection + 33 per healing collection + 44 per energetic collection So it is clearly worthwhile to get to 5 cave lore (2 free and 3 bought). You'll make back all of your money even if you don't do any herb collection trips, and so it is essentially a free bonus to poison and acid resistance. And if you like to collect herbs, you can make a profit pretty easily. I would also argue that it is worthwhile to get cave lore up to 10 (2 free and 8 bought). You only need to collect mandrake from the renewable patch 5 times to break even (and you'll be visiting the nearby Freehold quite often for training in the mid to late game - I just take a quick jaunt over to the mandrake patch every time I'm there to see if it has regenerated). Cave lore 10 is the highest you can get to from just free points and training. However, if you are willing to invest 1 skill point, you can get to cave lore 11. That allows you to get the First Expedition Ring which gives you an additional one point bonus. That in turn lets you get the CL12 cache containing the putrified gauntlets. If you then sell the ring and gauntlets, you can make 2100 coins. I'd argue that that is a good investment of a skill point, because 2100 is enough to train an additional point in any another skill, and still have some extra money left over. So, to be complete: Cave Lore 11 Cost: 1 skill point Value: 2100 (use the First Expedition Ring bonus to get the Putrified Gauntlets, and then sell both) Total cost to get here: 7200 + 1 skill point Total value of getting here: 7896 + 295 per mandrake collection + 33 per healing collection + 44 per energetic collection EarthPhantomTS, nikki. and BloomingLilac 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan RaustBlackDragon Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Nice work man! Yeah, Cave lore was OBSCENELY valuable in my non-minmaxed party, the claims that you were better off ignoring it just felt frankly absurd, the potion supplies were that useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Triumph Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Cool! Nice work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Earth Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 this is for singleton since with party it gets spreaded between chars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody The Reverend Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 this is for singleton since with party it gets spreaded between chars. No, this analysis assumes a 4-character party. With a singleton you can only get to 4 cave lore with free points and points purchased for 900 in Formello (since each character can only purchase 2). To get up to 10 without spending skill points you need a 4-character party. The only reason I advocate spending a skill point to get up to 11 is because you can get to 10 and still break even monetarily (with just a few trips to the mandrake patch), and then spending the 1 skill point to get to 11 generates enough additional gold (2100) to buy training in almost any skill you desire and still have money left over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Jerakeen Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 (edited) No, a singleton would only be able to buy two points from a trainer. Nicely done, Reverend! Edited November 9, 2012 by Jerakeen Sniped by the OP! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Triumph Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 This thread has been linked in Strategy Central for future reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila EarthPhantomTS Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) Sorry to bump this, but I have a question: is the 300 coins from the Burning Fungi on that Dark Lake island counted in this analysis? Cause I'm pretty sure the game makes a Cave Lore check for that (it specifically says so, and you can miss getting the money if you kill them too early; I don't know what skill level is required though). In any event, very nice. I was always kinda "pro-Cave Lore" from the start simply because I don't like feeling like I'm missing treasure. Good to see I, at least arguably, made the right call. Edited November 16, 2018 by EarthPhantomTS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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