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what faction is right?[G5]


Wizard Orcasus
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I think that Trakovites are the right Faction becuase creations brings more bad then good and it is true (U can almost say that Mother Nature is PUNISHING the Shapers becuase they are Shaping things to Life and now she make the creations to go rogue and let them even become Intelligent) well it's mine Opinion. Now tell me about ur Opinion smile

I don't see Creations as our children. ( rebels )

I don't use Creations as our Bodyguards or Servants u can almost say they are mindless slaves.( Shapers )

I think Creations are animals that should be left alone or u will get yourself attacked. ( Maybe Trakovite )

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Originally Posted By: Randomizer
None of them, so squeeze them all for whatever you can to make yourself powerful.


Auyep. That's pretty much it.

It's hard to say which one is more 'right'. That's the point, they're not black and white. Both have good points and bad points.

Personally, though, I do tend to favor towards the Shapers. Controlling shaping prevents more disasters, and keeps lunatics from wreaking havoc. Not that some of the shapers aren't lunatics, however... Who can say?

However, my opinion doesn't affect my gameplay in the slightest. I do what will give me the most reward. I'm a bit Munchkinish. tongue
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You say Shapers cannot be trusted because some go mad... but you trust Litalia? I suggest you re-examine some of her actions in Geneforge III, ha- The Academy, the mind controlled serviles, the creators, the monastary of tears, she was responsible for all of it, with a healthy helping of sanctimonious lecturing! Litalia is probably the single *worst* individual in the entire series, bar Taygen. Her becoming the leader of the Trakovites was the worst thing that could have happened for the organization.

 

As for who is the *right* faction, I would have to go with Alwan. Unfortunately there is no moderate shaper faction in Geneforge V, since Alwan is a traditionalist, Rawal is on no one's side but his own, Taygen is a genocidal maniac, and Astoria isn't even a shaper faction. Since I believe that shaping is a power that needs to be controlled, and the rebels oppose that 100%, I have to go with the Shapers, despite my dislike of how they treat Serviles. I personally think that giving creations such as Serviles more rights is a change that needs to take place from within the shaper organization itself. Destroying it lets loose a whole number of other problems, as we have seen, such as unbound, self shaping, and genocide. As we see over the course of the series, the actions of the rebels only serve to push the shapers further and further away from questioning their practices. While Alwan is not perfect, he is the best the Shapers have at the moment, and far better than the Drakons, Litalia. (and personally, Astoria strikes me as a bit dense)

 

*spoilers below*

 

I was plesantly suprised how nice Alwan is in his ending however, he even lets Greta and the Drakons live after he defeats them, and it made me gain a lot more respect for him. I find it interesting how much as a character he grows over the series, a lot more than that worthless, cannister-warped, Drakon-lackey Greta!

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It's ur opinion and I respect it but Litalia /quote]

 

She was for a very short time a Shaper, but for 99% of the Geneforge series she was an insane Rebel. In fact, so mad I thought she was suppose to of been dead in each game, only to hear she somehow made it into the next. Now I hear she magically shaped herself into a Trakovite.

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It's ur opinion and I respect it but u say that all that was shaped to Life will die?... maybe the creations that can't reproduce will die but I think that the plants can reproduce like they can make seeds.So I doubt the plants that have been shaped will die. P.S did u guys notice that the area of Rebels have no grass?

(I think it's called Grayghost Mountain idk) It can be true that the plants that have been shaped will die with time. If I was Litalia I would bend the rules of the Trakovites and let the Shapers shape some plants but the long lasting ones,not the ones that they will always need to shape.

Well if I was Litalia I would go to Sucia Island and call it Trakovanos Island and again bend the rules to choose only people that can be trusted to shape. I would call them the 'Allowed Ones' and train them in melee,magic and shaping! so they can protect Trakovanos Island.

And ofcos they will receive a lot of training. smile these are only some ideas if Jeff ever read this post u could use some of what I said for maybe another game u will make? smile thx guys I want to know more opinions. P.S I want someon to really proof that the Trakovites are tottaly wrong. ( Trakovites allow the use of Magic! smile thats very kind and with time they could go do a lot of research to improve their spells or make new spells available!^^, that would be really cool smile )

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Lol Litalia never magically shaped herself into a Trakovite but I think I know what u mean Litalia have been in all the 3 sects, the Shapers , the Rebels, and now the Trakovites sect. she had experienced with the Rebels and Shapers sects to only notice that the Trakovite sect is the Just one but ofcos they have their bad points. If I was an outsider I would believe in the believes of the Trakovites in silent so the shapers won't notice me because they will kill me. The Shapers doesn't have tottaly control over their creations some of them even go rogue or are too free and intelligent and not to say manage to even escape!( like those thahds that were in the workshop in the Whites Spires, one of them was intelligent! it's a really goodluck that he didn't go rogue and begin to kill people)It shows u that not even shapers can't control their creations even if it was an accident they need to be more carefull because what if that thahd with his other friendo's have gone rogue and kill some people (outsiders)! I don't know if people see it but the shapers doesn't really care if a creation dies nor a servile and more bad even an human an outsider! because if they really care they would be 100% procent careful with their creations and secrets! I would like to see more opinions smile

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Originally Posted By: Catoblepas
Litalia is probably the single *worst* individual in the entire series...

I will have to disagree, she always fought for her beliefs, it's a different matter that her beliefs kept changing as she saw more and more of the world and gained experience, It was also admirable that she managed to pretty much cure herself of canister addiction ,a very difficult task considering the challenges she always kept facing,No "bad at heart" guy would have managed to do that.
As for the faction i am inclined to go with the trakovites, the rebellion started BECAUSE shapers had their bad points,It grew into something which certainly can't be supported (Unbound and such) and basically it was the power of shaping that led to all this destruction, the trakovites even if not perfect seem to be the most reasonable and sane faction in this hindsight.
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Originally Posted By: Mosquito---Slayer
Originally Posted By: Catoblepas
Litalia is probably the single *worst* individual in the entire series...

I will have to disagree, she always fought for her beliefs, it's a different matter that her beliefs kept changing as she saw more and more of the world and gained experience, It was also admirable that she managed to pretty much cure herself of canister addiction ,a very difficult task considering the challenges she always kept facing,No "bad at heart" guy would have managed to do that.
As for the faction i am inclined to go with the trakovites, the rebellion started BECAUSE shapers had their bad points,It grew into something which certainly can't be supported (Unbound and such) and basically it was the power of shaping that led to all this destruction, the trakovites even if not perfect seem to be the most reasonable and sane faction in this hindsight.


She might have cured her addiction, but I don't think that automatically makes her a good person, or means she is 'good at heart'. The only things that change about her over the course of the eries is her reliance on cannisters and her faction. She still uses the same methods, and always holds an absolutist moralistic view for whatever faction she belongs to. Furthermore, I think her actions in geneforge 3 speak for herself- she actually likens the school massacre to the servile massacre she participated in that turned her away from the order. Somehow she seems unable to connect the two morally. And lets not forget the way she leaves cannisters scattered behind in her wake-it's implied on the second island that at least some of these are intended to be bribes, that is-she is trying to turn the PC from the shaper order not only with her paper-thin morality tirades, but by making the PC an addict. There is evidence in Geneforge 3 that she doesn't even consider serviles or other intellignet creations to be equals, despite her much spouted morality. She outright says that she does not care what you do to the creator on the first island, and on the second island, there is a rogue mage who keeps a private army of mind-controlled servilles-with Litalia's consent and support. Of course there are the spawners and creators- which are far more of a danger to outsiders than to the shapers themselves. Lastly, there is the monastary of tears-run by outsiders who could not have been more removed from the conflict in ideology and physical location. They were outsiders, they had no creations, they did not provide any aid or comfort to the shapers, and were rounded up and massacred on Litalia's orders. She didn't *have* to even kill them, it is heavily implied that most if not all surrendered or were camptured, but were executed nontheless. Litalia in geneforge 3 is an absolute monster who commits all of the evils she accuses the shapers of and then some, and is a complete hypocrite who cannot/ will not see the contradiction in her words. In G4 she goes off the cannisters, yet it is outright stated in dialogue that she does not see serviles/humans as people and is only mimicking human emotion-I think that if anything, her morality is more ego-driven than anything else at that point. she obviously has no investment in those around her-she is only going through the motions of what she *thinks* is moral without any capacity to understand morality.
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She did betray the rebels and join the Trakovites, which is a good thing, but I question if she did it because she is 'good at heart' By the end of Geneforge 3 she stripped pretty much all human emotion and has utter contempt for the PC, in Geneforge 4 she is trying to learn how to act more human, but it is obvious from he dialogue that she sees other sentients as objects, not as equals. Her moralizing was never solid to begin with-in Geneforge 3, where her most heinous crimes were committed, she is at her most human, she only loses humanity over the series, and it is heavily implied that what humanity she shows in G4+5 is faked. Heck, over the course of the series, she gives what? Three different stories on why she betrayed the Shapers? She also keeps the PC's identity from them in G5 (one of two people who definately know the PC's identity), there really is no reason to trust her whatsoever, considering she has no empathy for people, lies through her teeth, and seems to feel like morality is tied to her by taking as extreme measures as possible to obtain her goals, this is a horrible combination, IMO. People who cannot empathize are the last people who should be moralizing, esp peopel like Litalia who have such extreme 'my way or no way' and are willing to go to such extreme measures to ensure victory.

 

Taking over the Trakovites utilated the movement into almost the polar opposite of what it originally stood for. Old Trakovites were a reaction towards the evils of shaping, and was more of a philophical/non-violent movement. Litalia stoops to exactly the same depths as the Shapers and Rebels, and personally embodies the worst of both factions through her actions in G3 and G4 and in her backstory. The Trakovite ending in G4 proves that the Trakovites did not need her to win, but by embracing her as their leader, they became something far less noble. Remember that in G4, the Trakovites sent an emissary to her-whom she sent roamers after to hunt down and kill. In G5 the same person who would send roamers to tear someone limb from limb, someone who was a diplomat from a largely non-violent philosophy is setting the agenda for that same faction, IMO the Trakovites from 5 and 4 are two different animals.

 

We will be switching over to the new boards on Monday, the topic probably won't carry over.

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Guys today i finaly made it i finally could get the purity agent thing done and litalia said to the council that they can make creations that can reproduce only. i'm very happy with litalia's allowance sorry if i said creations should not be made anymore. now i see the only ones that can reproduce can only be made after all those are the ones that truely have a space in our world smile now for sure this topic is closed

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I will concede that she did some pretty brutal things in G3 and maybe she was a bad individual there, but as G4 and G5 are concerned she is trying to rectify what she did and she is trying to become a better person, Looking at serviles and humans as objects is not something that's her choice she is forced to do that because of the effects of canister, the only possible solution to that is giving up canisters and she manages to accomplish this painful maneuver, as for her taking extreme measures you have to consider that she was always fighting for the faction which was very small at that time and needed to be kept alive by whatever means, her not dwelling into the PC's identity is just a reflection of the fact that she wants to leave her gruesome past behind and THAT is not a bad thing.

As for trakovites accepting her you have to consider that they were a small faction hunted by both shapers and rebels and would probably have a sure extinction if they did not accept her, That might have to some degree made them impure but it was a necessary step to keep the movement alive and moralistically right too because this will eventually lead to a better life for people compared to the case when they would be wiped out.

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All right... this thread got wayyyy off track wayyyy too fast...

 

I believe the title is "what faction is right" not "CANDY CREATIONS! YAAY!"

 

Now, for the correct faction? There really is no "right" persay faction. All of them have their rights and wrongs, pros and cons.

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I agree. I think people naturally have a way of being able to point out which factions they do *not* like in the geneforge games... but trying to find one that is objectively 'good' is an exercise in insanity for the most part. In Geneforge 5 I think that Alwan is the 'best' faction choice that I have experienced (still have yet to try Astoria) but that beign said, he is only the best out of the pack of terrorists, genocidal maniacs and self-intrested dictators. I would go as far to say that Geneforge 5 has the least 'good' selection of factions out of the entire series bar Geneforge 2, perhaps.

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Hey, guys, your enthusiasm for Geneforge is awesome, and it's great you have a lot to say about these great games, but as it stands there are three or four threads in this forum which have basically just become you guys chatting to one another.

 

Obviously I can't tell you not to post, but if you're just having a conversation to one another maybe moving your discussion to a private message would be better; I know I'm having a hard time keeping up, and it'd make the threads less cluttered with general chit-chat.

 

Thanks. :)

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