Avernum 5: First Playthrough Thoughts

[Kelandon]

[boring backstory: After playing every Spidweb game as it came out, I quit around the release of GF4. I felt that Avernum 4 was a particularly weak release, and while I didn't have the complaints about GF3 that most others did, I chose a totally wrong character build for GF4 that eventually made the game nearly impossible and therefore utterly no fun. As a result, I pretty much quit playing Spidweb games.

 

However, when Avadon came out, I decided to give it a shot, and I liked it enough that I decided to come back and play A5, A6, GF4, and maybe GF5 if I get around to it. Now that the school year is over and I have a moment, I'm starting with A5. I realize that I'm a few years late to the party, but I figured I'd post the occasional thoughts and see what people think, if anyone cares at all.]

 

I'm playing Avernum 5 on Normal, and I just got through Tranquility. Gladwell kind of freaked me out, so I didn't go for the geas, and I've been telling the Darkside Loyalists to screw off when they try to recruit me.

 

My party setup has been first-character melee fighter, second character pole fighter-bow archer, third character priest-mage, fourth character mage-priest. (Each character has a primary focus and some additional skills in something else.) This has not been a particularly good party arrangement, especially since the second character is a slith (by default, I think; should've made him a nephil, but didn't think about it at the time). I probably should've made the third character a priest-bow archer, rather than a priest-mage, but it's a little late for that; I might buy him some bow skills from the guy in Tranquility, though.

 

On Normal, I haven't had serious problems. I can get through pretty much every fight on the first try, except the very hardest, which take two or three tries. Combat balance seems mostly reasonable.

 

But, and here's the point I probably should've started with, the most notable thing about this game is that it seems most like Avernum 3, with some nods to GF. I'm not sure what I expected, maybe something a little more plot-driven, but this isn't what I thought I would find.

 

What I mean is that the game seems almost entirely based on exploration, rather than plot. There aren't really characters or a storyline; there are just locations and largely interchangeable quests. You're wandering around in areas that are sort of hostile but essentially tamed, even if they are overrun with monsters, almost exactly like A3's monster plagues. Indeed, this is is A3 inverted: where A3 was an Avernite going to the surface and meeting with general distrust amid the monster plagues, A5 is an Empire soldier going into Avernum and meeting with general distrust and monster plagues. The sequential exploration of areas also feels very A3; while you didn't have to go strictly in order in A3, the difficulty ramped up in such as way that you probably would anyway.

 

The nods to GF come from the occasional Darkside recruiting efforts, but whereas in GF I usually felt at least a little torn, the Darkside Loyalists are just utterly unappealing to me. Some other things seem sort of Geneforge-y, but I can't quite place them now.

 

Anyway, this A3-ish vibe that I'm getting from A5 isn't bad, just surprising. I came back to Spidweb because of Avadon, so I guess I was expecting something slightly more linear and plot-driven, but hey, I really liked A3 back when I first played it.

 

Maybe there's more plot here than I'm giving Jeff credit for, and I'm just ignoring it because I feel like I'm playing one of my own scenarios. My BoE scenario from circa 2001, NK0P, was supposed to be the prologue to a several-part series taking place in the "Northern Kingdom" of Avernum, i.e. the Northern Frontier of A5. (The acronym stands for Northern Kingdom 0: Prologue.) Apparently, Jeff had the very same idea and made a game out of it. I'd say that the giant river journey reminds me of Exodus, but frankly, I stole the premise from the Za-Khazi Run.

 

Anyway, I'm having fun so far, but I kind of hope that the "hunt for Dorikas" thing actually picks up at some point, because right now it's feeling very ZKR-drawing-focus-ish. I also hope that this party build doesn't end up being completely untenable, even on Normal, in later areas.

[Lilith]

Jeff has said you're not really supposed to like the Darkside Loyalists; they're straight-up villainous, he just gave players the option to join them in case anyone felt like playing as the bad guy for a change. I don't really get it either, but...

[Randomizer]

Or you can be opportunistic and get training and items from the Darkside Loyalists before killing them.

[Kelandon]

Follow-up: I'm in the middle of the Howling Depths. This may be my favorite sequence in any Spidweb game since the assault on the Ornotha Ziggurat in A2 (which I think was my favorite sequence in any Spidweb game ever).

 

It is rather long, though.

[Erebus the Black]

The Howling depths Long!? Have you finished them yet? Either you should use haste more or a party of 2 really simplifies that entire rush (or the adrenalin was really pumping when I was going through them that I hadn't really noticed the length).

 

Click to reveal..

tip: IIRC there's a secret tunnel midway that can be used as a choke point and a resting/regrouping spot if you're feeling overwhelmed.

[Kelandon]

To be fair, I have been killing every single enemy and collecting everything that they drop through the whole encounter, and I have had to reload a couple of times. If I had just run past that second encounter with the archers raining down arrows instead of insisting on killing all the archers, it would've gone faster.

 

Okay, time to finish it.

[nikki.]

I kind of lost steam in A5 after this; I really enjoyed the Howling Depths sequence, but (and I'm not entirely sure why) I lost interest in finishing almost immediately after completing it.

[Kelandon]

Originally Posted By: Flowers in Dikimber

I kind of lost steam in A5 after this; I really enjoyed the Howling Depths sequence, but (and I'm not entirely sure why) I lost interest in finishing almost immediately after completing it.

Wow, I've had almost exactly the opposite reaction. Highground and surroundings are awesome. I really get the feeling that I'm out in the wilds, now, which is what the Northern Frontier was billed as. Maybe it's just my general antipathy towards the Anama and my feeling that Tranquility didn't really do everything that it could have — if you have an entire planned community created and ruled by an extremely powerful but slightly too self-obsessed mage, it should have a little more wild magic than just the occasional construct going nuts — but this is the first time since going through the first rapids that I feel excited to explore a new area.

[Earth]

Howling Depth was annoying due respawns and that big bad enemy there around halfway and of course those not respawning loyalists at the end, archers range wasn't nice.

[Kelandon]

Almost done with the Azure Gallery. The giants were easier than I expected; I used the Submission Bow on their queen, and she stopped having turns to attack me. I gather we were supposed to have some sort of dialogue or something after she first charged me, but that never happened, because she just stopped being able to move.

 

The only fight that I'm still having trouble with is Morbo; he's just immune to any kind of damage that I can throw at him, as far as I can tell. I tried tossing area of effect spell after area of effect spell to kill his summons, but I ran out of spell points before he ran out of health. I then tried to conserve spell points and fight a very long attrition battle, but after about half an hour, a misplaced spellcaster or two led me to lose again. I think I'll come back after doing some other stuff. Oh, and I didn't do Lark's quest in this area yet.

 

In general, I'm enjoying exploration a little more. The Muck-Highground rivalry was interesting to watch (I ended up siding with Muck). I'm looking forward to meeting vahnatai, which I gather is next.

 

I tried to go back to complete some of the old Shanker's Tower quests and such, but I had one fewer boat than I thought. Weren't there supposed to be three boats available to me at the first docks? I took one down the rapids on the first trip, then I went down the rapids again to do a follow-up quest, and now I don't seem to have any boats left upstream.

[Randomizer]

There should have been 3 boats back where you start at Harston Docks and there is another at Shankar's Tower that is borrowable. You may have left a boat somewhere and forgotten it when you used a pylon like at Gladwell's Tower or on the far side of Shankar's Tower.

 

I really hated Morbo and found the easiest way to wear him down is to charm its creations against him. Nothing seem to do more than 10 damage.

[Kelandon]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

There should have been 3 boats back where you start at Harston Docks and there is another at Shankar's Tower that is borrowable. You may have left a boat somewhere and forgotten it when you used a pylon like at Gladwell's Tower or on the far side of Shankar's Tower.

Before I went on a crazy wild goose chase, I just wanted to confirm this. All right, I'll go searching around.

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

I really hated Morbo and found the easiest way to wear him down is to charm its creations against him. Nothing seem to do more than 10 damage.

As of right now, I don't appear to have any charming spells. I guess I'll remedy that and then come back for Morbo.

[Erebus the Black]

IIRC there's a borowable boat at Gladwell's tower which automatically returns to him after a while (when you're not in it)

[Kelandon]

Found a boat at Shankar's Tower. Not sure what happened, but I got it.

 

Wandering around vahnatai lands now. I'm kind of underwhelmed, but maybe I'm just tired and need to stop playing for the day.

[Earth]

I suggest you to hop around via pylons and search your boats since you need to go twice via boat to Harkins Landing and you need 1 to wander around Shankar's area etc. If 3 of your boats are at Harkins Landing then you are bit screwed especially if you haven't killed that menace during 2nd trip to Harkins.

[Kelandon]

No, I found the third boat. I got it.

 

I'm now in Melanchion's area, not totally finished with the vahnatai. I just wanted to escape through the underground passages in that middle area and see what happened. My getting smacked around a fair bit is what happened, but I made it.

 

I have to say, and I imagine I'm not the first to think this, that the Cienna betrayal was almost exactly the same as the Miranda betrayal in Avadon. It was also somewhat less interesting, because it was phrased as a kind of duress rather than something personal, and because it was kind of telegraphed (given her weird responses somewhat before that). I ended up killing her, though I was glad that I got a chance to forgive her at the end.

 

Melanchion is cool. I'd rather that nothing awful happen to him, but everything around the area is suggesting that something will. Also, the GIFTS. Oh, the GIFTS. And the one GIFTC. I've always found the GIFTS strange distractions before, but I really liked them this time. They had a little more character and personality (the one who wanted to be an aranea, the one who was a shopkeeper).

[Jerakeen]

Melanchion's ultimate fate depends on you.

[Randomizer]

Well that and if you are interested in loot upstairs and don't run fast enough.

[Earth]

I ran from 1st gight against Melanchion and came back later and killed her/him although it took a while and later killed Solberg too, 2 kills w/o any impact to future.

[Kelandon]

I'm now at the (long) entrance to Dorikas's fortress. It seems like there are unnecessary respawns coming from ahead of me, and this entrance is taking for-freaking-ever.

 

I finally ran back to the pylon to recharge before I go at it again. I like this attack, but I don't like the spawns.

[Earth]

yea trip to Dorika's fortress is bit like Howling Depths but eventually you get thru.

[Chessrook44]

I just finished Avernum 5. To (I have no idea what that symbol is... so I'll call you E), those are infinite respawns much like in the Howling Depths. Only difference is that they're in front of you instead of behind you. Once you reach the fortress it's easier.

 

And I gotta say, loved this game as well. More comedy than A4 and plenty of parts I enjoyed, even with a few frustrating parts. And yet, the end remained quite enjoyable and nice.

[Kelandon]

After life intervened for a bit, I finally got around to finishing A5. The Dorikas fight at the end was okay. Somehow I enjoyed the A1-3 end battles better, maybe because they seemed more... different. Dorikas just seemed like a particularly long boss fight, but he wasn't fundamentally different from any of the previous boss fights. Garzahd in A2 was fundamentally different (you use Demonslayer or it doesn't work). Rentar in A3 was fundamentally different (you fight your way to a control panel, but you can't kill Rentar). Dorikas was just the end boss.

 

Fortunately, it didn't suck, the way that fighting Redbeard in Avadon sucks. Everything else reminded me so much of Avadon that I was worried that it was going to turn out the same way, but it didn't.

 

Overall, a good game. Not Spidweb's finest, but not its worst, either. It was a little hit or miss, but I'd rank it somewhere well above A4 and a little below A1-3, GF1, and Avadon.

[Slawbug]

Garzahd in E2 was even more fundamentally different: the special preparations needed to defeat him (the non-Herculean way) involved traveling all over Exile, consulting with archmages, collecting fire lizard eggs and crystals, tracing a misplaced artifact that you need only for its side effect, and ultimately protecting your mage while she engaged Garzahd in a psionic battle.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Garzahd in E2 was even more fundamentally different: the special preparations needed to defeat him (the non-Herculean way) involved traveling all over Exile, consulting with archmages, collecting fire lizard eggs and crystals, tracing a misplaced artifact that you need only for its side effect, and ultimately protecting your mage while she engaged Garzahd in a psionic battle.

it's arguably easier to just beat him up though

[Slawbug]

Beating him up was a long slog (or at least, what passed for a long slog in those slogless days). A properly set up Minddueler, which means two rings (thanks, Waldby!) plus Micah's Gloves -- the 20 Int and 99 SP should go without saying -- makes very short work of him.

[Juan Carlo]

Originally Posted By: ξ

Not Spidweb's finest, but not its worst, either. It was a little hit or miss, but I'd rank it somewhere well above A4 and a little below A1-3, GF1, and Avadon.

I'm nearing the end of A5 myself and these are basically my thoughts. I'd probably rate A5 and A4 as my least favorite spiderweb games, although I'd argue A4 is better than A5 just because its plot is slightly better (not by much, but it at least has momentum once you get to mid game) and it's WAY less tedious to play just because, while it doesn't have as interesting of encounters, it at least has less HP bloat. To its credit I do think A5 has some interesting boss fights and challenge areas (way more than A4) and it's nice that it's set in a new location, but it's marred in my view by its lack of an interesting plot, linearity, massive HP bloat on higher difficulties, and prevalence of a bit too much trash mob combat at times. People who finish this game should get some sort of medal (especially on torment).

However, I do rather like the skill system, items, and training availability, though. It seems that the possibilities of what you can do in constructing your characters and fitting them out with items are much greater than in A4. Plus, the Geases make for an interesting touch.