Gross National Happiness: Rebels v Shapers

[rist]

Most of the game's 'faction support' questions relate to the treatment of serviles.

 

This is a bit unfair to the Shaper side, as that is probably the only aspect in which they lag behind the rebels in terms of generating the greatest amount of social utility.

 

It's not as if Shapers are horrible to creations when compared to the plight of pets and livestock in the real world.

 

Supporting the rebellion is a terrible idea if your goal is to save lives and livelihoods. Replacing a stable, prosperous, opportunity-laden 'oligarchy of the educated' with a complete unknown, through war, is pretty hard to justify.

 

I think a Shaper who wishes to maximise social utility should crush the rebellion while taking pragmatic steps to demonstrate the advantages of greater servile sovereignty to the shaper community.

[Alorael at Large]

There's a difference between pets and livestock and creations: pets and livestock aren't sapient. Serviles, drayks, and drakons are, and the Shapers want to essentially enslave the first and eradicate the second two.

 

In other words, the Shapers aren't horrible, except for the slavery and genocide. Those are strongly held to be unconscionable crimes, and in fact the acceptance of such fringe behavior for the greater good is one of the major challenges to utilitarianism.

 

—Alorael, who also wouldn't be so quick to call the Shapers great proponents of social utility. They maintain stability, yes, but only by rigid hierarchy. If you are not a Shaper, you do not have power, and you largely have no recourse. They have a stable, relatively benign totalitarian state, but totalitarian it is. The rebels are unproven, and with the drakons especially not clearly invested in anything more noble than a different hierarchy, but a chattel-holding, genocidal totalitarian state isn't the most comfortable thing to support on utilitarian grounds.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

things also tend to get messy in any revolution. you can see that throughout the series things get really radicalized. from the unbound to the purity agent both sides have their extremists. and even the trakovites get really genocidal at the end.

once things get heated up everyone loses focus and moves from peaceful or semi peaceful change to annihilate all opposition.

[Shaper Shaper]

I hate the rebels. They preach that you must protect the innocent animals, when they are the ones who are destroying cities full of millions of innocent people and killing both Shapers and Shaper creations. They are great hypocrites. If their cause is won, the Drakons would rise against them and kill all of the humans and creations. Nobody but the Drakons would be in favor of that. Even if the Drakons don't come into power, the Lifecrafters are just going to replace the Shapers, but they are just going to be worse because they neither have the wisdom to control creations justly (and will have all of the creations go out of control) and their power is going to all be hoarded. Unlike how Shapers get power, Lifecrafters use canisters and the Geneforge. Anybody can get power by using those and the humans will forever be on a full out war with other humans to get that power. No. The rebels are fighting for a stupid cause. They remind me of communists, those who preach equality and togetherness while they kill the ones who try to keep stability.

 

[Note: The Shapers are even better than absolute monarchs as they have to have displayed intelligence and wisdom in order to get power. Monarchs just obtain power by being bored.]

[Tracer Bullet]

Interesting final point. I believe a society like that is called a technocracy.

 

The rebellion, on the other hand, from what I've seen of them, seems to be a military dictatorship.

 

This is a bit odd, considering that the rebels are supposed to be advocating egalitarianism.

 

I still go Awakened every chance I get, though.

[Alorael at Large]

The United States, before they were called that or even especially united, declared that they had rights and needed to be protected. Then they killed a fair number of people to make that so.

 

How the rebels would govern is fairly unclear, because the games don't show what life is like under rebel occupation. We see the warzones, and not even martial law; instead, we see military. It's possible they don't have any ideology or plan for establishing a new rule of law; all they know is that the Shapers must go. Not an ideal way to set about overthrow of a government, but that doesn't mean they're wrong.

 

It's also not at all clear that the rebels can't control their creations. They do try to treat creations better, less like things and more like people or animals, and that mentality is less likely to lead to rampant rogues. They use canisters and the Geneforge, yes, but it's not clear that they would particularly want to continue when those powers were no longer needed for warfare, or even that the results would be an unleashed disaster as long as the rebels policed themselves... which they at least try to do. And given the (human) rebels' stance, it's more likely that they would, at least initially, welcome more people obtaining more power and joining them. It's the Shapers who are big on exclusivity of power, and that's one of the major drivers of the rebellion.

 

The current Shapers have displayed no intelligence or wisdom. Look at the Shaper Council! No, they've inherited a system built for the comfort and security of the Shapers, and they're misusing it. And the original system wasn't created by benevolent wisdom, it was conquered by shapers with the military advantage of armies of creations. They're not an oligarchy, they're an occupation.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't want to excuse the rebels. They're not good guys. But the Shapers aren't innocents either, and they're no benevolent rulers.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: GlaxoTimeGoogle

It's also not at all clear that the rebels can't control their creations. They do try to treat creations better, less like things and more like people or animals, and that mentality is less likely to lead to rampant rogues.

What.

Have you... have you even played any Geneforge game past the first? The Shapers have a lot of problems, yes, but rogue creations wasn't one of them. IIRC, 90% of all the rogues and rogue problems we've seen were the results of the rebels, either through sabotage, rebel-created (and under Shaper law, illegal) spawners, or just creating a bunch of creatures and setting them loose to terrorize people (The Unbound are the biggest but not the only example). There's a few lesser examples of rogues with Shapers, but most of them are rapidly dealt with and handled.

I'm not saying that the Shapers are great; far from it. But the rebellion is far from the saintly image you painted above; the rebellion's shaping policies show a complete and utter disregard to the life of creations. Look at some of the monstrosities the rebellion created. Look at how the rebellion threw hundreds of creations into the proverbial wood-chipper. The only real difference between the Rebellion and the Shapers is that the Shapers are at least slightly more responsible with the kind of raw power Shaping provides.

[Dikiyoba]

Quote:

...the rebellion's shaping policies show a complete and utter disregard to the life of creations. Look at some of the monstrosities the rebellion created. Look at how the rebellion threw hundreds of creations into the proverbial wood-chipper. The only real difference between the Rebellion and the Shapers is that the Shapers are at least slightly more responsible with the kind of raw power Shaping provides.

The rebellion as a whole is worse than the Shapers to non-sapient animal creations, but they're far better than Shapers to sapient creation people. That's a pretty big and important difference.

Dikiyoba.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

The rebellion as a whole is worse than the Shapers to non-sapient animal creations, but they're far better than Shapers to sapient creation people. That's a pretty big and important difference.

Dikiyoba.

That was only really true until the Drakons started taking control. Once the rebellion became about Drakons, it became pretty clear that anything that wasn't a drakon was a second-class citizen and very close to being in the same boat as serviles were under the Shapers.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Once the rebellion became about Drakons, it became pretty clear that anything that wasn't a drakon was a second-class citizen and very close to being in the same boat as serviles were under the Shapers.

The drakons haven't totally taken over the rebellion. There are still enough humans, serviles, and drayks left who aren't under the drakon's heels or who remember what the rebellion's cities and outposts were like before the drakons took charge.

And for the intelligent serviles and drayks, they may be second-class citizens, but at least they aren't exterminated on sight as they would be under Shaper rule. Humans do get a worse deal under the drakons though, so eh.

Dikiyoba still gives a slight edge to the rebellion. Or to the Trakovites, for being a place where the three races can work together against the Shapers and the drakons even if their ideology is painfully unrealistic and their odds of success basically nil.

[Alorael at Large]

The rebels wage total war with no restriction on what they're willing to weaponize. Mass producing creations and turning them loose is a tactic. They're not unable to control their creations, and they're not precisely unwilling, either. They're deliberately unleashing them as a plague. I'm not going to say that marks them as enlightened future rulers, but it also doesn't mean they'd do the same if the war were over. But I'll agree that we don't really know what life is like under a stable, peaceful Shaper empire. That's boring, so the games focus on when that isn't happening.

 

Put another way, the rebellion is horrible to everyone. They're willing to throw all their material and people into the meat grinder. They violate human/sapient rights, the Geneva Convention, and often good sense. But they do it for a reason that's at least ostensibly and partially better than "because we rule, and any opposition will be crushed ruthlessly."

 

—Alorael, who thinks the rebels are simply pragmatic. The Shapers do have an immense advantage. If the rebels weren't so desperately willing to break every rule and cross every line, they would have been put down quickly. They really can't afford scruples; the Trakovites can, but only because neither side is going to expend effort on quashing a small fringe group.

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

What.

Have you... have you even played any Geneforge game past the first? The Shapers have a lot of problems, yes, but rogue creations wasn't one of them. IIRC, 90% of all the rogues and rogue problems we've seen were the results of the rebels,

Shapers created the rebels who spawned those rogue creations.

[defen]

I think the Russian revolution/civil war would be a good ideological analogy: shapers as monarchists/White Army, Takers->mainline rebels as Communists, Awakened as the short-lived Provisional Government, Trakovites as Makhno's Black Army. The fascist factions don't really fit, but none of them endure beyond a single game.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

Originally Posted By: Nioca

What.

Have you... have you even played any Geneforge game past the first? The Shapers have a lot of problems, yes, but rogue creations wasn't one of them. IIRC, 90% of all the rogues and rogue problems we've seen were the results of the rebels,

Shapers created the rebels who spawned those rogue creations.

And it was innocent civilians who created the Shapers. By the logic you present, every living sophont on Terrestria is guilty of creating or supporting tyranny, regardless of how far removed they actually are.

Originally Posted By: GlaxoTimeGoogle

Put another way, the rebellion is horrible to everyone. They're willing to throw all their material and people into the meat grinder. They violate human/sapient rights, the Geneva Convention, and often good sense. But they do it for a reason that's at least ostensibly and partially better than "because we rule, and any opposition will be crushed ruthlessly."

Again, I have to ask whether you've actually played the games. The Shapers are not ruling Terrestria with an iron fist "because we rule and will squish people". They're doing it because they know what kind of catastrophe can happen if the wrong people get their hands on Shaping powers. The rebellion's living proof of how much destruction can be caused if it falls into the wrong hands. Admittedly, Shaper society has degraded when we see it in GF5, but they're still ostensibly doing the wrong thing for the right reasons, same as the rebels.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

The Shapers are not ruling Terrestria with an iron fist "because we rule and will squish people". They're doing it because they know what kind of catastrophe can happen if the wrong people get their hands on Shaping powers.

That's their stated reasoning, anyway. But they gave up plenty of chances to compromise before a full-scale war broke out and (aw, the G3 ending images finally died) the G3 rebel ending makes it very, very clear that the Shapers care more about remaining in total control than they do about avoiding catastophe. The Shapers say something along the lines of "even if we end up having to reduce the world to rubble, we're still going to be the ones ruling it."

Dikiyoba.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Originally Posted By: Nioca

The Shapers are not ruling Terrestria with an iron fist "because we rule and will squish people". They're doing it because they know what kind of catastrophe can happen if the wrong people get their hands on Shaping powers.

That's their stated reasoning, anyway. But they gave up plenty of chances to compromise before a full-scale war broke out and (aw, the G3 ending images finally died) the G3 rebel ending makes it very, very clear that the Shapers care more about remaining in total control than they do about avoiding catastophe. The Shapers say something along the lines of "even if we end up having to reduce the world to rubble, we're still going to be the ones ruling it."

Dikiyoba.

I did state that their society has degraded. However, I could also say the same of the rebels: How many times did they try to negotiate? When they got the upper-hand, they could have negotiated. They did not, at least not until the PC got involved. The war, overall, is less about morality and more about a Total Annihilation-style slugfest where, for each side, the only acceptable outcome is the complete extermination of the other.

This is also why I'm an Awakened/Astoria supporter. The Awakened was not the strongest faction (although they were still a contender until the drakons came along), but at least they could say they mostly stayed true to their principles. And Astoria, I think, is an example of what a Shaper should actually be like, rather than the draconian beast that's currently in power.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

I did state that their society has degraded.

Yes, you said they degraded by Geneforge Five. My example is from the ending of Geneforge Three, when the war was just beginning. If anything, the collapsing Shaper society makes the Shapers better (as in Astoria's willingness to let independent serviles settle in her province and in the G4 Shaper leadership's willingness to recruit human rebel defectors and double agents in exchange for mercy) as often as it made it worse (Taygen).

Quote:

However, I could also say the same of the rebels: How many times did they try to negotiate? When they got the upper-hand, they could have negotiated.

The rebels never really held the upper hand until the end of the war. They got victories early on, but nothing ever serious enough to give them the power to negotiate. The best chance they have is right before the G5 PC comes along, and by that time the bulk of the drakons are too much like the Shapers to want to negotiate. But it's implied that some of the humans and serviles are; how else would Astoria hope to negotiate if she didn't have some contacts among rebel leadership?

Dikiyoba likes the Awakened and Astoria, and sometimes even the Trakovites. But they are only powerful enough to make a difference for very short periods in the Geneforge saga.

[Upon Mars.]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

"Dikiyoba likes the Awakened and Astoria, and sometimes even the Trakovites. But they are only powerful enough to make a difference for very short periods in the Geneforge saga."

Well... Knowing that the Awakened where a bunch of "the ends justify the means" serviles in the first Geneforge and that the Trajkovites are a "Communist" sect descending from the Takers and manipulated by either rebel or Shaper spies as were eco-groups and anti A-bombs groups were in the 1950s, 60, 70s and 80s by Moscow, I think it's safe to say that most of Geneforge's fractions are in a sense a "dirty dozen".

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Originally Posted By: Nioca

I did state that their society has degraded.

Yes, you said they degraded by Geneforge Five. My example is from the ending of Geneforge Three, when the war was just beginning.

Well even before the events of Geneforge 1 the Shaper council is seen as old fashioned, slow moving, senile and not desiring to take out any decisive political action against any enemy especially the ultraconservative shapers like Goettsch, begging to strengthen a probably already well worked out lebensraum from outsider invaders like the Sholai.

I agree with certain Marxist thinkers (like S.Zizek) and the historian George Moss (who wrote the intellectual roots of the III reich) that racism is a means to hinder any real political change, hence why perhaps the shapers are portrayed or at least hinted to be racist: "their strange features disgusts you." -southbridge G1

Also was not hiding the Geneforge as they did whithout any planning for proper evacuation and leaving it alone without any form of proper protection so as to revert back to crude shaper methods instead of splicing genes, the end of the shaper empire hey days and a sign of decay?

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

The Shapers are not ruling Terrestria with an iron fist "because we rule and will squish people". They're doing it because they know what kind of catastrophe can happen if the wrong people get their hands on Shaping powers.

What does absolute rule have to do with suppressing shaping? Their conquest of everyone, everywhere, and complete rule certainly make maintaining tight control easier, but they could just as easily take their military power and become a kind of shaping inquisition. They don't do that. Ruling's much nicer.

—Alorael, who isn't entirely clear on the descent of the Trakovites from the Takers. And he doesn't think they're linked to Trajkov so much as too a mythical version of him. In any case, they're no longer working for anyone else's agenda.

[Goldengirl]

On the Rebels being kind to creations, I think it's worth noting that they're the only side ever portrayed as having creation hospitals. And the Shapers are the only ones who ever "rent" out creations (though there are laws to keep them treated well). Just my two cents.

 

I side with Dikiyoba concerning the Shapers' unwillingness to negotiate. The world may be burned to a husk, but the Shapers will rule that husk. It isn't until Geneforge 5 that anyone is seriously discussing negotiation, and that's for good cause, I believe. Shapers can negotiate with individuals (read:the PC) to get them to leave the Rebellion, but even then it's a "join us! or die" mentality. Before that, everyone who tried to negotiate was attacked as rogues on sight, which is the tragedy of the Awakened. Even in G5, Alwan rejects Ghaldring's offer of negotiations and a ceasefire, although he does have the good justification to believe that this is because the Drakons just want to recoup their losses. Knowing Ghaldring, this is highly probable, but it is still a sign of unwillingness to engage in diplomacy, as the Shapers could regenerate with a ceasefire also.

 

Once the (Shaper) world finally is becoming a husk, though, the Shaper Council finally starts having a change of heart, as seen by the Astoria path to victory. Even then, though, Astoria has to destroy any chance the Shapers have at guaranteed victory (the Purity Agent, defeat at Fort Rockfall) before she can guide the Shaper Council to sanity. It's only when faced with the prospect of a long, gruesome war that they might lose that the Shaper Council comes to the bargaining table - if there are any other feasible options available, the Council refuses negotiation.

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

Shapers created the rebels who spawned those rogue creations.

And it was innocent civilians who created the Shapers. By the logic you present, every living sophont on Terrestria is guilty of creating or supporting tyranny, regardless of how far removed they actually are.

You asserted that "The Shapers have a lot of problems, yes, but rogue creations wasn't one of them." It was rogue drayks, drakons and serviles, *created by Shapers*, who formed the rebellion. Clearly Shapers had (and continue to suffer) problems with rogue creations.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Goldenking

On the Rebels being kind to creations, I think it's worth noting that they're the only side ever portrayed as having creation hospitals.

Shapers have creation hospitals too. On the other hand, the usual given reason for their existence is that it's easier to heal a hurt creation than to kill it and make a new one.

Dikiyoba.

[Upon Mars.]

Originally Posted By: Playing p to your @

—Alorael, who isn't entirely clear on the descent of the Trakovites from the Takers. And he doesn't think they're linked to Trajkov so much as too a mythical version of him. In any case, they're no longer working for anyone else's agenda.

How do you explain the mythical version of him then?

[Alorael at Large]

Word of mouth has transformed Trajkov the Sholai from G1 into "Trakov" the opponent of shaping. The person the sect is named for isn't really Trajkov anymore. It's a manufactured fictional person from oral history who has the traits and personality that match with the sect's goals and intentions.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't necessarily think the Shapers were always a corrupt, self-serving regime. Likely their early years involved serious leadership and the kind of cooperation that builds immense empires. But look at the current leadership, and wonder what kind of healthy empire puts Rawal on the council.

[Upon Mars.]

Originally Posted By: Phlogistonic Cloudbuster

Word of mouth has transformed Trajkov the Sholai from G1 into "Trakov" the opponent of shaping. The person the sect is named for isn't really Trajkov anymore. It's a manufactured fictional person from oral history who has the traits and personality that match with the sect's goals and intentions.

The problem is with Sholai warriors and Mages like Masha present on Terrestia, Sholai present during the events of G1, how comes it then that Trajkov is still seen as an opponent to shaping? Even if it's not really Trajkov anymore, so Why specifically Trajkov? Have we any details on how the Trajkovites perceive Trajkov as a revolutionary figure?

Originally Posted By: Phlogistonic Cloudbuster

—Alorael, who doesn't necessarily think the Shapers were always a corrupt, self-serving regime. Likely their early years involved serious leadership and the kind of cooperation that builds immense empires. But look at the current leadership, and wonder what kind of healthy empire puts Rawal on the council.

And for as for the Shapers being an always corrupt and self serving regime... has anyone evil claimed he was doing evil things just for evil? No, they do it out of good intentions. No matter the intentions or spiritual inner truths you have it's what you do who defines who you are (this is why violence in videogames is so abhorred by society in general, because it shows the truth of today's common man, a barbaric sadist unconcerned by the Geneva conventions, perhaps extremely cooperative and greatly "influencable" in the sense you experience the full might of the cadre of semi liberty which is so repressive in our society;
social studies have shown that people are "sheepish" when given the illusion of choice, making the path they take their own and only their own, while usually one openly rebels when coerced. This is also why Bioshock 1's "would you kindly" plot is so shocking, because the whole game's ideology corner stone is choice, choice placed in a very coercive environment; for example, the player thinks he is free to do as he pleases choosing his weapons when in fact every thing is scripted, from the wall to the water and that you are coerced by Atlas and Rayan to play cards in Rapture betting up big daddies and molesting little sisters.)

The shapers have always claimed to work for the security of everyone, and this is how they gave themselves the power to abuse everyone around them and to delve into everybody' else's affairs. It's not that they are already corrupt, it's just that their ideology leads to nullify their ideals of security and welfare for everyone.