Geneforge 4-Mid Game Help

[Death Knight]

Im currently enjoying my play through of geneforge 4 where im controlling (at the moment) some troops as i lay waste to a mad shaper in the fens of aziraph. Its a friggin warzone as we speak and i need some info for my guardian on normal difficulty.

 

Whats a better route to go with regarding avoidance of getting hit. I currently am a melee user with 9 dexterity, a high enough quick action and melee score that always hits. I dont get hit enough to make it a problem but when i do start getting hit, i usually get hit by some enemies all the time.

 

Will using essence shield/armor help me more with dodging than dumping extra points into dexterity?

[Randomizer]

Essence shield/armor works better the more combined levels you have in the spell, blessing magic, and spellcraft. I think it's 2% per level, at least it was in GF5.

 

The problem with pumping dexterity is the cost to get the next level gets so high that you are better off finding a different way to get the same effect. I know Jeff reduced the benefit of parry in GF4. Also the monsters bump up in the next area to the top tier so it will be harder to avoid getting hit.

[Death Knight]

Thanks randomizer, so this char is doing better than before. I got some items that raised my dex to 11 but thats the max. With clover boots, luck is at 11, though 50% value which sucks.

 

Im going to raise my blessing magic as it will not only make my guardian and 1 creation harder to hit, at lvl 5 blessing i can cast mass energize which sounds awesome. The game definitely still has its toughness even later in the series, heh.

 

Should i at least get parry to 10 since I'm a guardian or should i just focus on evasion more?

[Randomizer]

Parry is cheap for a guardian so it is worth it. I can't remember if it works against magic spells in this game.

[Death Knight]

I give up on this game. I am lvl 25 and cant go anywhere without dying constantly. My guardian can kill things yes, but if i dont die (in about 2 rounds), my lvl 25 vlish who i kept will die. There are neverending rogues spawning in 5-6 areas, there are no indicators that i should use to secretly go around and find monarch. Ive explored all of the areas that i could and cannot get into north grosht.

 

The last time i played this game series was in geneforge 1, the game was horribly imbalanced, now this game is worse. You are supposed to be shapers who can destroy creations without a thought. Moseh could barely hit me and was easy, yet every single creation in mid game can hit me for an absurd amount of damage and kill me like a drop of a hat. Where is jeff's logic?

 

This character is lost, i might as well find an editor to edit my stats. Anyone know a good editor thats easy to use?

[Nim]

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

I give up on this game. I am lvl 25 and cant go anywhere without dying constantly. My guardian can kill things yes, but if i dont die (in about 2 rounds), my lvl 25 vlish who i kept will die. There are neverending rogues spawning in 5-6 areas, there are no indicators that i should use to secretly go around and find monarch. Ive explored all of the areas that i could and cannot get into north grosht.

You're playing a warrior and all you have as help is a lousy vlish ? Consider playing a servile if you don't really care about creations.
Once you kill a certain something under South Grosh the outer Fens can be cleared.
You can go into North Grosh from the south and from the east.

[nikki.]

The enemies in these areas ARE super-hard. There's an in-game justification for that, though. Once you've infiltrated the mad shapers lair, and dealt with him, the enemies up top will become much easier to kill.

 

In short: don't give up! It's frustrating now, but (for better or worse), it's supposed to be that way. It does get better

[Death Knight]

Originally Posted By: thursday

The enemies in these areas ARE super-hard. There's an in-game justification for that, though. Once you've infiltrated the mad shapers lair, and dealt with him, the enemies up top will become much easier to kill.

In short: don't give up! It's frustrating now, but (for better or worse), it's supposed to be that way. It does get better

Im glad someone admits thats its not just me. I was starting to question whether my character was just pathetic. Ok, i will explore south grotsch.

By the way, as was mentioned how many creations are guardians supposed to have as support? The only reason im using vlish is because they lessen the damage you take and chance to get hit. Someone on here said that that helps on torment or something along those lines.

[nikki.]

They're "supposed" to have as many creations as you want. If you're having trouble with just one creation, then make a couple of more to see if that helps; as a guardian you won't be casting huge amounts of spells anyway, so it's not like you need to keep resevoirs of essence spare.

[Nim]

Wingbolts are miles ahead of any other creation you can make at this point of the game. Shaper Camp Gamma has a shaper that teaches them.

 

And I disagree that the enemies in the Fens are super hard. You are playing on normal (as do I most of the time) and the only tough thing there should be the respawning. So yeah your char may just be not that good. Maybe put up a pic of your stats ?

[Death Knight]

Strength-4

 

Dex-11

 

Intelligence 5

 

Endurance-4

 

Melee-9

 

Parry-6

 

Quick action 10

 

Luck-11

 

I put no points in shaping as guardians arent shapers (Gfaqs) and strength was ignored so i can rely on evasion much more. I can hit almost anything out there, but have major problems when i get hit. The plus side to this is that my acid and poison resistance are both almost max, so those attacks dont hurt my char that much. I need some other way to render my char unhittable and dex is not it.

 

I think i might need to put points into blessing magic and maybe pick up another creation to help my vlish. What would be a good creation?

[Death Knight]

Sorry for the double post-

 

Im going to start over although i dont know what to put for stats. If anyone has any advice for stats for a melee guardian and a good creation that i can take from beginning to end that WILL survive, that'd be cool. I need something that will do damage, and vlish dont do that. Any tips on creations that are decent?

[Nim]

Play a melee servile. At least as good as the guardian at melee, add cheap magic skills and you can still have creations. Get a wingbolt once you enter the fens. Forget that Dex/Luck build of yours. More strength & endurance.

[SamSniped]

I've always played well as a Warrior. Did you try hiring the guys in the Rebel camp to help you? That and running like hell solve your problems in Arizaph if I recall correctly.

[Micawber]

Not sure how viable dodge strategy is really. If you rely on dodge with so little health, there's no backup, so it's quite risky.

 

When I played a Warrior, I pumped strength, melee & endurance. Your attacks are lethal, but you have loads of health to survive the swarms. I also ignored creations; better leave the shaping to the chars with more essence, personally I think those skill points are better spent on blessing magic (just the first few spells). There are lots of recruitable NPCs in this game, so playing a singleton doesn't necessarily mean you're on your own.

[Hume]

Though it is possible to keep your beginning creations to the end on normal difficulty, it is never worth it.

 

Once you get wingbolts, you will not need any lessor creations. Wingbolts rocks in GF4, particularly on Macs, where drakons and ur-drakons does physical damage

[Death Knight]

Ive remade my char, and i am back at the same debacle that i was before. Ive put all my points into strength, melee, quick action and endurance and its still ridiculously hard even with creations on normal. Im at the fens closest to southern groshc and there seems to be a problem with the game.

 

A shaper named cantor, i tried saving 5 times so the zone will let me go north. The problem is cantor is terrible at fighting and dies in the first 4 rounds. His creations dont help in the fighting and he just runs into enemy lines like a fool and gets killed. Im supposed to help this guy but his creations just sit there and do nothing. Eventually after he dies, they start fighting. What is the deal with this?

[Randomizer]

Creations don't fight on the first round and they have to have an opponent within a certain distance.

 

I find that my character has to act as the meat shield to protect these types of characters.

[Nim]

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

A shaper named cantor, i tried saving 5 times so the zone will let me go north.

 

Saving Cantor has nothing to do with being able to enter South Grosch. There is nothing stopping you from entering Grosch.

[Death Knight]

Ive gotten underneath and am at the grotchs pits. The problem however is that there is a shaped creator that cannot be killed as he releases energy of 200 damage making him unkillable after 5 rounds-the damage goes up. I cannot get past the mines as i dont have 25 mechanics. What am i supposed to do? Now that im here im either finishing this part, or im done with this game. If one more thing backtracks i am finished with this.

[Randomizer]

Watch the messages and pay attention to the cycle. There is a point where the shaped creation is vulnerable and not giving off a massive area effect damage. This is the only time to do damage. The rest of the time is spent outside the area effect.

 

If you are really having too much trouble than see about recruiting different helpers that can do damage or the ones that can increase your mechanics to get past some mines.

 

Last resort you can run past this area and explore to the south. You will need to return later to finish this but you might get another level.

[Death Knight]

Well im currently taking a break from the city. Im looking for where the rod is that that nutcase shaper carries.

 

One of the things ive noticed randomizer and i dont know why i noticed now; is that creations literally are 5 times better tanks than the main character that you control. This isnt because of parry being weak, but more less because their much higher health. Im not sure whether jeff intended that, but its actually much different than his other games.

 

Take my kyshakk for example. He starts out at 600 health and by now is at 650. I dont know if the player character can get that high health, but right now i barely have half that. Im sure there are creations with even higher health pools but thats beside the point.

 

What this might mean is that you can either go 2 routes as a melee fighter guardian/warrior. The 1st is a moderate amount of strength, quick action and endurance, with more emphasis on parry. And the 2nd is the character i am playing right now which is high strength, quick action and endurance with at least 10-12 parry.

 

Those seem to be the only routes that a guardian can choose to make their char unique. And unless im missing something, they still cant take as much punishment as creations.

[Nim]

If your Kyshakk is 5 times a better tank than your (guardian) main char then your main char sucks. Badly.

 

HPs aren't everything. Armor and resistances make a big difference so having less HP than your Kyshakk doesn't mean you have to be a worse tank.

 

Would you mind uploading a save ? I think you need to have some people here take a real look at it if you want more help.

 

Because I can't for the life of me figure out how you struggle so much. I played a singleton servile last week till Quessa-Uss on tricky and it was trivial. Yeah I know the game pretty good but still.

 

Edit: Actually let's cut to the chase. As I see it there are three possible reasons why you have so much trouble.

 

1) Your char is fine but you suck at playing him.

2) Your char sucks.

3) The lack of magic does make that big of a difference in G4 as a guardian.

 

So go get us a save and let us help you. Because reading one frustrated post after another is no fun. And sorry for being a party pooper but someone had to do it.

 

[Death Knight]

I think its mainly 1-that i just sometimes charge in too far and get crossed against two forces of enemies. 2-Im so used to the avernum series of games where my rogue would charge in and take someone out, getting backed up by my tank. 3-Im not used to the fact that geneforge allows you to move anywhere without getting slowed like in avernum and avadon.

 

And finally the biggest reason that i cant stand my char is that there's absolutely no reason to play a guardian in g4. The shocktrooper has everything better and probably should have been my chosen class. I figured that guardians would be fun to play with shaping skills mixed with fighting. The problem with that as everyone has said, is that shaping skills from guardian arent useful as guardians dont have high essence and more importantly that combat skills are highly inferior to shaping or magic, or well..anything in game.

 

Most of my problems come from charging in too deep and not picking the right enemy. Im getting better but like i said, the problem is not that my guardian cant tank, but that 250 health is much less than my creations 650. Creations are without a doubt more hardy than any character.

 

Either way, in 2 levels i might be able to get another creation which might help my char. I still say though that creations get a much bigger health pool. Maybe its just me.

[Nim]

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

I think its mainly 1-that i just sometimes charge in too far and get crossed against two forces of enemies.

So either take it slower or get some crowd control aka mental magic.

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3-Im not used to the fact that geneforge allows you to move anywhere without getting slowed like in avernum and avadon.

On the other hand this does allow you to get out of situations where you would be doomed to stand and fight in avernum.

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And finally the biggest reason that i cant stand my char is that there's absolutely no reason to play a guardian in g4.

Yes.

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The shocktrooper has everything better and probably should have been my chosen class. I figured that guardians would be fun to play with shaping skills mixed with fighting. The problem with that as everyone has said, is that shaping skills from guardian arent useful as guardians dont have high essence and more importantly that combat skills are highly inferior to shaping or magic, or well..anything in game.

And no. The thing is that shaping skills aren't that important at all in G4, please read this thread. And the idea that combat skills are highly inferior to magic and shaping is really wrong. At least for G4, if you were talking about G5 I could agree.

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Most of my problems come from charging in too deep and not picking the right enemy. Im getting better but like i said, the problem is not that my guardian cant tank, but that 250 health is much less than my creations 650. Creations are without a doubt more hardy than any character.

Either way, in 2 levels i might be able to get another creation which might help my char. I still say though that creations get a much bigger health pool. Maybe its just me.

Ok, I'm outta here.

[Death Knight]

Very informative and thankyou Im going to stick with my previous idea and get enough intelligence to get another creation. I think that with power in numbers and the concept that thread you showed about shaping skills, i can handle the situations much better. Thanks.

[Death Knight]

Nim, youve been very helpful with my understanding of this game's mechanics. It seems that i would say that now i would put strength as the most important survivability stat for ANY character as armor provides resistance and helps even fragile characters like shapers. Endurance helps alot too but parry is probably the least reliable.

 

Ive been working on my guardian's strength and am not sure whether to stop at 8 or 9 strength or to keep going for more armor. I seem to notice that physical attacks dont do much as parry can stop them, its just the fire, cold, and energy attacks that drain my character. Would raising my strength a little more help with those attacks from higher armor, or should i just focus on endurance.

 

Im sorry for asking, im just am slowly getting to understand the game mechanics and what makes it work. Any info would be great.

[Nim]

I think 8/9 won't be quite enough if you want to wear the best armor which you should. 10-11 should be though. You can always wiggle a bit with the girdle of might or the guardian claymore which both give +2 Str (though you might not want/be able to kill the holder of the claymore). Or build the talisman of might, you could make one once you make it to the fens if you forego Jareds quest.

 

And don't be sorry for asking here, that's what the forums are for.

[Death Knight]

Thanks for that nim. I think this was always the reason why these games used to give me so much trouble. I was so stubborn on negating strength when if i recall, a gamefaqs user used to say that it was almost more important than endurance, which i laughed at the time.

 

I think one of the problems with geneforge 4 that 5 and even 3 didnt have was that you dont get any really good defensive bonuses that you had previously in 3 and 5. Luck in g5 and g3 give up to 10 bonus armor for relatively no points. And to make matters worse, the armor bonus to armor didnt register in g4 for blessing stones while it worked for g5 and i think even for g3 too.

 

With each blessing stone you place in armor you can get up to 25% bonus armor in g3 and g5. That could save you a lot of points on strength.

[Nim]

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

Thanks for that nim. I think this was always the reason why these games used to give me so much trouble. I was so stubborn on negating strength when if i recall, a gamefaqs user used to say that it was almost more important than endurance, which i laughed at the time.

I think your problem is more that you are (too) defensive minded. See that dodge build you tried followed by a parry build. I would never even think about trying those in G4. Simply because from my play experience killing stuff faster -> being able to defend more.

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I think one of the problems with geneforge 4 that 5 and even 3 didnt have was that you dont get any really good defensive bonuses that you had previously in 3 and 5. Luck in g5 and g3 give up to 10 bonus armor for relatively no points. And to make matters worse, the armor bonus to armor didnt register in g4 for blessing stones while it worked for g5 and i think even for g3 too.

I'm really certain that putting points into luck in any GF is a waste of skill points.

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With each blessing stone you place in armor you can get up to 25% bonus armor in g3 and g5. That could save you a lot of points on strength.

Save you strength ? Err, right. I think there is a misconception there.

Not that you'd want to use blessing stones in armor when you have golden crystals and steel spines.

[MMXPERT-seraph of thermodynamics]

You need better strength to wear better armor

[Micawber]

The Geneforge Saga has a steeper learning curve than the other games, but once you become familiar with the way to build a successful character, it is extremely good fun to play.

 

I really don't agree there is ANY skill that is important to all character classes. Depending on the class you pick, you can play a completely different game emphasizing Melee, Magic or Shaping. Specialization is important, if you spread your skillpoints around you get a very weak character. Whereas, if you concentrate your skillpoints, you become lethal, examples are an agent with 20+ in spellcraft, a guardian with 20+ in strength or a shaper with 20+ in intelligence. (Some of this may come from items.)

 

A Shaper (Lifecrafter) should emphasize intelligence, and buy some healing craft and shaping skills. Don't invest in offensive magic, a Shaper doesn't need fancy spells when they can have a wingbolt army . Go for maximum party size (more creations the better) and upgrade creation types when you get access to a new creation that has a higher starting level. Keep all the healing-boosting items and items that boost your creations (sharing belt, etc).

 

An Agent (Infiltrator) should emphasize spellcraft and buy plenty of intelligence. You need to be good at all spells (hence spellcraft) and especially mental magic, strong daze often keeps you alive. Don't rush into a fight, pick off enemies from a distance. Keep all the AP-boosting and spellcraft-boosting items.

 

The Guardian (Warrior) wants lots of strength and endurance and of course combat skills (especially quick action). Some creations are a help at low levels, but by the mid-game it's too much hassle keeping them alive, you are better off using hit and run tactics. Don't buy magic beyond the very basic blessing/healing spells. Keep any item that boosts AP or strength or melee, keep all pods, rods and spores.