Jump to content

Forced Tutorial


Recommended Posts

Is there any way to bypass the tutorial in the beginning of any of Jeff's games? 'Tis a minor inconvenience, but it does prevent long time Spiderweb fans from jumping right into it.

 

My apologies if this has been raised before. The forum search engine doesn't always pull up what I'm after.

Link to post
Share on other sites

How is the forced tutorial a problem? Games have to start somewhere, and the only real tutorial element is the message boxes that pop up and tell you how things work and what to do. It's not hard to just close them without reading.

 

—Alorael, who is pretty sure retro would be true sink or swim. But fortunately, Jeff's not deliberately being retro. He's just charmingly antiquated.

Link to post
Share on other sites

An in-game tutorial is anything but retro. Older games took the sink or swim approach, like Alorael said. The other approach was shipping games with instruction manuals. It got pretty extreme at times. Star Wars: Rebellion came with a instruction booklet that was almost two hundred pages long (and had an in-game 'briefing' besides).

 

(Star Wars: Rebellion is the only game on my shelf that actually needed those ludicrously huge boxes they used to ship games in.)

 

EDIT: How many games nowadays require players to "press F1 for help" instead of trying to teach everything in-game? There's been a definite shift in game design philosophy.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally Posted By: Alorael
How is the forced tutorial a problem?

It's immersion breaking and when it's the 200th time you've started a SW game, it's just annoying.

Plus, Dikiyoba just doesn't like to be told what to do. Make a creation to continue. No! Dikiyoba isn't ready to make one yet. You should use a spell now. No way, that's a waste of spell energy. It'll die fast enough when Dikiyoba runs up and punches it in the face with a dagger.
Link to post
Share on other sites

I do kinda wish there were an option to disable the tutorial windows, at least on difficulties above Normal. If you're choosing to play on Hard or Torment, you probably get how RPGs work already.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please touch where Zelda had a tutorial. Please touch where Nethack had a tutorial.

 

I havent been around long, but I remember that when there was a tutorial, you could easily get out of it by buttonmashing enough. Now you have to, ugh, do the tutorial.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I started out on Ultima I, II, and III, Might and Magic I and II, And Wizardy I and II and all of them didn't have tutorials. They had instruction books and if your copy didn't have them then you got to figure out the game by trial and error.

 

In the case of Might and Magic I they deliberately left out information that you had to discover on your own like secret doors. I found the first one with a typo while grinding around a floor.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, I wonder how much of "no in-game instructions" was poor game design, and how much was proto-DRM. I know of some games where it was impossible to proceed without secrets printed in the manual. Maybe designers didn't want any in-game help because they thought it would make it even more tempting to copy that floppy.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally Posted By: Soul of Wit
I think this is an exercise in semantics. I'm using retro to define a more recent vintage of games. Now, classic games--those had no tutorial.


I think we're just using random words to describe things at this point.

In my humble opinion, the best kind of tutorial is the kind that you never identify as a Tutorial. Sufficiently integrated into gameplay/narrative where the experience isn't disrupted significantly.
Link to post
Share on other sites

The forced tutorial is bad and so is the every ten or so moves auto save which pops up a message on screen.

I wanted to immerse myself in these games and the constant pop ups and tutorial info is making it very difficult.

each time something new occurs I get a pop up. I had to get myself killed so I would not see that message again.

 

Is there any way at all to hack into the game and at least find the config for the pop up messages or on screen window messages?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think all it would take to make Jeff's tutorials perfect is an opt out option on the very first dialogue box. Surely that's not too hard to program.

 

... Have you always been a Calvin and Hobbes reference and I just haven't seen you, or did you change PDNs?

Link to post
Share on other sites

See, now emulating Quidditch has a serious built-in limitation in that we don't possess any sort of antigravity tech. With how much of the game depends on using all three dimensions, I can't imagine how this would look in practice. Like ultimate frisbee and dodgeball, but with brooms?

Link to post
Share on other sites

My experience is pretty much confined to watching the "snitch" (a human being dressed up as such) blast past me on an obscure corner of campus with a seeker (a running person with a broomstick) on his heels. I cannot begin to imagine what the core of the game looks like.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally Posted By: Actaeon
My experience is pretty much confined to watching the "snitch" (a human being dressed up as such) blast past me on an obscure corner of campus with a seeker (a running person with a broomstick) on his heels.


This is actually the part I had the hardest part envisioning, in a way that wasn't stupid or broken from a balance perspective. The rest of it really boils down to dodgeball mixed with basketball/ultimate frisbee.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Wait, why would anyone trying to implement Quidditch include the Snitch? As far as I can tell, the Snitch is designed to be the worst possible game mechanic ever. Yes, it's there in the books to make Harry be the athletic hero, because being a normal hero isn't enough and high school athletics is all that matters. Are they so focused on perfectly simulating the books that include the aspect that negates the entire experience?

 

This shouldn't bother me as much as it does, but there's something about the Harry Potter universe that makes me foam at the mouth.

 

(Why not just have everyone on your team be a Seeker? GAH!)

Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally Posted By: Dintiradan
As far as I can tell, the Snitch is designed to be the worst possible game mechanic ever.


Indeed. JKR seemed to realize this in later books, and put in some attempts at making the rest of the team more than course hazards, by having the tournament decided by cumulative scores rather than game outcome. Still there was only a single game in the series that wasn't won by the seeker (at the beginning of book four).
Link to post
Share on other sites

There are various ways to address the problem, but none that I've seen fix the basic problem that there's a game ending condition that's substantially random, unrelated to the rest of the game, and optional. Making the snitch worth less means that you're less likely to suddenly win while you've spent the whole game losing, but more likely that your seeker may just sit around doing nothing until the scores are close enough to make catching the snitch a win, not a loss.

 

—Alorael, who found Harry's quidditch stardom and the game itself equally irritating.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally Posted By: Tracer Bullet
redesign: Snitch is worth twenty points, plus an additional ten every seven minutes.


That's interesting. It would still be two completely separate games that happen to affect the same score, but at least the significance of the two games would be kind of balanced.
Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't get why the book-version of quidditch has to make sense, though. It's pretty soft fantasy: wizards are almost completely ignorant of any technology in the muggle world, so who says that their games have to make any sense? As far as RL (Physics EM makes it hard to type this without groaning) quidditch is concerned, though, I'm interested to try out a game or two. It may not make all that much sense, but it could be fun nonetheless.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally Posted By: Pedipalps of our fathers
Alorael, who found Harry's quidditch stardom and the game itself equally irritating.


The game wouldn't be so irritating if you took out the Seeker, but then how would you make Harry stand out?

From an entirely negative view of Quidditch, I guess that's a two-birds-one-stone situation, but myself I kind of like the concept of Bludgers. Just cut everything else out and make it into a game of Brockian Ultra-Cricket. cool
Link to post
Share on other sites

Harry Potter is soft fantasy, and the lax world-building bothers me some. But Quidditch (apparently capitalized) isn't played for laughs but is too ridiculous and poorly-designed a game to be taken seriously. It would work just fine in Discworld, but as a way to show a protagonist's prowess it's a failure.

 

—Alorael, who would also be perfectly happy if the game explicitly revolved around seekers and the snitch. An aerial brawl with people hunting a tiny golden ball and more people trying to harass or protect the hunters would be at least an internally consistent and entertainingly belligerent sport.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, it would work better if Harry weren't the star, or if he at least dwelled upon the absurdity of his sport a little bit more. It doesn't quite work to make him both ironically and unironically heroic.

 

—Alorael, who supposes Quidditch is at least no worse than curling. But does anyone really take curling as seriously as those wizard take their Quidditch?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally Posted By: Iconoplasia
—Alorael, who supposes Quidditch is at least no worse than curling. But does anyone really take curling as seriously as those wizard take their Quidditch?


Only when we're winning gold medals in it.

(Wow, that was ten years ago... I would guess that even Britain doesn't care about it that much anymore. :p)
Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote:
—Alorael, who supposes Quidditch is at least no worse than curling. But does anyone really take curling as seriously as those wizard take their Quidditch?
I don't take any sport seriously, but curling is one of my favourites.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Even the role of seeker itself should be seen as random and arbitrary. Do you happen to be looking in the right direction while your opposition isn't? There's a skill to searching for small objects, but it's not really an athletic skill in any normal sense of the word.

 

—Alorael, who has another proposal: Quidditch is a ridiculous sport because no one cares about the sport. It's actually just an excuse for hooliganism and a chance to watch and hope for the equivalent of bench-clearing brawls with the added excitement of fatal falls from great heights.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...