Diplomacy

[Dintiradan]

So, is anyone interested in trying this again?

 

I'd love to play Diplomacy, and I have a bit more time now than I have for the past month or so. I don't have a tonne of time, though, that backroom dealing always takes way more time than actually planning your moves. So, in the interest of faster games that I hope will actually finish, I've created a gunboat game. Anonymous players, no in-game messaging.

 

Want to play? DON'T post in this thread, just join the game. The whole idea is that you don't know who else is playing (well, you know I'll be playing, but that's it). A few considerations:

- Please, only join if you're reasonably sure you'll be able to play this game until the end.

- Please, whenever possible, mark yourself as 'ready' after you've submitted your moves. This will move the game forward faster (I kept the default 1 day limit on moves, though). Deciding on moves will be faster in this game since there's no negotiation.

- Please, don't try to contact the other players. There's no in-game messaging, but of course a cheater could turn to AIM or IRC or whatever. This will ruin the experience for everyone, so please refrain.

- Please, once again, don't identify yourself as a player of this game. In fact, I'd rather people not identify themselves as non-players. I hope the mystery of not knowing your opponents will add to things (and if you disagree, feel free to make a typical game yourself).

 

Good luck everyone. I hope it doesn't take twelve and a half years.

 

EDIT: Whoops. Password is 'gunboat'.

 

EDIT: Aaand the game is full. Feel free to make your own game if you missed out.

[Over Nine Thousand!]

So, if asked, should we go with the usual "I cannot confirm or deny..."?

[Dintiradan]

Sure. And then add "You are a horrible, horrible person for asking and trying to cheat."

[Actaeon]

Much though I appreciate you bringing back the tread, Dinti, I'm deeply concerned that a Diplomacy game where you can't nag the late submitters is no Diplomacy game at all.

[Sarachim]

I've started a new game, too! This one allows players to message (and nag) each other freely.

 

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=88713

 

EDIT: Almost forgot, the password is geneforge.

[Nioca]

I think I'll pass. I've noticed a trend where the games never actually finish, and it's getting bothersome. More specifically, spidweb3 is probably going to end in cancellation because France appears to have ragequit, which means England and Germany are going to get free territories.

[Actaeon]

Ragequitting is a common side effect, yes. I think you're overestimating Germany's position, though. The only question is whether Turkey can get enough momentum to beat England to the punch.

[Dintiradan]

I've signed up for Spidweb4, but like Nioca, I'm worried about people dropping out. I've never been able to play a game of Diplomacy until its natural conclusion. I was hoping people would stay interested in the gunboat game longer, because of the lesser investment and the quicker turns, but I guess I wasn't counting on the frustrating experience to counter all that. Still, is it too much to ask that all players keep submitting moves, even if they're behind? "Do not go gently" and all that?

 

I'd love to comment more, but I should probably wait until the game is won or drawn.

[VCH]

I would prefer France to just quit entirely, if that's possible, and leave the territories to whoever. It would at least mean speedy turns. I don't mind losing.

 

BTW: Gunboat is a fun version of this game.

[Actaeon]

The interface certainly needs the ability to enter civil disorder voluntarily without holding things up. It would probably increase the number of ragequits, but make them more tolerable.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: VCH

I would prefer France to just quit entirely, if that's possible, and leave the territories to whoever. It would at least mean speedy turns. I don't mind losing.

I don't think you can. The good news is, if a player misses two turns in a row, the game automatically resigns them. So at precisely 12:46 AM tonight (eastern), it'll advance to the next turn and we'll be down to 6.

Quote:

BTW: Gunboat is a fun version of this game.

Agreed. It's strategy, plain and simple.

[VCH]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Agreed. It's strategy, plain and simple.

Yes, exactly what I was thinking. It's a perfect game to to play by correspondence.

[Actaeon]

My personal preference is Global Only. It gives you a chance to heckle and generally socialize, but eliminates the time and talking for the most part. It's particularly fun in person (although I always enjoyed sneaking away to secluded corners of the house to discuss strategy).

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Actaeon

(although I always enjoyed sneaking away to secluded corners of the house to discuss strategy).

the potential for sponage that this creates is nice for the others too, of course

[Nioca]

*looks at the last phase's retreats in Spidweb3*

 

Wow. Okay, either Russia had an incredible stroke of brilliance, or is insanely lucky. Either way, nice move.

 

('Course, the question will be, can Russia turn it to their advantage? That might be a lot trickier.)

 

Adding more to this post:

Originally Posted By: A player's profile

Available points: 80 D

Points in play: 10 D

Total points: 100 D

No worries, webDiplomacy. Basic addition is an extremely difficult skill to master.

 

Anyway, good luck to the players of game 4. I shall be rooting for Turkey, whom I hope gobbles up the competition.

 

[Dintiradan]

Spidweb3 has been utterly hilarious for the last few turns. I keep on hearing Yakety Sax whenever I look at it.

[Callie]

I've seen player profiles with negative points in play. So I have no clue how it keeps track of points.

 

And yeah, Spidweb 3 looks like a game of hot potato.

 

Edit: Although, I do know that if a player has points staked in an anonymous game, those points do not display in his or her profile. That would explain the profile you showed above.

[Actaeon]

Dear Gunboaters: One of the players has requested I fill in for them while they're out of town. I'd previously been playing Germany, but at this point I don't think there's enough of me left for this to pose much conflict of interest. If you disagree, you're welcome to pause the game until he gets back.

[Actaeon]

While the current games are paused, is anyone interested in a live gunboat (or global only gunboat) game at some point?

 

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Actaeon

Dear Gunboaters: One of the players has requested I fill in for them while they're out of town. I'd previously been playing Germany, but at this point I don't think there's enough of me left for this to pose much conflict of interest. If you disagree, you're welcome to pause the game until he gets back.

Let us know when the player comes back so we can unpause the game.

[VCH]

player is back

[BJ Back From the Beyond]

Just so everyone knows, Spidweb 4 has been unpaused. If you're in that game and haven't given orders since the pause, please do so soon.

[Callie]

Spidweb 3 has ended. Congrats to Nioca!

 

I thoroughly enjoyed screwing with Turkey.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Excalibur

Spidweb 3 has ended. Congrats to Nioca!

I thoroughly enjoyed screwing with Turkey.

I wish I could say it was all skill, but I think a major part of my victory was due to France quitting. It enabled me to focus my attention strictly on the German coast, rather than duking it out with two powers at once.

Still, I think I had a few clever moments, so yay me. Also, props to Turkey, who did an excellent job as well. I guess we'll be ruling Europe together.

Finally, I think I need to lay off Fleet units a bit. I suspect sea dominance is becoming something of a signature move for me. That, and I don't think Gunboat Diplomacy was supposed to be that literal.

[BJ Back From the Beyond]

Congrats Nioca. In other news:

 

I lived!!!

 

Seriously though, after getting knocked down to one fleet, I'm surprised I actually survived that game, though I found that screwing with the larger powers when you have one fleet is not only possible, it's fun.

[Dintiradan]

Thought process for the game:

 

1901: Austria again? I've never played anything but! Well, Southern Hedgehog is probably a good idea.

1902: Okay, Turkey supported me last turn. Maybe we move against Russia? Boy, I sure hope Italy didn't misinterpret my bounces as hostile. I'll just hold for now.

1903: Okay, defending myself two fronts. I can do this. But Turkey is gonna take all the Balkans at this rate. I can't afford to piss Turkey off, and have a three front war. How can I send an order asking Turkey to move north instead...

1904: GERMANY. Y U MOVE INTO TYROLIA?

1905: Okay, back to what I started with. Hoo boy. Gotta make sure I keep it.

1906: Screw it, I'm just gonna try slow England down.

 

And that's how I fought against every other power but France. I'd love to hear what went on in other people's minds.

[adc.]

I've signed up guys, all I need to know is... Where do I start?

-------

-???, nightwatcher

[BJ Back From the Beyond]

Italy's thought process:

 

1901: Italy. Ho boy, not where I want to be on my first game... Seriously Austria? You're attacking me already? Hope France decides to ignore me so I can focus on Austria.

1902: Okay, France is ignoring me. Good. Now, if I can just get into Greece... bounced with Turkey. I need to get my army out of Tunis and into some place it can do good. If I move into Albania, I can attack Trieste from three sides.

1903: Ready to smash my way into Trieste, and very relieved that Turkey messed up his order to move into Greece. Getting a little worried for France, but there's not anything I can do to help him.

1904: Haven't been able to get into Trieste, and now in a position where I'm going to lose ground to Turkey. Also, it looks like I'm about to get flanked by Germany and England. Not much I can do about it if they decide to attack.

1905: Okay, Germany and England are fighting over France. That makes me very relieved. Still trying to take Trieste and keep the Ionian Sea at the same time. It's not working.

1906: After a brilliant move that landed me Greece, I finally have 5 supply centers, the most I had the entire game. I need to make the most of them, because I don't expect to keep Greece. I finally manage to take Trieste, but by that time the damage is already done. Turkey is too powerful for me to take on for much longer, and England is bearing down on my western border. Also, Germany is attacking me as well. Things look very bleak.

1907: I'm screwed. I don't have the power to take my lost supply centers back, and I've got three powers attacking me. It's time to pull back and make myself a difficult target. My only priority now is survival.

1908: I now have a single fleet in Naples. There's not a whole lot I can do with that, but seeing as England is really close to winning I decide to do everything I can to make their life miserable (which isn't a whole lot, admittedly).

1909: My only priority at this point is to screw with England. Survival is no longer expected.

[Randomizer]

You know it's possible for England to lose the game on supply centers, but set up a defense that prevents it from losing any more territory. It can't advance or be moved back setting up a stalemate.

[Nioca]

Well, I wasn't keeping a journal of my thoughts, but I'll try to recount what I was thinking which each move.

 

1901: England? Eesh, this could be tricky without allies. I'm not open to attack, but if I don't move fast, I could get completely locked out.

1902: Excuse me, this is the English Channel. And... hmm, looks like Russia's leaving St. Petersburg open again. I'll take it!

1903: France isn't proving to bothersome, but Germany's gonna be a tough opponent. Better get my ducks in a row. Seems like Germany really wants Norway. Well, you know what they say... be careful what you wish for. }:-D

1904: OI! I ALREADY TOLD YOU IT'S THE ENGLISH CHANNEL! *cough* In other news, happy Russia isn't taking advantage of the discord on my eastern flank. Looks like Germany's really gearing up for war.

1905: Way to ragequit, France. Ah well, it's not time to take it yet. I'm in prime position to launch my assault on Germany. I think I'll get fleets in position to blockade Italy and Turkey, too. I doubt I'm getting Tunis, but at least I can keep them from getting in my business.

1906: Stick a fork in Germany, 'cause he's done. Send some fleets down south to support, and let's start getting some armies to finish Germany once and for all. I doubt Turkey will be much of an issue, since they're fighting on two fronts right now. Let's also get a couple armies ready to move into France to take some territories... and I just might have an idea about how to take Munich in a surprise assault...

1907: Time for a final blitz. If I line my ships up and get control of the French supply centers, I'll be able to use those armies (and the one at St. Petersburg) to launch a surprise attack the next year that Germany and Turkey won't see coming. With the addition of Tunis, this whole thing will be wrapped up by 1908. Poor Germany won't know what hit him... wait, is Turkey bum-rushing me?!

1908: Game over. Southern fleets, hold tight. Northern fleets, convoy armies. Doesn't matter that Turkey's got Munich now, all I have to do is- *area-wide black-out ensues*

1909: ...Dammit. Alright, damage control, this could have been much worse. Southern fleets, let's move to Italy. It's a contingency, but we might need those territories. Northern forces, let's make like a Boa Constrictor and tighten our grip on German territories. Turkey's slight against Berlin is not going to go unpunished. Get my forces rallied and completely surrounding German and Turkish forces, and... *squash*

 

And that's that.

[Nioca]

*doublepost*

 

Started my own game: spidweb anonymous. Standard Diplomacy, anonymous players.

 

Password: bladesofavernum

 

EDIT: And the game is full. Good luck, and may the best country win!

[Actaeon]

You guys have been THINKING about your moves? That explains a lot about my success rate.

[adc.]

How do I play?

----------

-???, Nightwatcher

[VCH]

My thoughts: (I was Turkey)

 

This is a very fun game. I played once before in person, but that wasn't so fun. I had a tough time remembering how pieces moved and exactly what can and cannot be done. On many occasions I second guessed myself because I didn't know what was possible from the opposing forces, and all those different coloured lines afterwards didn't help much. I also realized that the game doesn't count supply centres until the end of a year. I spent way too much time planning the last round because I thought it wouldn't matter if England got Munich—I thought that would be supply centre 17.

 

But all around I enjoyed the game.

[VCH]

Sorry, but how does one join anonymously?

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: VCH

Sorry, but how does one join anonymously?

You just join. The only person who'll know you joined is you; everyone else shows up as anonymous.

It's more to help foster early-game communication; I imagine we'll be able to eventually tell who's who after a few messages get exchanged.

[VCH]

Oh, I thought that because my name showed up on my computer it showed up on everyones.

[Actaeon]

Nope. Although now everyone knows that you're participating. I think I will only join this one if it looks in danger of not filling up. It would be nice to be an onlooker for a change.

[Randomizer]

I see with computer placement of the moves you can't alter them as the other players moves are enacted as in table top Diplomacy, lie. That was a big advantage with a honest reputation since no one would verify my written moves.

[Actaeon]

Your group was far too trusting. When I play in person, we either switch moves to read them out, have a rotating person to read all the moves, or just bring our laptops and use a web interface.

[Dintiradan]

@Randomizer: You are a terrible, terrible person.

 

I started writing the above facetiously, but now that I think about it, why? Why sit down at a friendly game, only to break the rules? Were you playing for money or something?

 

Originally Posted By: Actaeon

When I play in person,

Jealous. The only time I played in person was during the course of a Grade 11 social class. One week per move, multiple people per country.

 

You can apparently play face-to-face games with jDip. Gets me thinking of how to implement Diplomacy better for a classroom setting. Project the map on the screen while people discuss moves, then turn the projector off while people enter them one at a time. (Though when moves are a week apart, taping the map to your door works well enough).

[Randomizer]

My group was just truly backstabbing and vicious. We could carry a grudge from a previous game over through a year of games. Since Civilization and Diplomacy were the only board games for 7 or more players we played them a lot when there wasn't a D&D game.

 

Some of my favorites were:

 

"Don't bother talking to me. I don't care if we are Russia and France, my goal is going to be to wipe you out if I have to come across the board to do it."

 

After getting backstabbed I withdrew from supply centers near the other player in the new alliance and threw myself against my old ally. This destabilized the new alliance as one side quickly grew.

[VCH]

Why break the rules? Because most people follow them and therefore there is great benefit in doing the opposite.

 

In my opinion, one of the funner things about board-games is just messing with people. I don't always play games to win, I play to create chaos among friends . . . and I must say it amuses me greatly. I mean, most games are pretty boring if played strictly by the book. I don't mean one needs to cheat, just do unconventional stuff to have an interesting game. I suppose I would call my playing style Chaotic Neutral.

 

For example, I once let a friend and enemy in Risk get all of Asia just because it never happens and I found the idea amusing. I kept telling my ally (North America) that we should just "wait and see what happens" and that "there would be time to do something about it". Turns out there wasn't anything we could do about it, lol.

[Actaeon]

"Breaking the rules" adds an additional element to the game that can be quite enjoyable. You'd have one hard and fast rule (all moves must be turned in by x time in x place) plus the game mechanics, and otherwise anything goes. Eavesdrop? Of course. Forge another player's moves? Naturally. Bribery? It's your money.

[Randomizer]

Lying about moves was a house rule since you had to challenge to see written orders. I think in one game we found that a player had stopped writing orders after the third turn and just made them up as he played to save himself "work" and give himself more time.

 

Since moves are done on table top games starting with Russia that player usually didn't write them down and just moved.

[Dintiradan]

Not playing to win: I can understand that. Some people would get ticked, though. Someone I know has a delicious quote he heard during a boardgame: "I would have won if you had done the right move." Most people expect the other players are trying to win.

 

(Although, if you find a game boring when you play it "the way it's supposed to be played", doesn't this tell you that you should try play a different, better designed game where playing to win is fun?)

 

It gets interesting with games like Diplomacy, though, because you're not necessarily trying to maximizing your chances of winning this game. Instead, you might be maximizing the chance of winning all games from here on in. So doing something suboptimal in the current game, like keeping a pact when backstabbing might slightly increase your chances, might be worth it in the long run.

 

So I don't care whatever you do inside the game. A grim trigger strategy like Randomizer's might be very effective. "If you backstab me, I'll blindly focus on you for the rest of the game and give my centres to your opponents." It works the way M.A.D. works.

 

But it's when this duplicity extends to outside the game that I get uncomfortable. There's the standard Diplomacy underhanded stuff, like trying to eavesdrop on a conversation on the other side of the room, or having multiple order sheets that you show to different countries before you hand one in. These are fine, so long as people know what to expect. But changing moves after you've seen some of the results? That's breaking one of the fundamental mechanics of the game.

 

As for bribery, ugh, you're basically giving the game to whomever has more money. So, whoever is winning in Real Life will win the game. (And even if everyone is on an equal footing financially, you'll still get stuff like one spouse saying to another: "trade with me or I'm withholding sex." I can't compete with that!)

 

As for forgery: would any of the players here shrug it off if I somehow got a hold of your WebDip password, locked you out of the account, and started playing for you?

 

tl;dr version: This is wrong. Backstabbers don't go to the Ninth Level of Gaming Hell, especially when backstabbing is part of the game. But unless you're playing Unhinged, cheating is never part of the game.

 

Originally Posted By: Reiner Knizia

When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Dintiradan

(And even if everyone is on an equal footing financially, you'll still get stuff like one spouse saying to another: "trade with me or I'm withholding sex." I can't compete with that!)

sounds like you're just not trying hard enough

[Callie]

Am I the only one unable to access the site?

[Dintiradan]

Nope, I'm getting an error message as well.

[Randomizer]

Same here. It was working fine last night about 12 hours ago.