Community History: Users and Subcultures

[Aoslare]

One component of the history that I'm working on is a list of active, visible, or otherwise notable spidwebbers in each given time period.

 

This idea was originally suggested to me by *i when I was bugging him for info on the BoE era. However, I struggled for several years with the problem of how to collect and present this data in a way that is actually meaningful. Limiting it to a few names per time period would not be very interesting; if I am more inclusive, I have problems deciding exactly how to delimit it AND I would end up with a big pile of names for each period. That means it would be a long list of big piles of many names; hard to digest and almost impossible to use for a broad perspective.

 

In the course of discussing the satellite boards this week, I finally came up with a way of cataloguing notable spidwebbers: the use of different subcultural categories. This came out of a conversation Tyranicus and I had about how much Shadow Vale revolved around a particular clique. If I break big names in 2003 up into a few categories of Despers and SW Mods, Polaris folk, Lyceum stalwarts, and miscellaneous users, then it becomes a lot easier to digest -- and much easier to watch evolve from one year to the next.

 

For this purpose I have broadened "clique" into "subculture." The Shadow Vale group, for example, might include some users who didn't actually post there often, and weren't in the core SV group, but nonetheless talked to those folk and made BoA scenarios and were a part of that piece of Spiderweb culture moreso than other pieces.

 

I'm looking for the community's help on this one, especially as regards the earlier time periods where it is harder for me to know which groupings of people make the most sense.

 

The subcultures I have enumerated so far include:

 

* BoE Community

* Outspoken Despers: TM, Alec, Djur, Scorpius, etc.

* Establishment-Friendly Despers: Drakey, Khoth, Thurilith, Saunders, etc.

* Polaris: Alorael, Aran, I have no idea who else

* Second-Wave Mods: Stareye, Zeviz, Kelandon, myself, etc.

* Shadow Vale / BoA Designers: Tyranicus, Ephesos, Salmon, Marlenny, etc.

* CRF / anti-elitists: Sylae, Nioca, Iffy, Jewels, ET, etc.

* No significant subculture: Archmage Alex, Drew, The Mystic, etc.

* Public enemies: Public Enemy, Shotts, Ed, etc.

 

A few notes:

* The purpose of this is NOT to categorize, label, or stereotype users. The purpose is to make it easier to overview what SW culture was like and who was a part of it during different eras.

* At this point, I am not looking at era AT ALL. Thus, second-wave mods list includes both Stareye (around long before the new wave of more interventionist modding) and myself (not a mod until it had already begun).

* Obviously, a lot of people could fit into multiple categories. For now I am just looking for a primary category; later it may make sense to feature, for example, Thurilith as a BoE person in one era, Desper 2 in another, and 2nd-Wave Mod today.

 

So, I am looking for help with two things. For now:

 

Subcultures. I have probably left out some entirely or organized others in ways that don't make sense. What do you think is missing, from any era? (For example, I have no doubt it makes sense to have more than one subculture from the Blades Community era.)

 

Once we have that a bit more straightened out, I'd also love help enumerating big lists for each subculture. But let's start with figuring out which subcultures it makes sense to use.

[Actaeon]

You might create a subgroup for AIMhack. I'm aware it's pretty par for the course these days, but I'm sure there are several members who have been somewhat defined by their campaigns (and, of course, there's Ephesos).

 

And, of course, there's the Richard White cult.

[Sudanna]

Yeah, Ephesos and the other successful GMs, along with consistent players, might deserve a subculture.

[Triumph]

Just brainstorming...

 

What about playtesters for Jeff? With their mysterious / specious comments / revelations about not-yet-released games (not really sure who all this might encompass, but I know they exist)?

 

Or what about the FAQ / item list / map-making / walkthrough-writing / stat analyzing segment of the population (people like Delicious Vlish, Synergy, and of course you, Slarty)?

 

What about custom graphic designers for BoE / BoA (as distinct from scenario designers)?

[Aoslare]

Aimhack might make sense for the current age. Richard White cultists: I was going to say maybe, but on reflection, almost all of the users involved do not have any other obvious classification. I think Dikiyoba and Alorael would be the only exceptions there. So definitely, yes.

 

I don't think Triumph's groups would really have enough people in them. Sure, you can probably list 10-12 people who made hardcore maps, faqs, item lists, or analyses over the last 10 years... but they mostly either do not overlap or are not really doing the same kind of thing anyway (the mapmakers). I think there needs to be some kind of actual social distinction, at at least one point in time, for the term "subculture" to make any sense here. Likewise, there have been surprisingly few playtesters here.

[Alorael at Large]

For Polaris, ADoS was a founding member, Logalot was a founder and hosted it before Aran, and Sir Motrax of Exile was pretty steadily a part of it from early on. And I'm kicking myself over not even being able to list most of the members anymore.

 

What is a second wave mod? The timing is all over on those: *i and Zeviz are very early, Kel and you came years later.

 

—Alorael, who thinks the RW cult is worth noting, if only for its very community-specific nature and very specific oddball trappings. Membership may be less important.

[Rowen]

With the RW is that game of his that was like gemcraft or something. Its been so long I haven't seen it I've forgotten. But that game did have a little following that stuck to that one form mostly.

 

Other members that I can remember are Sir David (I think that was the PND) and Roxey Crant (Way missspelt but both were on Polaris)

 

As for as community history goes, the Bandwagon thread about Alorael's post count that started his continuous name change was a notable mile point.

 

Another note is the use of Canned as a title for spammers, and how Banned was a visible title too till *i changed it.

 

Edit: Another note on Polaris was that Alorael had an ever growing negative post count number just like on SWF he has a growing one that can't reach the top level.

[Dintiradan]

Originally Posted By: Rowen

With the RW is that game of his that was like gemcraft or something. Its been so long I haven't seen it I've forgotten. But that game did have a little following that stuck to that one form mostly.

SubTerra. By the way, people I remember being connected to SubTerra are Radiant and The Stew Boy.

[Balladeer]

Rosycat, and Luz need to go somewhere... Not sure where they were the most prevalent. BoE/BoA creators most likely. Nikki should be in SV I think. How about a Lyceum group? Al needs a place though he could be a creator too.

 

How about a Legend category? Schrodinger, Imban, and Ischi (forgive me if I've spelled anything wrong...) Solberg from the Lyceum for public enemies.

 

Other notable people; mostly BoE/BoA creators though some Geneforge fans too... Bain-Ihrno, Drizzt, Frahhamn, Skyle, WKS, Olly, HYZ, Fiend, Caligula, E-Master, Brett Bixler, Shyguy, Milu, SM Adventurer, The Creator, Tarl Kudrick, Zaloopa... there's lots more but I don't know how many you want.

 

Don't forget the SW satelite Archive as a reference and many a BoE designer is listed in the pages of my website

 

Edit: Lazarus, Lord Grimm, TGM(The Great Mister), Smoo, Enraged Slith, Dintiridan, Dahak, Motrax, Brave Sir Robin.

 

The BoE/BoA people could be separated into those who mostly made scenarios and those who mostly made graphics. Luz, TGM, and Dahak are examples of mostly graphical artists though they may fit in better elsewhere. Idk, just throwing them out there.

 

Edit2: Ohh... there was a subculture over at... that one game... you know... stick figures... massive meat innuendos... Though I kinda feel like that was the SV crowd too.

 

[Harehunter]

That list takes me through the WayBack machine.

 

To that list I would like to add Falcata, Anthony Goreham, Caligula, Hope Parkin, Jake Wallace, Kenny Smith, Leon Lin, Mark Bradburn, Paul Henderson, Thralni, vzykov, Triest, and Zeviz.

 

I tried to not duplicate anyone you have already listed.

[Lilith]

Falcata and Luz were the same person.

[Harehunter]

Thank you. I learn something new everyday.

[nikki.]

Originally Posted By: Jewels in Black

Edit2: Ohh... there was a subculture over at... that one game... you know... stick figures... massive meat innuendos... Though I kinda feel like that was the SV crowd too.

KoL? I think to be fair, with the exception of Dikiyoba and Drew (anjd Andraste(?), who I think belong elsewhere, the rest of us were pretty much the SV crowd yes.

[Nescioquis]

Originally Posted By: Dintiradan

Originally Posted By: Rowen

With the RW is that game of his that was like gemcraft or something. Its been so long I haven't seen it I've forgotten. But that game did have a little following that stuck to that one form mostly.

SubTerra. By the way, people I remember being connected to SubTerra are Radiant and The Stew Boy.

SubTerra was by Crystal Shard (Pieter Simoons) and was unrelated to Richard White and the RW forum, as far as I know, though.

[Kelandon]

That's true. The only time anyone actually talked about RWG was to complain that Lost Souls was good but had terrible AI and no level editor or that Galactic Core sucked. SubTerra was different.

 

There was no Homeland: Stone of the Night discussion as such, only occasional screams of horror and torment.

[Alorael at Large]

And the very occasional claim that it wasn't all that bad.

 

—Alorael, who will point out that Pieter Simoons is Radiant, and was the mod for the SubTerra section when it existed.

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: Dintiradan

By the way, people I remember being connected to SubTerra are Radiant and The Stew Boy.

I was in there, too. Heck, one of the reasons I joined the Spiderweb boards was because they were hosting SubTerra at the time, and I was looking for a place to post my SubTerra levels.

[Aoslare]

Originally Posted By: The Last Meme

What is a second wave mod?

I meant to explain this and forgot. "Second-wave mod" isn't the best title for that subculture but I haven't found a better one. This is meant to capture the people who preferred the forums to be more orderly and family-friendly even at the cost of having interventionist mods. This includes people like Zeviz and Kelandon who got into spitting matches with the more ornery Despers over this sort of stuff in older days, as well as the majority of mods from the current era. It wouldn't be limited to mods, but this is sort of the second wave of mod attitudes, where the first wave was the earlier crew. I think the current mods make up a sort of accidental subculture: nobody _wants_ to be exclusive, but we happen to have a private forum, and most of us happen to have been around for a while, are older, etc. And I think there is a common thread there that links the current crop, however indirectly, to Zeviz and Stareye and company.

Hmm. But I was not interested in the "common thread" connection when I looked at Triumph's idea for faq/analysis-makers. Well, perhaps what needs to happen is to look at all potential subcultures, then review the list and see how it would make the most sense to organize people.

[The Ratt]

Maybe a group of people that have been around for a while, but only make occasional posts.

[Actaeon]

That's a pretty big demographic.

[Andraste]

Yep.

[Aoslare]

Actually, yeah, that's a terrific idea -- particular those users like you three who span many years but may go a year or more between posts on General.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Actaeon

You might create a subgroup for AIMhack. I'm aware it's pretty par for the course these days, but I'm sure there are several members who have been somewhat defined by their campaigns (and, of course, there's Ephesos).

Originally Posted By: Jewels

Edit2: Ohh... there was a subculture over at... that one game... you know... stick figures... massive meat innuendos... Though I kinda feel like that was the SV crowd too.

I think there is enough continuity from the SW clan on KoL through the Witch Hunt and Northern Isle forum-based games to the AIMhack campaigns that there should be a community-based games group, especially if people end up classified in multiple places. There are a few people who participated in only one thing, but most did two or more.

Dikiyoba.

[VCH]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Actually, yeah, that's a terrific idea -- particular those users like you three who span many years but may go a year or more between posts on General.

Awww, but I want a group too.

[Goldengirl]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

I think there is enough continuity from the SW clan on KoL through the Witch Hunt and Northern Isle forum-based games to the AIMhack campaigns that there should be a community-based games group, especially if people end up classified in multiple places. There are a few people who participated in only one thing, but most did two or more.

I affirm this idea. The games (not just AIMhack) were a definite moment in Spiderweb history with their own players. Northern Isle even brought back the Miscellaneous forum, after all, though nothing like the original, from what I've gathered. Moreover, there isn't perfect overlap, and there are varying degrees of participation. I was active in Kingdom of Loathing for a while, played all the Witch Hunts, but didn't play any of the Northern Isle games, as an example.

Originally Posted By: The Ratt

Maybe a group of people that have been around for a while, but only make occasional posts.

This would be a large group, and one hard to define, but definitely has some merit to it. Maybe even just doing a split based on people who post primarily on the game boards and don't venture to General often or at all. Then again, there's probably a heavy bias to list General posters.

[Aoslare]

I'm not sure about "SW games." KoL was very directly connected to the SV crowd to the point that I don't see any reason to distinguish it.

 

The second Witch Hunt especially was gigantic and included all sorts of people. I guess there was a more consistent crowd eventually, especially if you look at Northern Waters. That went on for almost a year so maybe that is worth counting as a subculture.

 

Looking at the Northern Waters rosters, I actually see very little overlap with Aimhack players. There are a few names I'm not sure about, but most of them did not Aimhack at all.

[Dintiradan]

Pst.

 

Slarty.

 

Tagging > Taxonomy.

[Actaeon]

I want a Linnean classification. It's the next logical step after family trees and elements. (Lurkensaflora actaensis?)

[Actaeon]

Two splits or three? The vast bulk of my pitiful post count comes from General, but there's also a class that's pretty evenly split.

 

Edit: Double posts are what happen when you get carried away with tabbed browsing and don't realize you're responding to two people in the same thread. Is there any way to combine 'em?

[Aoslare]

This isn't a taxonomy but it isn't tagging either. Tags would be great if I were making a spiderweb community mediawiki encyclopedia. I'm not that crazy. I just want to be able to organize long lists of people to make the lists more meaningful and easily digestible. Hence, categories.

[Aoslare]

Here's a list of what I have for subcultures. Any other suggestions about this? I'll make a new thread tomorrow and start the long work of generating lists of names for each subculture.

 

Mostly BoE Community Era

* OLD BOE GUARD

* THE ARENA

* LYCEUM

 

Mostly Old & Middle SW Eras

* OUTSPOKEN DESPERS

* ESTABLISHMENT-FRIENDLY DESPERS

* POLARIS

* ESTABLISHMENTARIANS

* RICHARD WHITE CULT

 

Mostly New SW Era

* SHADOW VALE / BOA

* CRF / ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT

* NORTHERN ISLES

* AIMHACK

 

All Eras

* ACTIVE MEMBERS-AT-LARGE

* QUIET LONG PRESENCES

* PUBLIC ENEMIES

 

All Eras -- Other Possibilities

* FAQSERS/MINMAXERS

* BLADES ARTISTS

[Callie]

I don't remember if *i called it Northern Waters initially, but all of the games played were titled Northern Isles.

[Kelandon]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

This is meant to capture the people who preferred the forums to be more orderly and family-friendly even at the cost of having interventionist mods. This includes people like Zeviz and Kelandon who got into spitting matches with the more ornery Despers over this sort of stuff in older days

Uh, I don't think that actually happened. I mean, with Zeviz kind of, but not with me. I was active on Desperance (though not terribly accepted by that clique) back in the day, and I was generally pro-Djur, etc.

I did generally work to make the boards more family friendly as a mod, and I did quietly advocate banning more or less everyone (not just Despers — everyone). But I did that through more discreet channels, not by arguing directly with, say, Alec.

[Balladeer]

I was thinking (a dangerous pastime, I know) that before the forum was so damaged by the server change, the Lyceum was home to many of the older BoE crowd. It was a very popular satellite that people would shell out money to help Al keep it ad free. I would say people like Alcitras, Brett Bixler, The Creator/Ash Lael, Drizzt, Rosycat, Shyguy, Skyle, Milu, Luz, VCH, TGM, and Zaloopa (among others, help me out here... you're relying on my memory?) are a good fit for that forum subculture.

 

I've been a regular on all of the main forums at one point or another and honestly, the Lyceum was my favorite of the bunch. That was where many of the BoE contests were hosted some with actual prizes for the winners. It was a BoE creativity engine. In retrospect, it may have been the only satellite that I didn't go to for the RPs.

 

Other subculture suggestions:

 

Fansite Webmasers - There are a number of people that I know only from the fact that they made a fansite that I added to my Comprehensive List of Spiderweb Links. Caligula, HYZ, Milla, Shinobi, Paul, Olly, Anthony, Hope, Leon. Many of these were either gone from the community when I arrived leaving only their websites or stayed for only a short enough time to put their small contribution to the community on the web.

 

Couple-hit Wonders - Come, make a good scenario or two, then fade into the ethers. Janet Cone, Yoshiyuki Haneda, Desert Pl@h, Akhronath.

 

Spam Specialist - Many people that were once mainly spammers could now be categorized by something else now but there are some that will always be branded with the stigma.

 

Jokers - Those who didn't take scenario making all that seriously. Smoo, Measle, BSR, Alec... or were just plain bad at it. lost_king, Vince Fizz.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Jewels in Black

Jokers - Those who didn't take scenario making all that seriously. Smoo, Measle, BSR, Alec... or were just plain bad at it. lost_king, Vince Fizz.

measle's semi-unreleased scenario The Nature of Evil was actually quite serious. unfortunately it was serious in the service of a half-assed argument for the privatio boni theory but oh well

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

measle's semi-unreleased scenario The Nature of Evil was actually quite serious. unfortunately it was serious in the service of a half-assed argument for the privatio boni theory but oh well

It...what? I'm not sure how one would make such an argument through a BoE scenario (or was it BoA?). Am now curious.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Othar Trygvassen: Gentleman

It...what? I'm not sure how one would make such an argument through a BoE scenario (or was it BoA?). Am now curious.

boe. it wasn't particularly subtle or well-thought-out. basically, the main "dungeon", an area that had been corrupted by evil, was a cave with blank white spaces in place of terrain and monsters: in place of trees you had blank tree-shaped No-Trees, you fought negative-space shadows of animals, and so on. it didn't so much make an argument as take it as a given and expect you to do the same.

the final version we ended up getting was a leaked beta that was never meant for public release though, so i won't be too harsh on him

[Rowen]

I started playing KoL due to it being talked about on the SWF. That lead me to KoLradio and now I listen to that all the time. It was SV members that got me into playing it, but it wasn't on the SV forums.

 

Edit: Oh and how would Aran/Polaran's Piper play into the history books?

[Ceiling Durkheim]

@Lilith: Huh. That actually sounds like a cool premise for a fantasy story (in a game world or otherwise). The notion of creatures of formed of some sort of non-being, a la the Heartless from Kingdom Hearts or the spectres from His Dark Materials, but taking the Platonic roots of the idea more seriously. As a philosophical argument, though, such a story doesn't seem nearly so promising.

[Dintiradan]

Now I want to make a BoA port of The Neverending Story

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Which was one of the examples (the Nothing) I was considering mentioning in the above post. Blame TV Tropes and my vague childhood memories. Some day I should re-watch those films.