another Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 At the time of writing I'm not finished with the game. So obviously, take this with a bit of salt. Avadon may be the first time in a gaming career that stretches back to the c64 days where I've played a character that begins unapologetically as a highly respected / feared enforcer for the worlds dominant imperialist superpower. It's really refreshing, and totally enjoyable. As an avid long time rpg player, its (very ironically) one of the first times I actually felt like I was playing a role, and I found myself picking dialog options that fit an imperialist enforcer (just to see what the response would be). The writing allows for that, and is superb. Although there are certainly times when a bit of editing could help shrink the wall of text that hits you in some dialog boxes. That said, the writing is a big part of the games strength, and is treated carefully and correctly. Even succeeding in avoiding black and white, good and evil, without hitting you in the head with the "you now face a moral dilemma" hammer (ala bioware). You're just an imperialist enforcer, doing his job, and sometimes you just gotta go collect the empires escaped political prisoners (they're not being tortured, just mind scanned!). This brings me to my big gripe. The 'atmospheric' level design. It's really bad. Like, wow, bad. Sometimes I just found myself wondering "why exactly is there a random 'battle/explosion' crater in the middle of this forest??", there must be a half million random pen & ink's everywhere, and those damn severed arms, whips, manacles, and pillows. All of these random, valueless, clutter objects everywhere. Too much of that. This mixed in with the fact that there are often occasionally useful items mixed in with other crap on the ground means you have to keep hitting "g" over and over. There are some other minor points that could also use some work, stuff that additional playtesting might help. For instance, there is a misson (no spoiler) where you're told not to tell anyone about why you're there. Low profile and all. There's some great dialog where a character wants to know why you're there, and you refuse. Thumbs up, loved it, again -- like role playing. Unfortunately in order to open up the next map location, you must discuss the reason for being there with an NPC (even though you're given a quest in that other location!). I had to check the FAQ to figure out why I couldn't progress. Little things, consistency is really important. This is sort of a borderline bug, as the "bounty" quest should really open up the next map area. The following are really minor things that could be easily improved: - You should be able to immediately exit to map view by hitting some key (if there are no bad guys left). - You should be able to pick which entrance to use on a map with multiple exits. (not needed really) - Your journal has really gotta update you as quest milestones get hit. Sometimes its hard to remember where you left off last night - or if you just gotta go pick up your reward. - Some general indicator of enemy toughness. Just a ballpark level indicator. - And have the text change color on mouse over for selected dialog. Sometimes i worry that I'm gonna click the wrong item if the mouse is sort of on the border of two text options. The tactical level design is excellent. New critters are usually introduced in wimpy "young x" form, introducing you to the types of attacks, resistances, and tactics they use, giving you just the right amount of time to understand how to fight them, before they start getting life threatening. This kind of smooth introduction helps keep the game moving along and prevents you from having to constantly die and reload just because you've never fought this kind of critter before. There is really a surprising amount of diversity in the tactical situations and enemy composition. Fights move quickly, are interesting, and (so far) never feel redundant. In so many other games (old rpgs especially) missions and dungeons drag on for too long. In Avadon, because of the really careful, quick progression of fights, the tactical situations are always changing slightly and don't generally get stale. Really well done. I'm pretty sure that everyone loves the "flooding" fight. It was just the right length. Didn't over-do it, and really added an interesting twist. That was really excellent tactical level design. It's a good game, well worth the price of admission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomizer Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Jeff really likes placing unsellable items for background to fill in the area, like trowels. In some older games these items had value and could be sold, but starting in Avernum 4 the economy turned down and less money became available. In Geneforge 1 with careful play you can suck every last coin out of the merchants on Sucia Island. Welcome to Spiderweb Software. Please leave your sanity at the door. Unsellable trowels are an inside joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punctuation rains from the heavens Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I don't love the random unsellable items either and hate that they distract from useful items. I also dislike the huge amount of empty space in Avadon levels compared to other Spiderweb games. There are a few occasions with actual Sandwich Time while you walk (Dhorl Stead, I'm looking at you) which is unusual for a Spiderweb game. Still, I hardly think this reaches the level of "wow bad." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerakeen Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I've always been a little perturbed by the prevalence of whips and shackles in all Spiderweb games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikki. Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Originally Posted By: Jerakeen I've always been a little perturbed by the prevalence of whips and shackles in all Spiderweb games. I, on the other hand, ensure that one of my PCs has a set of shackles, and a whip at the earliest opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMA Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Originally Posted By: another - Some general indicator of enemy toughness. Just a ballpark level indicator. Aha! Now this is a feature that has only been there in the Geneforge's. You could right-click on any character and see its remaining and maximum health (as a number).The healthier a character, the deadlier will it be. In fact I was surprised that Avadon didn't have it, seeing that it is equally mouse-reliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomizer Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Clicking on an enemy and seeing health was a Windows only feature. You still have a health bar at the base of the characters and watching that tiny sliver of health still there to taunt you is frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
another Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 So I edited up my post a little bit. Wanted to highlight how good a lot of the tactical level design is (because it really is). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMA Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 But why did you strike out the part about choosing where to appear on a map? I had considered that a valid point, especially if it's a large map and you have to walk all the way to the place you want to go to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
another Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 Compared to the other items on the list, it'd take much more work. And for some reason, I think theres some weird psychology that makes it more annoying to walk to an exit after your goal is complete, than walking towards your goal from a given entrance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darint Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Thinking about the unsellable items, which actually don't bother me so much, there is a feature in Angband that could be useful. In Angband you can 'squelch' items. In most of the recent versions the squelched item is still there, but it isn't visible. And there are ways to set and to add to the classes of items which are squelched. It may not be so hard to code that into future games. One problem I see with this feature is the matter of worthless quest items. I suppose at the start they would be invisible and would start appearing when you get the quest. But if you know about the existence of the quest it is less convenient to hoard the items in anticipation of the quest. And of course between the Junk Bag and squelching worthless items, the game could become a bit of a scrounger's paradise, which may or may not be a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dikiyoba Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Originally Posted By: another Compared to the other items on the list, it'd take much more work. And for some reason, I think theres some weird psychology that makes it more annoying to walk to an exit after your goal is complete, than walking towards your goal from a given entrance. The Geneforge games had the feature of being able to choose which direction you wanted to enter a zone from, so it shouldn't be hard at all to add to Avadon. Dikiyoba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba The Geneforge games had the feature of being able to choose which direction you wanted to enter a zone from, so it shouldn't be hard at all to add to Avadon. Dikiyoba. It'd be harder than you might think to implement it in a way that's useful. In Geneforge, zones are static and once they're cleared you're mostly done with them. So once you've cleared a zone, it makes sense to be able to enter adjacent zones from that zone's direction. In Avadon, locations are more dynamic and you're frequently sent back to do new quests and fight new enemies. Sometimes previously friendly territory becomes hostile and you have to fight your way through it, which would often be short-circuited by letting you enter the zone wherever you please -- that's not an unsolvable problem, but extra thought and design work would have to go into preventing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punctuation rains from the heavens Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Choosing the direction wouldn't be necessary if there was some kind of "zip walk" feature for those times you just have to click and then wait 30 seconds or more for the PC to get to the place you need to go, through friendly territory. Dhorl Stead, I'm still looking at you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceiling Durkheim Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 @Lilith: I basically agree, but it bears noting that Jeff has had zones 'un-clear' in Geneforge before; the ones that come immediately to mind are the Gazaki-Uss zones in G5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldengirl Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Originally Posted By: Othar Trygvassen: Gentleman @Lilith: I basically agree, but it bears noting that Jeff has had zones 'un-clear' in Geneforge before; the ones that come immediately to mind are the Gazaki-Uss zones in G5. Very true. Just so long as we don't see Avadon go from its current map to the very MS Paint-esque box-and-line map that Geneforge had, I definitely would support this innovation. Though it may take a bit of time, it can't possibly be too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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