Cant Beat any game in this series

[Mr. Blonde]

I dont know whether its me or its the game series, but ive played through half of 1-4 and cant get past any of the whole games for each. Ive tried reading faqs and to no avail. It seems that the game is impossible for any character that solos-Agents, Serviles, Guardians. Ive tried asking for help from the guy that wrote the faq for Geneforge 4, but hes nowhere to be found.

 

What seems to be the problem is i start the game and its easy, then the difficulty goes from 30% to 250%, all at once. I used to try and get through just one of these games with a solo character but it seems that they punish solo characters so much. My buddy recommended this game to me with the idea that as he sais-"Goin Solo is the best and most fun way to play the game". Im sorry to say that ive given up on trying to figure this game out. Ill stick with avadon or the avernum games, they make sense.

[Randomizer]

Solo is possible, but you have to take advantages of the character's strengths and build towards them from the start.

 

In Geneforge 2, parry was so over powered that a Guardian could avoid taking almost no damage in combat after reaching a certain point. Agents work best when they can use mental magic to control their foes' creations to draw off attacks or duck behind an obstacle after attacking.

 

I've only made it through 1, 4 and 5 and I won't say it was easy.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Check your difficulty setting; there is no shame in joining me on casual difficulty.

 

Also, solo builds are much harder than shaper builds. I know some people prefer solo, but these games are designed for parties.

[Mr. Blonde]

Well, at least its not just me. I was hoping that if i did use creations, i would get to pick a creation from the start and level that creation up as i leveled up. The problem with that is that dont you have to sport 5-6 creations at a minimum to be successful or can you get by with 1-2?

[Triumph]

Originally Posted By: Mr. Blonde

Well, at least its not just me. I was hoping that if i did use creations, i would get to pick a creation from the start and level that creation up as i leveled up. The problem with that is that dont you have to sport 5-6 creations at a minimum to be successful or can you get by with 1-2?

It depends on a lot which creations you use (and the difficulty level / tactics). Frankly, you don't get any GOOD creations at the start of the game. So keep the same creature from the start of the game is really tough because they're just so weak. Depending on the game, you can however get some pretty good creatures fairly early (e.g. Vlish by the second island in G3), and you could then make a couple to keep the rest of the game.

People here can almost certainly advise on which creation to pick and how to get it most quickly if you specify a particular game.

[Mr. Blonde]

I was hoping to get a roamer in g4 and power them up, but you dont get them until mid/late game so there's no point. Artila are too weak, fyora are weak, cryoa are decent 2nd choice and thahds and clawbugs are horrible. Im probably going to skip on the geneforge series until the maker makes the game more user-friendly and at least reasonably challenging. As it stands right now, its the 1st game that ive restarted 40+times on normal difficulty. Either im doing something wrong, or the maker is, im not sure which. I think there should be 5 difficulties. Casual, Amateur (which is normal), Medium (hard/moderate), hard and torment. That way people can enjoy the game without restarting 3 times on every fight. Dont get me wrong, i like the game. But i just dont find it to be very user-friendly.

[Death Knight]

If you are looking for a game that you can enjoy on normal, try avernum 5 and 6. With a decent party, you should have much less difficulty with the game than with any geneforges. I barely got through geneforge 1, gave up on my guardian in g2 and ultimately have a love/hate with geneforge. The story is great, but the game's difficulty is horribly imbalanced. Most people play on casual for that reason. I dont know how anyone can enjoy the experience on torment.

[Jerakeen]

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

If you are looking for a game that you can enjoy on normal, try avernum 5 and 6.

I'm guessing that Mr. Blonde bought the whole series on Steam and would like to get some value out of it before investing in a new game. Which is reasonable.

I am far from being a Geneforge expert, but I have completed almost all of the games on Normal. All I can suggest is that in general:

1. Shaper classes are the easiest. Make creations and don't get too attached to them.

2. Don't expect to be able to go everywhere and do everything. Usually there's a combat option and a mechanics/stealth/leadership option for completing any given task. Pick the one that suits your abilities.

3. You will inevitably encounter optional fights that are way beyond your current level. That's OK, you're meant to come back to those later if you want to.

4. Don't forget about consumables. These can be quite powerful in the early game, and a shaper can almost always use one and still have another action (unless encumbered).

Other than that, I'm afraid the game mechanics change a bit from one to another, so you'll have to be more specific to get really helpful answers from the experts here.

[DisgruntledFish]

I'm going with Turtle, play as a Shaper or beef up a Guardian (preferable with mostly missile, as melee doesn't get that good until Jeff removed the need for 5 action points)Make sure to make plenty of creations and don't get rid of them until you are absolutely sure you can replace it with something better. Try using many save files to make sure you didn't waste some living tools, money, or essence on something.

[Mr. Blonde]

I just took the advice. Ive been playing avernum 5's demo and what can i say, much more casual. It sort of reminds me of avadon a bit, easier to understand too.

 

I dont know about the geneforge series, ive tried to get into it but it comes as too difficult to figure out. Im glad some of you like it though. His newer games seem to really mellow out, which is cool.

[Jerakeen]

Avernum 5 is a good game, but if you want to give Geneforge another shot, G5 might be the best place to start. I found it probably the least murderous of the series. Others may disagree, and frankly my memory may be faulty on that, but at least it's a bit more modern.

[DisgruntledFish]

Since it's more modern, it was easier to play, with many important features.Dot dot dot.

[Yuna Corne]

Originally Posted By: Master1

Also, solo builds are much harder than shaper builds. I know some people prefer solo, but these games are designed for parties.

Are they? I was getting nailed when I was trying Shaper runs (back when Geneforge first came out). Once I went Guardian it got so much easier.

Also, I would glare at my creations and threaten them if they dared to take my experience points away from me. I pretty much only made them to run gleefully into minefields for me. Goodbye, pretty Fyora, you'll look beautiful splattered on the walls.

[Slawbug]

Yeah, with the exception of Geneforge 2, Shapers/Lifecrafters are either the easiest option of one of the easiest options. And Shapers are still easy in G2.

[Jerakeen]

Originally Posted By: Yuna Corne

...I pretty much only made them to run gleefully into minefields for me. Goodbye, pretty Fyora, you'll look beautiful splattered on the walls.

In the later games at least, creations don't set off mines. I don't recall exactly when that changed, but I suppose it's Jeff's way of protecting us from our own baser tendencies.

[A less presumptuous name.]

How else were you supposed to get the canisters in G1? I remember the one south of pentil that I always had a fresh Fyora clear for me. Although the shift did make it easier to scout out zones while leaving your PC in safety.

[Sudanna]

Using the spore batons, or buffing and praying. Some of the mines, at least, don't react to creations anyways.

[Yuna Corne]

Originally Posted By: The Turtle Moves

Originally Posted By: Yuna Corne

...I pretty much only made them to run gleefully into minefields for me. Goodbye, pretty Fyora, you'll look beautiful splattered on the walls.

In the later games at least, creations don't set off mines. I don't recall exactly when that changed, but I suppose it's Jeff's way of protecting us from our own baser tendencies.

Or to draw fire. There's those three spinecores under the lake in 5 (I forget what the area is called - the underground railroad-type passage for the rebels) that would nail me to the wall if I ran in unprotected, so I would create a horde of Fyoras to draw fire while I pretended to be the weedwhacker in the garden of evil.

[DisgruntledFish]

I'm not sure what happened, but Guardians became just plain beast.

[Shaper Monarch]

To be clear, you can solo Geneforge 1 and 2 on torment (I did Geneforge 1 as an Agent and Geneforge 2 as a Guardian-Shaper Aligned-No Canisters). The difficulty is getting used to spending the enemies AP points by baiting them, avoiding battles where you're outnumbered and the usage of expendables. Both characters were melee, which can do absurd damages.

 

I think I've tried shaper runs on torment, but the creations tend to be insufficient in damage output.

[Juan Carlo]

Solo is super easy on torment as long as you play an Agent and spend all your points on offensive magic, with terror/charm spells as your secondary, and enough in blessing to use speed. Don't put any points at all into melee/ranged/shaping (it's a total waste as they never match you spells in terms of dealing damage, and you're not shaping so you will rarely, if ever, run out of essence. Thus you can pretty much just use spells as your primary/only attack) and very few into anything else (i.e. 1 point at the start in str for carry weight, maybe a couple through the game in Int, none in endurance as you will die in 2 hits most of the time anyway so it doesn't matter. The goal is to kill everything before it has the chance to reach you).

 

I just played through as a solo Agent on torment without crafting a single creation. By mid game it becomes absurdly easy as you can one hit kill most monsters, and the ones you can't you can just stun/charm to disable them, then hack away at with your spells. Orr just use speed to give yourself more than one attack per turn.

 

After the challenge that was Avadon on torment, I has a bit disappointed in how easy Geneforge was, actually.

 

Example:

 

I found the dragon in Genforge fairly late in the game, and remembering how difficult the dragon fight in Avadon was, I rather excitedly buffed up with my spells, and prepared myself for a long fight. So you can imagine my disappointment when I used terror on him to stun him, then killed him in like 3 or 4 hits while he just stood there.

 

The hardest fight in the game was the ghost chick that drops the stat belt (can't recall her name), but even she was just a matter of luring off each of her minions one by one, then whacking away at her (if you do any damage she heals herself every time, so you can virtually disable her as long as your attack damge is even slightly higher than the amount she is able to heal herself).

 

But, yeah. I actually would say that as far as "torment" goes, Avadon is WAY harder than Geneforge. There are a few hair pullingly difficult fights in Avadon on torment, but none really that I recall in Geneforge.

[Sudanna]

Geneforge, as the first game in the series, has some kinks like that. And there are no dragons - there are drayks and drakons, and they are less special than dragons.

[MMXPERT-seraph of thermodynamics]

drayk=drake

 

drakon=dragon

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: MMXPERT

drayk=drake

drakon=dragon

The graphics make it clear that the "drakon" is less "Athron" and more "10 foot tall Slith", to use an Avernum comparison.

Still terrifying, but not as dangerous.

[Eddy Webb]

I had the exact same situation (got the Geneforge saga on Steam, played G1 and G5 as a Guardian, got stomped by lots and lots of poison damage). In retrospect, it's a bit "duh" to have not tried a Shaper, so I'm going back through G1 on Casual as a Shaper and seeing how it works out.

 

As a side note, this is not only my first time posting here, but also one of the rare times I've signed up for forums for a game like this. I found I was constantly coming back here as I worked through Geneforge and Avadon (which I beat over Christmas), and the community just seems really positive and helpful -- a rare sight in game communities these days!

[Death Knight]

Welcome to the forums. Yes gene forge may be a bit of a tough ride. However, i found gene forge 5 to be almost too easy compared to the other games jeff's made. If you start there you won't miss much regarding 3 and 4.

[Eddy Webb]

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

Welcome to the forums. Yes gene forge may be a bit of a tough ride. However, i found gene forge 5 to be almost too easy compared to the other games jeff's made. If you start there you won't miss much regarding 3 and 4.

Thanks, Death Knight!

I'm several hours into my latest playthrough on G1, and it is SO MUCH EASIER with a Shaper. I mean, night and day. I think it also helps that I played a few hours of G5 and a lot of Avadon, so I have a better sense of how Jeff's games work as a whole. I'm going to try to play them in order, because while I know how it all ends up in G5 (more or less), I still want to go through the story in order.

Until I ragequit, of course.

[Triumph]

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

Welcome to the forums. Yes gene forge may be a bit of a tough ride. However, i found gene forge 5 to be almost too easy compared to the other games jeff's made. If you start there you won't miss much regarding 3 and 4.

Although the people on the forums here generally regard G3 as the least good of the Geneforge series (still fun, just less good than the others), many here actually consider G4 to be one of the best.

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: Eddy Webb

I'm several hours into my latest playthrough on G1, and it is SO MUCH EASIER with a Shaper.

Yeah, relatively speaking, Shapers have a much easier time in G1 than the other two classes.

[Clockwork Cat]

After playing 1 and 2 in the series when they came out and pretty much forgetting the series after that other than a brief play of the start of 5, the Steam sale got me to jump back in and do a full playthrough.

 

I'm using a path that's as close to the "canon" endings as possible, and using as many different character types as I can stand. I'm currently at the end of Dhonal Isl in G3, playing a canister junkie rebel.

 

I found 1 and 2 still really fun. When I started 3 I would have agreed with Triumph that it was less good, but I feel it got a lot better on the third island. Helping the army in various ways to push west (I'm a rebel but I need to go that way and help is help) was awesome.

 

Shapers are definitely the easiest path, and magic shaping (i.e. Vlish) is the easy way to walk the easy path. I got away with pretty much only magic shaping in 1 and 2, though its harder in 3 due to higher resistances. I've had to supplement with some fire shaping.

[diipadaapaa]

I found the geneforge series too easy on torment. G1 is the only one I didn't finish but that wasn't because of the difficulty but boredom. I played as a shaper and my creation were all wiped out in one shot. But later games were too easy even without all those wands and potions.

 

I don't like where Jeff's games are headed. Avadon and later avernums are on torment easy, but battles gets way too long. Monsters have too much hp. Like fighting slits in A6. If I positioned spellcasters right, I had no chance of dieing but it took 5 turns to kill one. And there were like 30 of them.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

@diipadaapaa: A6 monsters definitely have too many HP, but I don't think those in Avadon do. I think Avadon monsters (and AEftP, which has similar relative HP values) are about right. It bears noting that I also think some SW games have monsters with too few HP (particularly the early Geneforges). My general benchmark is: if it takes more than a turn to kill a normal enemy, that's too many HP. If it takes less than a few turns to kill a boss, that's too few.

[Mr. Blonde]

Well its been a while. Ive decided to give this game series another try. Im thinking of going to start with geneforge 2 this time. Its been hailed as being the one game that did alot of things right in the series.

 

I want to play as a guardian. Does anyone have any tips on creations to use for a ranged guardian user? Suffice it to say, i am stupid with stats in games like these so any help.

[Randomizer]

Geneforge 3 discussion on missile guardian. It's a long debate, but it should give you some ideas since it references the changes between Geneforge 2 and 3.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Parry, parry, and also parry. It's generally agreed that it's overpowered in G2, and guardians get it for really cheap.

[Slawbug]

I don't think that is the missile guardian debate, is it? That is a more generic debate about strategy that began with guardians, that's all. The actual missile guardian debate was earlier in time and involved a lot more yelling, IIRC.

[Death Knight]

You could always go with a different way of playing if you want. Im playing through geneforge 2 right now as an agent that plays as a shaper. Dont put points in melee or missiles and instead focus on taking a few creations from the bottom. Act as a shaper where you daze everything allowing your creations to singly take everything out while backing them up with blessings and mental curses. Im halfway done and i havent lifted a sword once. My 2 clawbugs protect me along with a decent blessing magic and parry skill. Its kind of cool that the agent can handle so many things almost just as well as a shaper.

[Tracer Bullet]

It's been too long since my last visit. I can only hope to start rebuilding a useful identity by being a helpful interlocutor - anyway.

 

So I've always found the battles in Geneforge to be roughly balanced - the trick is to pick your battles and recognize when a foe has been deliberately buffed to keep you out for a few levels. Like in G1, if you just keep heading north, you can run straight into the Dry Wastes and still be something like level 3 - and those clawbugs can one-shot you every time.

 

The way I've won my battles is be knowing the strengths and weaknesses of my foe and my resources, and planning ahead about three rounds. For example: I have me, a weak Shaper, a fyora and two artilas. I'm dealing with a thahd who can one-shot me or either of my artilas, but my fyora has a chance of living one round under his violence. So what do I do? I send the fyora out, hit the thahd, and wait. He runs up, hits my fyora, and them the other three members of my party lay it on him from a safe distance.

 

And so on. You just need to know what you're doing, and everything becomes easy. Or if not easy, at least you'll know in advance when it's going to be danged hard.

 

Thanks for reading!

[lukematt]

Interestingly enough, I have finished every Geneforge game; however, in the Avernum series, I've only finished #2 (and I refuse to play #3 due to its silly "dungeons should be dark" philosophy).

 

General Comments

• All Spiderweb games seem to play pleasantly through their demo portion, but beyond the demo portion, they get tough in one way or another.
• I agree with the person who wrote:
  Originally Posted By: Master1

  Check your difficulty setting; there is no shame in joining me on casual difficulty.

Geneforge Games

• For your creations, keep bumping up their dexterity. For some reason (read as "I think there's a design flaw"), my main character always hits enemies much more frequently than my creations.
• My "party" usually includes only me, a fyora, and an artila. I've tried adding higher-level creations, but when I do, their "hit rate" is abysmally low. {Again, read as "design flaw". If I build up a fyora, for example, to a respectable fighter, then I decide to trade up to a roamer, the roamer should perform better than the fyora. It doesn't.)
• Be a pack rat. Save all wands, crystals, pods, spores, living tools, thorns, and thorn batons that you find. No, there's not enough room in your inventory [next complaint: the number of slots in a player's inventory is limited. It shouldn't be. Encumbrance should suffice.], so dump all excess items on the ground in a friendly town. They will never disappear [nice feature].
• Important tip: You can enter combat mode even when you don't want to fight an enemy. Use this trick to walk past poisonous vats, for example, without getting too seriously hammered.
• If you get stuck on one quest or in one area of the map, try a different quest or a different area. Spiderweb games are so huge--you can always find something to do. Later, come back to the rough quest/area, and you'll find yourself saying, "Why did I think this was so difficult before?"

Final Comment

 

Despite my preceding whines , Spiderweb games are FAIR. Jeff Vogel makes every effort to insure that the games are finishable.

[lukematt]

Originally Posted By: diipadaapaa

too easy on torment

Then I said, "That ain't a knife. **This** is a knife".

[Demon Blade]

easy, what the

[shoopypit]

I had played geneforge 2 first. I was obsessed with it. I replayed the demo like 12 times. Til I begged my dad to death about it and he bought me the game. Sadly, that is the only one I have beaten. I am working on 5 and 1 now, and I am def playing on casual. These games are definitely hard, especially if you don't throw all your stat points into the same two skills constantly.

[Trenton.]

Thats why we have a tips and tricks section. If you are a good strategist, and know exactly when you need to heal, use a certain spell, or stab, then you're fine.

[Juan Carlo]

I've beaten them all on torment except the 5th (which I will start soon). I did the first as a solo agent, the second as a solo guardian, the 3rd as a shaper, and the 4th as a solo servile. I prefer playing solo, though, as combat just takes too long as a shaper. Playing as a shaper in G3 I just got bored watching every single one of my 7 creations move one by one, and stealth portions of the game were agonizing.

 

I think they are, for the most part, FAR easier than most of the Avernum games on torment, and certainly alot easier than Avadon, mainly because (especially in the later games) there are usually several different ways to accomplish any given task, so they are all pretty exploitable. The avernum games all seem to be designed with a fairly rigid traditional party structure in mind, but with the Geneforge games every fight has to be tailored so that it can work with anything ranging from a solo melee fighter all the way to an 8 party shaper. Which I think is why the boss fights tend to be a bit less elaborate (and a good deal easier) in the Geneforge games than they are in the Avernum games.

 

Which I actually prefer. I like Avernum and all, but the Avernum games are so absurdly long that they always tend to wear out their welcome around the 50 hour mark (and they often tend to be packed to the gills with filler, trash mob, combat). But the Geneforge games all took me around 30-40 hours to complete, which is just the right length for an RPG I think.

 

Quote:

I don't like where Jeff's games are headed. Avadon and later avernums are on torment easy, but battles gets way too long. Monsters have too much hp. Like fighting slits in A6. If I positioned spellcasters right, I had no chance of dieing but it took 5 turns to kill one. And there were like 30 of them.

 

I actually think Avadon's torment mode was just right, and even Avernum 4 (while a bit too easy on torment) didn't go crazy with the hit points to artificially jack up difficulty. However, I am currently playing Avernum 5 on torment and it's awful. Mice take like two to three turns to kill and most boss battles take forever. I really hate it when designers assume that increasing hitpoints makes things harder. It doesn't make a game harder, it just makes it longer.

 

Which is another good thing about the GEneforge games. None of them have this "hit point inflation" problem on higher difficulties. I think they are just about right on torment. Unlike in some of the Avernum games, if you are going to die in Geneforge you tend to die in the first round or two of any given combat situation rather than, say, dying after 20 minutes of hacking away at some boss with 8,000 hit points.

[Trenton.]

I have to stop playing on casual with cheats.

 

IDEA! Imma go start a new game, rebel ofcourse, as a warrior, on expert difficulty, with no cheats.

 

I will die in the first 12 seconds, against those serviles.

 

PLACE YOUR BETS HERE!

[Death Knight]

Originally Posted By: Juan Carlo

I've beaten them all on torment except the 5th (which I will start soon). I did the first as a solo agent, the second as a solo guardian, the 3rd as a shaper, and the 4th as a solo servile. I prefer playing solo, though, as combat just takes too long as a shaper. Playing as a shaper in G3 I just got bored watching every single one of my 7 creations move one by one, and stealth portions of the game were agonizing.

I think they are, for the most part, FAR easier than most of the Avernum games on torment, and certainly alot easier than Avadon, mainly because (especially in the later games) there are usually several different ways to accomplish any given task, so they are all pretty exploitable. The avernum games all seem to be designed with a fairly rigid traditional party structure in mind, but with the Geneforge games every fight has to be tailored so that it can work with anything ranging from a solo melee fighter all the way to an 8 party shaper. Which I think is why the boss fights tend to be a bit less elaborate (and a good deal easier) in the Geneforge games than they are in the Avernum games.

What? Geneforge games easier than avernum and avadon? Youve got to be kidding. In avadon, as long as you play with 3 characters, you can use any combination and get to the end of the game with any of the npc combinations and choice of your char.

In geneforge 1-5, if you dont build your stats even close to jeff's hidden way of playing, you wont enjoy the game experience on normal and will ragequit.

[Slawbug]

I'm not sure what leads you to those assertions, Death Knight, but I think those are crazy. Avadon on Torment is harder than ANY Geneforge game on Torment, by far. In all the Geneforge games, there are imbalances between abilities and builds that you can exploit, and if you do so Torment is not so hard after all. In Avadon, picking one of the better builds simply means you CAN survive, it doesn't make it easy. On Normal, none of the games are especially difficult.

 

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

In geneforge 1-5, if you dont build your stats even close to jeff's hidden way of playing, you wont enjoy the game experience on normal and will ragequit.

The proliferation of recommended builds for every Geneforge game would seem to contradict you here. There are TONS of ways to put a character together effectively. The only real problem is if you put skill points all over the place without specializing at all, or if you put all your points into the tiny handful of useless skills. What do you see as "Jeff's hidden way of playing"?

[Death Knight]

Well i get the hidden way of playing from the fact that its much easier to not screw up making a character in any of the games with skill trees (avernum EFTP and avadon). In geneforge 1-5, if you play the game solo (which i dont anymore), you are the sole character that deals damage to enemies. If you spread the points out like you said and dont put points into what you should points into, you will fail. Its much easier to make stupid decisions in any of the games jeff made without skill trees.

 

However, in any of the games that jeff has made with skill trees and stats each level, everything is much simpler. Basically, what i am trying to say is that, all of these games without skill trees (in my opinion) would honestly be enhanced by 5 when jeff makes them with skill trees.

 

The hidden way of playing is that you as the player are supposed to know exactly what skills jeff wants you to use as your character class. So if you make an agent and go too far with other skills instead of what you should be using, you just ruined your character. Its in all the avernum 4-6 as well. If you don't follow jeff's hidden way of playing, your screwed. None of the new games have that, which is good.

[Slawbug]

"...and bollocky pedestrian bloody crossings, and those bastard railings outside shops so you can't even get in them. I mean I know they're there to stop stupid people running into the street and killing themselves, but we're not all stupid! We don't all need nursemaiding!"

— Edina Monsoon

 

EDIT: This line from abfab immediately came to mind. I'm not calling anyone stupid, but there is a real difference — worth recognizing — between a game that that is easy when you look into the mechanics and apply basic CRPG principles but hard otherwise, and a game that is just always hard.

[Death Knight]

who's edina monsoon?