The Art of the Bully

[Valdain the King]

Im playing this great game with one mindset in mind-To make the most roguish type character out there. That might not make sense but it does to me. Instead of relying on crazy brute strength like other fighters, my roguish type character will rely on the art of the bully, using assassination/character traits rising above everyone's level. Oh yes, I am going to rise above them all. Those fiends and dragons that you see fighting my warrior, my rogue will be picking on them! Those liches, Im going to point a finger and say: "Put my clothes in the wash....now!!!"

 

Muahahhahaa

[Death Knight]

i found that rogue type characters were always more useful with a bow/throwing. I tried the same idea that you are trying and it worked partially.

[Alorael at Large]

No. Throwing and bows are pretty terrible in the original trilogy. Fighting without Strength is doable, but you'll be at a disadvantage the entire time. Boosting Blademaster and Melee skills will help, but they won't fix the fact that you're building a suboptimal character.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't think it's impossible. You're just setting yourself up for a very, very hard singleton run. Not having magic is tough. Not having magic or decent melee is brutal.

[Trenton.]

I think bows and crossbows and throwing things did better in exile 3. I think thats where it did the most damage. Of course that just might be because I have a magic powerful bow and an infinite arrow. But rouges have been good at bows at arrows too. I never had an archer other than my main fighter who was an all-around type of fighter.

[Death Knight]

I disagree. In both a4, a6 and a5-you are given 8 spaces that you can move to close in. Thats 4 spaces more than in the original trilogy. Once you close in, archers are no longer archers and melee is game time. The 2nd trilogy is almost too gungho on melee to the point where bows and throwing are pointless. Although bows give you infinite ammo in the 2nd trilogy. Even so though there is only a small amount of arrows and throwing weapons in the 1st series, you still can shoot at someone and still keep a distance. The 2nd trilogy makes things easier for melee, and in doing so make the game no fun for ranged. The main reason the first trilogy is so fun is that you can kite something the 2nd trilogy doesnt have. Geneforge 4 and 5 follow the same rules as what i just said as they give 8 spaces for everyone and it only takes 6-7 to reach your enemy. Ranged is pointless in the newer games.

[Alorael at Large]

The second trilogy gives ranged weapons reasonable damage. The first doesn't. And A4, at least, has rules that make charging into melee more difficult: you can't attack with just a few AP left.

 

—Alorael, who considers that change a good one. Loss of range or no loss of range, having useless AP was infuriating.

[Slawbug]

Yes, ranged weapons are far, far more useful, compared to other attacking options, in A4, than in any other Spiderweb game.

[Death Knight]

Originally Posted By: music swells, curtain falls

The second trilogy gives ranged weapons reasonable damage. The first doesn't. And A4, at least, has rules that make charging into melee more difficult: you can't attack with just a few AP left.

You really think so? I remember the last time i played a4 and a5, the multiplier for most bows (other than heartstriker) was 1-2, with some 1-3. The multiplier is not only better in the 1st trilogy, but the need for sharpshooter isnt needed, at least imo. The only real thing you get that is worthwhile in the second trilogy for ranged investment, is chance to hit. Whats 1-2 damage going to do with regarding beating monsters?

You are right with a4 though. In a4, as much as the story wasnt as good as a5, charging in melee doesnt work as 5 ap rule. The thing i hated with a5 and onward was that you get 8 ap to do anything with just 1 to do it. That nerfs ranged and top that off with the battle disciplines. Battle disciplines is another avadon type thing that i never could get into. Avadon did that aspect right but had the battles play out much differently. The thing that could decide all this in the a1 remake is the fact that jeff is adding perks and reworking the BD system. I just hope jeff doesnt go linear with the remake.



Edit-There is however one other thing your view has that i might have overlooked, and that is the fact that the amount of missile weapons eventually run out or stop getting sold at the stores. If that is the case, then throwing weapons are indeed useless and bows close to the same.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Yes, ranged weapons are far, far more useful, compared to other attacking options, in A4, than in any other Spiderweb game.

They have their uses in BoA as well, mostly because direct-damage magic in BoA is kind of awful.

[Death Knight]

Just for my knowledge, was there a refill on missile weapons in the first trilogy? I never stopped to notice if they restock. If they dont then you might be onto something.

[Randomizer]

I think the only refills were random item generating stores.

[Death Knight]

What is a random generating store? Are you talking about wandering merchants.

[Alorael at Large]

No. Exile had some merchants whose shops reset regularly and contained a completely random assortment. Some stuff was junk, and some stuff was amazingly good.

 

In Avernum, I don't recall if such shops existed. I also thought that some shops had some items in unlimited supply, though. And in A3 you could always sell ammunition to Levy and buy it back infinitely.

 

—Alorael, who is pretty sure that A5-6 give bows the same damage multiplier as swords (and shortbows the same multiplier as shortswords). You can do quite well with them. In A1-3, their damage always seemed lower, although careful analysis may be missing. Oh, and battle disciplines apply to magic and ranged as well as melee.

[Death Knight]

When you say that the damage is low, do you mean the multiplier. I always thought that the multiplier for all jeffs games was the bottom divided by the top. A bow or throwing weapon in a1, 2 is 2-20 or 2-24 damage. Thats 1-10 damage right? I never really knew what determined damage in the first trilogy as it only specified the multiplier in boa. I just figured it was 1-10 damage per dex and missile weapon. Is there a chart for this area?

[Thoukydides]

Funny you should say that Death Knight, I'm currently in the process of studying stat effects in A1 and I will be making a thread when I've finished. A3 shows weapon multipliers as well, but A1 and A2 don't.

 

Also, Valdain, I've noticed that assassination, at least in A1 caps at level 15, A2 and 3 may be different. I don't think increasing it higher than that does anything. In addition, the skill doubles your damage, so it should be a viable skill for a fighter as long as you don't ignore weapon skill and blademaster.

[Death Knight]

I just read up on avernum 2 harehunter's site that anatomy actually does give bonus points to damage for bows and throwing weapons. This is interesting as even though it is .5 points, that matters quite a bit when you consider that it all adds up. Does anyone know if anatomy applying to ranged weapons only applies to a1 and a2, or if it is for avernum 3 and boa?

 

Thoukydides, you might want to look into that as it states a bit of stuff about dexterity as well. http://hasenjs.byethost33.com/Silverchat/Avernum/characters1.html

[Thoukydides]

I have been using Harehunter's wonderful site, as well as the walkthroughs on Gamefaqs. I assumed that anatomy did not apply to ranged and so I didn't test it, but I suppose I should do that and assassination just to verify. I assumed assassination does apply to ranged damage, so I didn't bother.

 

As a side note, I really like that Jeff made special skills trainable in later games. Getting the learning crystals is such a pain, though it's easier than reaching Khoth or killing Grah-Hoth.

[Valdain the King]

Haha, Im using assassination right now and it does not apply to ranged. However, anatomy does. The one thing which alludes me is whether the slith get a bonus to hardiness. It states almost something like that in both trilogies. Im still not sure if the slith do or do not. I think they might in the 2nd trilogy.

[Slawbug]

In the second trilogy, they get a fire resistance bonus, and a HP bonus; both vary slightly between titles. No Hardiness, though. No idea about the first trilogy.

[Death Knight]

Originally Posted By: Valdain the King

Haha, Im using assassination right now and it does not apply to ranged. However, anatomy does. The one thing which alludes me is whether the slith get a bonus to hardiness. It states almost something like that in both trilogies. Im still not sure if the slith do or do not. I think they might in the 2nd trilogy.

Hmm...thats interesting, does anyone know if anatomy applies to ranged weapons in the second trilogy? It obviously applies to the first.

[Slawbug]

I think I may have tested it and it didn't apply, but I'm not totally sure about that.

[Carranzero]

forgot the fact that there are arrows of light to hurt demons (hint hint, serves a lot at the end of A2) and bolts of life to hurt undeads (pesky lichs)