Geneforge 2-Series of questions

[Death Knight]

Alright i managed to get the game going and i am thinking of making a guardian this time, instead of an agent in geneforge 1. Now things are a bit confusing, the agent was said to be the hard character to play in the 1st game, now the guardian is the hard character to play. I dont want to sound weird, but how could that be? I thought the guardian was the physical powerhouse of the previous game.

 

The other question is since i am going to play the guardian, what would be a set number of skills someone can recommend to stick with. I DONT want to have what happened last time, where i stupidly put half my points in luck

 

Any other pointers for the game would be cool.

[Randomizer]

Parry was broken in GF2 to the point that you can avoid most damage and riposte it back to your enemies.

 

Pick melee or missile weapons as a main attack type. I like missile because you can pick off the closest target without attracting the rest. Dexterity doesn't help with increasing damage until GF3.

 

I haven't played a Guardian far enough into the game to help out enough.

[Triumph]

Like Randomizer said. The system changed in some ways from G1 to G2, most notably by adding the Parry skill (replaced the Anatomy skill from G1).

 

You'll want to pump Parry to 18 or 20. Put a few points into Endurance. Get Leadership to around 10, Mechanics to around 12; you'll actually need higher levels of these skills in game, but there are items that boost the skills beyond this point. Put a couple points into Blessing Magic, so you can buff yourself. Similarly you want just a few points in Healing Craft to help keep yourself strong. Parry is ultra good, but you will get hit occasionally, and magic can help with those times. You'll want to put some points in Strength just to help you wear some of the heavier gear.

 

For attacking, if you go for missile weapons, you'll want to boost that skill. If you go for melee weapons, boost Strength, Quick Action, and Melee.

 

Those are rough numbers, not exact rules or anything, but hopefully they'll give some ideas of building a fairly sturdy Guardian.

[Death Knight]

Thanks for the info. Oh, and do your skill points per level go up past 6, because i noticed that your skills go up more in this game.

[Triumph]

Oh, yes, that's another change from G1 to G2. The number of skill points to raise a skill keeps creeping up. It's a balance issue.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

Thanks for the info. Oh, and do your skill points per level go up past 6, because i noticed that your skills go up more in this game.

Unfortunately, they do not. For the rest of the series, skills will take more than one character level to upgrade past a certain point.

[Death Knight]

So if that is the case, then how am i going to get parry up to 18, along with the other skills? If i am a guardian i should just focus on melee mostly, then shaping, then leadership and maybe a bit of mechanics. I might as well forget about magic.

[Triumph]

Well, you can save up skill points from level to level until you have enough to spend to gain another point of Parry or whatever. So if the cost of the next point of Parry is 6 skill points, after two level-ups you'll more than enough to get another point of Parry.

 

Don't waste points on Shaping; it's just not really worth it for a Guardian. If you really to shape some, at least make sure to focus on just one type of shaping (e.g. Fire Shaping, or Magic Shaping).

 

If you want to be a melee fighter, remember that Strength also boosts your damage output, and Quick Action gives you chances of effectively doing double damage (by striking two blows at once).

 

I would still recommend getting a couple points of Blessing Magic, even though it's expensive for a Guardians; the buffing spells are worth it.

[Death Knight]

Thanks triumph!

 

I was also wondering as a thought just occured to me about maybe using batons as a ranged fighter. I remember that it said in previous games, that agents shouldnt use batons as magic is their actual baton and ranged weapon. It also states that the only characters that should use batons are shapers (primarily) and guardians too. I would like to make a guardian no matter what, but would it be possible if i instead focused on missiles, dexterity, endurance (few points), leadership, mechanics, and a few spare points in shaping.

 

Big one here-does parry work with ranged weapons, or just melee? I hope that it is just melee as that would be overpowered.

[Triumph]

Heeheehee...Parry IS overpowered in G2. I'm about 96.3% sure Parry helps with ranged attacks.

 

Yes, you could probably play as a missile-weapon user. The Reaper Baton you'll eventually find is extremely powerful, and the lesser Submission and Acid batons aren't bad. Plus you can supplement with wands and crystals. As a missile-user, you'd build your character the same as I described before, but with a strong investment in missile weapons, and no investment in melee or quick action, and less concern with strength.

[Death Knight]

Ok, just a quick question. I am making my character with the above-referenced skills and was just wondering if i should put any points into intelligence. I was thinking of maybe adding 2 points for my guardian as i have almost NO spell energy and more importantly essence. Will giving him 2 points of intelligence kill a guardian or should i just get skill boosts for him?

[Triumph]

Putting points into Intelligence probably isn't worth it. You don't need to make creations, you're relying on your own sheer brawn to power through. There are items along the way that'll boost your intelligence if you need more energy / essence for spells. Basically, wait and see; if you find you really need another point of intel to cast vitally need buffs / healing, take it, but it can probably wait until you've boosted more vital skills.

[Txgangsta]

You will most likely never ever need a little creature running around with you. Never put a point in intelligence or shaping as a guardian. Just don't. If you have spare points, put it in primary damage spot (missle, dex) or primary defense spot (Parry and Endurance). Wasting skill points on shaping is so worthless with a guardian.

[Skwish-E]

As a guardian, the only good use for a creation is to make it a thief. The guardian hides around the corner, and the thief creation walks in and steals everything in sight. Even when done in full view of the objects' owner, the crime is never seen. (Not sure that it works in all versions)

[Txgangsta]

But you can get points in shaping from books or canisters to do that. Wasting 7 skill points on fire shaping is really truly worthless.

[Death Knight]

Is luck in geneforge 2 the same as in geneforge 1? Im trying to get a definte list to its properties per point.

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: Triumph

You don't need to make creations, you're relying on your own sheer brawn to power through.

If you have the essence and Shaping skill from items, why would you *not* make creations? Each creation will add an extra 200 per round (hasted), and draw attacks away from the Guardian. Can you think of a better purpose for your essence?

[Triumph]

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

Originally Posted By: Triumph

You don't need to make creations, you're relying on your own sheer brawn to power through.

If you have the essence and Shaping skill from items, why would you *not* make creations? Each creation will add an extra 200 per round (hasted), and draw attacks away from the Guardian. Can you think of a better purpose for your essence?

The problem is that as a Guardian, you WON'T have the shaping skills. You're pouring all your skill points into other areas that offer a better return (for Guardians).

[Slawbug]

Yeah, Geneforge 2 really is made for solo guardians, with the overpowered Parry. Geneforge games really put the classic style difference in stark relief: between overwhelming with massive force so who cares about defense, versus the bottleneck impenetrable defense or defensive tactics that allow you to survive anything. If you could make creations with your own level of Parry, that would be great for Guardians. You can't, so if you make creations, you negate the major advantage of the Guardian (since Parry does not apply to most of your team) and you are basically playing as a Shaper with more expensive shaping skills.

[Death Knight]

You know whats hilarious about all this. I read the listing of characters in this game and was surprised to see that guardian is listed as "harder" to play as other than agents and shapers. Now everyone here says its easier to be guardian. Kind of funny really, but i guess i picked an easy class. The agent's probably still the hardest one to play, like in the 1st game.

[Randomizer]

It depends how you play the classes.

 

A guardian that doesn't take advantage of how Parry is broken in GF2 is harder. Shapers are easier if you make an army of 7 creations since less will lower your fire power and leave you vulnerable to attacks. An agent has more different attacks and can do area effect attacks.

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Yeah, Geneforge 2 really is made for solo guardians, with the overpowered Parry. Geneforge games really put the classic style difference in stark relief: between overwhelming with massive force so who cares about defense, versus the bottleneck impenetrable defense or defensive tactics that allow you to survive anything. If you could make creations with your own level of Parry, that would be great for Guardians. You can't, so if you make creations, you negate the major advantage of the Guardian (since Parry does not apply to most of your team) and you are basically playing as a Shaper with more expensive shaping skills.

I never said to invest in a Shaping skill. If you can obtain two expendable drayks for no tangible investment (using equipment), surely you'd take them?

[Slawbug]

Actually, no. Not in that case. The point I was trying to make above is that having extra allies is _not_ always an advantage. If your defense alone is superb, but your overall party defense with creations is middling, they may not be an advantage. In fact they could be a disadvantage if you want to keep them alive; but even viewed as disposable, they may not make a noticeable impact on your power.

[Brocktree]

Drayks aren't hard to keep alive. And even so, since the Guardian will be drawing fire, it shouldn't really be a problem.

 

The alternative is to have all that essence go to waste.

[Slawbug]

Take a Drayk to later game areas on Torment and see how easy it is to keep alive.

 

And the Guardian isn't going to draw all the fire unless the Guardian is the only one doing the attacking.

 

"If you don't do this your essence will go to waste" is an irrelevant argument. If you have an effective, streamlined strategy with no downsides, it really doesn't matter whether you use your essence or your don't.

[Randomizer]

Even if you don't attack you still can draw fire. I've played a shaper hiding out of sight behind a wall and a creation still came after me ignoring my attacking creations.

[Brocktree]

Well, I've played through GF2 as a Guardian, and I can vouch for having as many drayks as possible in tow. At worst, they will get killed. At best, they will increase your damage output per round.

 

I also think that posters may be forgetting exactly how powerful drayks were in Geneforge 2, before they got nerfed in GF3.

[Slawbug]

Look, I'm not saying shaping is a bad strategy, I'm saying it's not obviously better (in this one case) than the overpowered defensive strategy available to Guardians. And if you have as many drayks as possible in tow, then why not just play as a shaper in the first place? You'll have better ability to support them with magic, and they'll be higher level either from pumping Fire Shaping higher earlier, or from having enough essence to shape them earlier, or both.

 

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

At worst, they will get killed. At best, they will increase your damage output per round.

No argument. Let's compare to a defensive singleton build. At worst, many battles will take more rounds due to doing less damage, although the rounds will go significantly faster since you input 1/8 as many commands. At best, everything will go faster because of the above issue plus a lack of creations simplifies some UI elements, and harder battles will be easier to deal with since you don't have to worry about casualties impacting your attack plans.

 

Quote:

I also think that posters may be forgetting exactly how powerful drayks were in Geneforge 2, before they got nerfed in GF3.

Okay, you made me go and look this up. In G2, Drayks get:

Base level: 18

+60 HP bonus

4% armor (like almost all creations)

No other resistance bonuses

Melee attack: (Strength + 8) d 8 (like all characters in the game)

Fire breath: (Strength + 20) d 6

 

I'm missing the part about how this is incredibly powerful. Good, yes, but not show-stopping.

[Death Knight]

Im in a bit of a bind. I cant seem to figure out how to get acid resistance. I only have 15% and these thahds are just destroying me. Is it dexterity?

[Triumph]

How high is your Parry and what level are you? Ideally, you don't need to resist because they don't ever touch you.

 

Edit: I think Luck can boost resistances, and some items can too. But if you are taking damage, there are much better solutions than spending skill points on Luck or wearing acid resistance items. It may mean boosting parry, or picking up a little Endurance (which can be useful for those hopefully few times when something gets by Parry), or changing your tactics.

[Death Knight]

I have a parry of 8 and my sword skill and quick action is 8 too. I am lvl 15 and playing on norm. I find that i cant beat the serviles that wield acid batons as they nearly 1 shot ko me. The reason why i might need to put points into dex is because i only have 20% acid res. Parry is good but i want to find a side like the barzites that i can join and reap the battle training benefits. The only side that gives good training so far is awakened. Servants dont give good training and its becoming a chore to reach barzahl.

 

Ive been trying to reach barzahl and have powered my way through the lower/mid region up till the bridge.

 

The one thing I dont get with all this is that there are 3 classes in the game and only 1 of them uses shaping skills. The guardian and agent only use shaping as decoys. I was going to make my guardian a bit of a commander but luckily i didnt waste much points on shaping. Really a disappointment.

[Slawbug]

If you wanted to shape, why didn't you play a shaper?

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Look, I'm not saying shaping is a bad strategy, I'm saying it's not obviously better (in this one case) than the overpowered defensive strategy available to Guardians.

But having several drayks and an overpowered defensive strategy are not mutually exclusive.

Quote:

And if you have as many drayks as possible in tow, then why not just play as a shaper in the first place?

Because then you miss out on the advantages afforded to the Guardian in regards to parry and melee. Sure, Guardians will never have as many powerful creations as a Shaper character, but then, that's the whole point. The purpose of Guardians is to go headlong into battle with creation support.

Quote:

No argument. Let's compare to a defensive singleton build. At worst, many battles will take more rounds due to doing less damage, although the rounds will go significantly faster since you input 1/8 as many commands. At best, everything will go faster because of the above issue plus a lack of creations simplifies some UI elements, and harder battles will be easier to deal with since you don't have to worry about casualties impacting your attack plans.

With creation support, battles will not only go faster, but further increase survivability of the Guardian by drawing fire.

Quote:

I also think that posters may be forgetting exactly how powerful drayks were in Geneforge 2, before they got nerfed in GF3.

Okay, you made me go and look this up. In G2, Drayks get:
Base level: 18
+60 HP bonus
4% armor (like almost all creations)
No other resistance bonuses
Melee attack: (Strength + 8) d 8 (like all characters in the game)
Fire breath: (Strength + 20) d 6

I'm missing the part about how this is incredibly powerful. Good, yes, but not show-stopping.

You just made my point for me. About 1/4 of the way through the game, you can Shape a creation which does an average of 100 damage a round with its ranged attack.

[Triumph]

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

I have a parry of 8 and my sword skill and quick action is 8 too. I am lvl 15 and playing on norm. I find that i cant beat the serviles that wield acid batons as they nearly 1 shot ko me. The reason why i might need to put points into dex is because i only have 20% acid res. Parry is good but i want to find a side like the barzites that i can join and reap the battle training benefits. The only side that gives good training so far is awakened. Servants dont give good training and its becoming a chore to reach barzahl.

Ive been trying to reach barzahl and have powered my way through the lower/mid region up till the bridge.

The one thing I dont get with all this is that there are 3 classes in the game and only 1 of them uses shaping skills. The guardian and agent only use shaping as decoys. I was going to make my guardian a bit of a commander but luckily i didnt waste much points on shaping. Really a disappointment.

If you are trying to improve your defense in some way, boost PARRY, not Dexterity. Parry is the demigod skill of G2. I would say you ideally would have had Parry several points higher than it is by this point in the game (say, at 12).

Technically you can do anything you want with any class you want, but there are just certain route that are optimal for certain classes. Guardians do Parry, Shapers shaper, and Agents cast spells.

Also, if you are stuck or keep getting killed going one direction, leave and keep exploring elsewhere. Make sure to poke into every corner of every zone that you can reach. You may find another exit from the zone, or nifty loot, or enemies weak enough that you can beat them. More than any of the other Geneforge games I played, G2 kept surprising me with unexpected zone exits and new routes and so forth.

[Death Knight]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

If you wanted to shape, why didn't you play a shaper?

The reason being that guardians still are average at shaping, so why does the agent do melee which she is average at, when she is great at magic? Why bother. The guardian is said to be able to shape decently, yet he cant branch out at all. It makes no sense as in g1 a guardian can be decent in shaping. Ill say again, 3 shaping classes, of the 3 only 1 shapes. That makes no sense and thus agents and guardians shouldnt be called shapers if they dont use it.

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Look, I'm not saying shaping is a bad strategy, I'm saying it's not obviously better (in this one case) than the overpowered defensive strategy available to Guardians.

But having several drayks and an overpowered defensive strategy are not mutually exclusive.

They aren't mutually exclusive, but my argument is that you are better off picking one strategy or the other (offense blast vs defense bottleneck). You argue you are better off mixing. I think at this point we're just repeating the same things to each other. We can keep doing more and more permutations, I can explain how the 100 damage the drayk does is not the point, you can explain how you think it is, we won't get anywhere.

[Death Knight]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Look, I'm not saying shaping is a bad strategy, I'm saying it's not obviously better (in this one case) than the overpowered defensive strategy available to Guardians.

But having several drayks and an overpowered defensive strategy are not mutually exclusive.

They aren't mutually exclusive, but my argument is that you are better off picking one strategy or the other (offense blast vs defense bottleneck). You argue you are better off mixing. I think at this point we're just repeating the same things to each other. We can keep doing more and more permutations, I can explain how the 100 damage the drayk does is not the point, you can explain how you think it is, we won't get anywhere.

I know what you are trying to say and i get it. There is no use going back and forth. But guardians still in my opinion should have at least 1 ally when surrounded by more than 3 enemies. Maybe im not playing right, but when i get surrounded by 5 battle alphas, Im a guardian, ive only got healing spells and minor blessing spells, i dont really have many other choices. At least not to my knowledge. Ive only played the 1st game and this one so far, so I dont know.

[Triumph]

Two points:

 

1. If you had 18 Parry, those three enemies wouldn't be as much of a problem.

 

2. You may need to change your tactics, work harder to draw off just one or two enemies at a time, and thus avoid getting swarmed so often.

[Death Knight]

You know what the problem is, i dont have enough parry, quick action and even more so, enough chance to hit. I could easily remedy that with more points into blades, but soon blades will cost too much as well as parry already costing too much. I might have to boost endurance or possibly luck even though i dont want to. Im not sure really. Luckily, like everyone sais, the guardian is a tank.

[Triumph]

What do you mean they cost too much? You may have to save up skill points from multiple levels, but you should definitely be able to keep raising those skills.

[Death Knight]

Ok. So what would be a decent and reasonable level for parry. I read a gamefaqs faq that stated 18 or 20. Do i really have to go that high or can i stay at 15 or around that ballpark?

[Triumph]

I would aim for 18 or 20. Really truly. You will find some items that can help, though.

[Slawbug]

Also, honestly, the gameFAQs faqs about spiderweb games are worse than average quality for gameFAQs. They are good for basic information, where stuff is, how to solve puzzles, etc. Their advice however is not particularly good. I wouldn't pay any attention to their suggestions when it comes to skill points, for example.

[Death Knight]

I am I would guess, almost done with the game. After sacking the facility for zakary, i am now going to sack the barzite facility. I am siding with the the shapers (servants) and to be honest, it makes a lot of sense in a way, at least to me.

 

Barzites are obviously insane, i havent even met the takers that much and i know they are insane. Then there's the awakened. For this game, i find that the awakened make the least sense. In order for you to deal with a really serious problem like in this game, you have to have real strength, but sensibility with it. And the awakened just dont seem to be capable of holding their own against the others. While the barzites have strength, they are delusional along with the takers. Servants, though they are fake in a sense, are willing to do evil to prevent a lesser evil. It makes sense in this game.

 

The only thing im gonna say about the difference from g1 and g2, is that alot has changed. My parry is only 12 and i am taking on mages that would normally destroy me in g1. Its a good thing, but the guardian can really be too over the top. Once im done with this, i am anxiously awaiting g3. Bet things have changed yet again.

[Dikiyoba]

The Awakened have plans that will enable them to hold their own, but you won't see it unless you get one of the right quests.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Triumph]

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

Once im done with this, i am anxiously awaiting g3. Bet things have changed yet again.

Yeah, there are some more changes in the system. Where the Parry-Guardian is the optimal power route of G2, the Vlish-Shaper is the optimal power route in G3.

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

i havent even met the takers that much and i know they are insane

Nah, they aren't. But working for them is one of the most enjoyable aspects of the game.

I also love how you can ally yourself with a genocidal maniac in Geneforge 5, and actually see his 'Final Solution' through to its completion. I don't think any other game has ever offered you such an option.

[Death Knight]

Im kinda really stuck. I just got into the taker lands and am at the taker toll road. However, there are a freakish amount of really high health rogues to the point where even parry is no match. I may block 5 hits, but when one hits, thats 84 damage from a fireball. I didnt think it would get this hard. My damage barely kills 1 or 2 creations in a swipe. Any suggestions?

[Triumph]

More Parry. But also...try looking for other areas to explore for now, until you get stronger.

[Death Knight]

Ok cool, thanks. just out of curiosity, what is the level bracket to fight the last bosses? Should i be close to 40? If so, ive got a LOT of leveling to do as i am 26.