Avadon or Avadon't?

[RandomOG]

Will I buy Avadon or not? On the basis of the demo I think probably not. I just didn't find it very engaging.

 

I started on Exile 2 or 3 back in 1996 and have bought several Exile and Avernum games since. It would be fair to say that the trend has been uniformly to simplify the game mechanics. Fewer spells, simpler training, fewer stats and skills, no rest, no food, unconsciousness instead of death etc. A balance is needed, but I think Avadon carries this dumbing down too far. One of the attractions of RPGs for me is the ability to customise my character and this is progressively being lost. Jeff, at the end of the instructions, is even talking about 'fixing' overuse of Dexterity by not allowing any selection of statistics in Avadon 2. (Whereas if anything needs fixed it seems to be that Dexterity is too powerful and he needs a lower cap or a law of diminishing returns.)

 

I enjoy playing 'mages' and the new magic system looks like it will be way too restrictive for my taste with long cooldowns and a Vitality meter to watch, so that sorceresses will be very circumscribed in their use of abilities. Jeff's comments on vitality don't make sense to me. I'm supposed to be aware of it but not worry about it , because I will almost always have enough, but he wishes he hadn't placed so many Potions of Vitality? He can't have his cake and eat it. If I will always have enough, the meter shouldn't be there because in practice it makes me think I have to hold back on abilities for really tough situations.

 

I consider my screen medium res - 1280x1024 - but I end up with tiny Character icons scurrying across the screen at a speed where my mouse hardly catch up with wandering NPCs to click on them. (My CPU and Graphics card were very humdrum 4 years ago).

 

Having read Jeff's May 4 Blog I realise he is a bit sensitive about criticism right now. - But I am disappointed if this is his new direction and I think that pursuit of casual gamers is a very uncertain financial strategy. How many of them will be repeat buyers over a 15 year period? I wish him well but I may have to be looking elsewhere in future.

[Lauren CW]

Vitality really isn't a big deal at all. I took everyone's endurance to 10 and left it there on hard mode, and only ever ended up using like... 4 vitality potions?

And I did everything possible in an area before returning to avadon. If I had turned in every quest as soon as I could, I would never have used vitality potions at all. So don't worry about it.

 

The cooldown system is rather annoying for Shamans. Everyone else is fine.

The Sorceress, when outfitted with 3 attack scarabs, never ran out of attacks for me. And if she did, there's always items that negate the cooldowns. Which I also never used.

 

Dex IS super powerful though. My shadowwalker didn't get hit once by the "Boss" at the end of the game. In fact, I was kindof disappointed by the lack of difficulty in the game, given that only one fight had me really THINK about a way to tackle it rather than rush in blindly and whack away.

Maybe Torment will stretch my limits. Hard certainly didn't.

[Alorael at Large]

There's not really a strong reason to put stats into the game. The real character customization is in the skill tree, and you do still get some meaningful choices.

 

—Alorael, who acknowledges that Avadon gives you more limited skills. It's a very different system, though, and it's not as limiting as it initially looks. And to be fair, Avernums 1-3 have much more complicated skill than Exile. Even the increasing prices of later Avernums and Geneforge are slightly more interesting than the flat rates of Exile.

[Randomizer]

Jeff modified the stats from previous games and dexterity became more useful than in the past. I'm guessing Avadon 2 will make more damage types be affected by the other stats so excessively increasing one stat won't break the game.

 

A sorceress with focus mastery skill at 8 tends to do quite well through the last half of the game. Abilities recharge fast enough that a recovery potion isn't needed to use most of the abilities. Armor and resistances make her survive a lot of damage.

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Explosively yours, Aarthen

The real character customization is in the skill tree, and you do still get some meaningful choices.

This is key.

You get FEWER PC-building choices than in previous games.

However, the choices you do get are MORE meaningful.

[Death Knight]

Alright im set on buying avadon. I only have 1 question, if i buy the game's code and the cd, will i only get the game code when they mail the cd? I dont know how long it will take for the cd to get here. Just wondering.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Nope. Jeff sends the code in an email shortly after you order.

[Marak]

Yeah, I had my code within seconds when I ordered.

 

Also, don't judge by the demo. The game gets much, much better, but only a little ways after the demo ends. At least, it did for me.

[*i]

Just to repeat something Jeff said:

 

Quote:

Were you my fan, but the Avadon demo turned you off? Well, here's a challenge. We have a one year no questions asked money-back guarantee. Buy the game. Give it a few hours on Hard or Torment difficulty. (I suggest until the boss fight with Zhossa Mindtaker.)

 

Still disappointed? Then I don't want your money. You get it back. My lips to God's ear.

[Danny the Fool]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

You get FEWER PC-building choices than in previous games.

However, the choices you do get are MORE meaningful.

We old school RPG players like being able to customize everything. But when I look at what my decisions actually do then I'm not quite sure I need to be able to decide where every single stat point goes. I can get the same kind of choices from skills, except those choices where my character becomes super powerful because I pumped 99% of my points into one stat... which I don't think enhances the game a lot.

On another note, OP is a bit opportunistic with his use of the terms "dumbed down" and "casual gamers", what with the complaints about the sorceress not being an instant super powerful battle mage in the same post...

[RandomOG]

Hey the OP wasn't long enough for you? I should have avoided shorthand altogether?

 

I never expected the sorceress to be Erika from the beginning nor complained she wasn't. On the basis of the demo I was just concerned this was going to be the kind of game which excessively hobbles 'magic users' all the way through.

[Micawber]

It gets better later on when you have more abilities to choose from, then you can use 5 or 6 different attacks (tactically selected). At that point, if anything is still left alive, drink a recovery potion, then start again.

[RandomOG]

Hadn't come across the money back offer before. It's genuinely generous. But the last para! Do you have the saying about someone 'throwing their toys out of the pram' in the US?

[goblindolf]

Originally Posted By: Danny the Fool

I can get the same kind of choices from skills, except those choices where my character becomes super powerful because I pumped 99% of my points into one stat... which I don't think enhances the game a lot.

There is no link between high stat customization and one overpowered stat which you put everything into... actually didnt we get that with dexterity and less stats than the previous games? In the previous game you would never just pump one stat, ever.

Also in avadon isn't the best strategy to focus on the middle tree and sink points into the same skill 4+ levels in a row all through the game?

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: goblindolf

There is no link between high stat customization and one overpowered stat which you put everything into... actually didnt we get that with dexterity and less stats than the previous games? In the previous game you would never just pump one stat, ever.

I dunno, pumping nothing but intelligence was a pretty optimal strategy for a shaper in most Geneforge games.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: Randomiser

Hey the OP wasn't long enough for you? I should have avoided shorthand altogether?

I never expected the sorceress to be Erika from the beginning nor complained she wasn't. On the basis of the demo I was just concerned this was going to be the kind of game which excessively hobbles 'magic users' all the way through.

There's a phrase that goes around gaming circles: "Linear fighter, quadratic wizard." In many games, starting with D&D, mages start out wimpy and then becoming overwhelmingly powerful. That's not really great balance and goes against modern game design. You don't have to like it, but that's the current trend.

The casters in Avadon don't start out completely puny, but they hit their stride later. They never outshine the fighters, really, but a sorceress is included in most parties for most of the game for their damage-dealing abilities (and, oddly enough, their resistance) and a shaman can make some of the toughest fights much easier. In those fights, you'll be casting a spell every round, or close to it.

Avadon's sorceresses and shamans never play like mages in Avernum or Geneforge; the system just doesn't work like that. Even without the spells that are better than anything a fighter can ever do, you'll have spells that aren't something a fighter can do (elements, lots of area of effect, summoning, some buffs), and you'll need them.

As for maximizing the middle, well, most Spiderweb games have had dominant character build strategies. You can play a very different and quite viable party without maximizing the middle tree, and even if you do you still have the choice of left or right tree and whether to go for the top or maximize the bottom.

—Alorael, who hadn't heard that expression before and looked it up. He's not sure it's apt. Jeff isn't really throwing a tantrum about it, he's willing to literally put his money where his mouth is (different idiom!) and let doubters have a free shot at his games on the assumption that if they like them they'll come through and not take back their money. If anything, he's taking a risk for his fans and potential fans.

[Kiexcolo]

Well I will just put my 2 cents in too...

 

The comments I am about to give will probably sound critical and I understand that Jeff is trying for something different so you can just leave my cents untouched.

 

I have played most of the Spiderweb games and my favourite was Avernum 3 because it felt like a open world with lots of places to explore and discover. I was kinda disappointed with the later Avernum games because they felt somewhat linear but they were still playable. With Avadon it feels even worse because you keep going back to the same places and maybe they have one more extra dialogue/quest and only one more area is opened up... while I think I understand what Jeff is trying to achieve here (really!!), it seems to be executed rather poorly.

 

The cool down for abilities is just way too long. There are periods of time when my sorceress/shaman had to use their physical ranged attack because all my spells were in cool down and the enemy is immune to my default magic attack (And I like to save my wands...) which strikes me as pretty weird. Rather than long cool downs, I would prefer that powerful spells/skills have a higher fatigue cost so that players won't just spam powerful spells/skills (Kinda like the old school MP system really).

 

Also I don't get why fatigue doesn't restore over time outside of battles but health does? Shouldn't it be the other way round?

 

I appreciate the simplification of weight only applying to items that you equip, this was already in place in previous games (though my RPG soul screams that its not right, I am going to ignore it since I hate going back and forth to carry loot) But I feel that there are too many red herrings in Avadon. Why even bother giving paper or bags of meal weight if its not going to affect anything. I don't mind getting one of those mundane quest where you have to look for some worthless items and thinking "Damn, where was that limb that I saw before" but I don't recall getting any of that in the game. All the worthless items might as well be called trash A, trash B etc.

 

As for the monsters... well I don't really have any complaints... but I would like to see a bestiary that updates when you fight a creature (kinda like ff13) so I can check their resistance and plan my strategy. Don't have to put exact figures, something like partial, full etc.

 

Avadon is... different but not really different in the way that I like it. By the way, I bought the game.

[Marak]

Originally Posted By: Kiexcolo

The cool down for abilities is just way too long. There are periods of time when my sorceress/shaman had to use their physical ranged attack because all my spells were in cool down and the enemy is immune to my default magic attack (And I like to save my wands...)

This is a hard habit to break, but start training yourself now! When you get into these situations, use your Wands, your Scrolls, or one of your 2 dozen Cooldown-restoring Potions/Elixirs. Trust me. If you don't do this (and I didn't!), you'll find yourself swimming in a lake of 45 wands that no longer do viable damage because they're wands of *crappy spell that's only good in the midgame* and you're whipping them out for *late game boss fight* and accomplishing nothing.

The game throws more consumables at you than you can use unless you're playing poorly, getting unlucky, or are trying to use them up on purpose. Don't be me like and beat the last boss with 35 Battle Elixirs and 8 Restoration Elixirs and 7 Wands of Corruption and 12 Ring of Fire Scrolls. Because at that point, they never did you any good and you never get a chance to sell them.

[Dark.Fenix]

for the sorc even with all the "CD reduction" she get her auto atack still deals a big amounth of dmg.