Redbeard right or wrong [SPOILERS]

[Student of Trinity]

Is Redbeard morally right, or wrong? This is in some ways like the moral debates of Geneforge, but a bit more realistic.

 

A related question is whether Avadon, the game, gives fair representation to the moral issues in Avadon, the world.

 

My own view is that the game does not quite do justice to Redbeard. It shows you explicitly many of the ways in which the power of Avadon is abused by corrupt Hands, and of the awful punishments Redbeard has inflicted on people. It does not show you much of the ghastly chaos that these barbaric nations would surely inflict on each other if Avadon were not there.

 

My view is that if you think seriously about what the cultures of Lynaeus seem to be like, and try to imagine how things would be without the iron hand of Avadon, it's hard to believe they wouldn't be far worse than anything Avadon has done.

 

On the second question, I think Jeff has at least erred on the right side. Even if the game is kind of biased against Redbeard, the fact that the plot makes you work for him throughout the game provides a built-in counter-bias. You tend to identify with his regime.

 

So I don't know if Jeff hit it exactly right, but I think he took the right approach in having the story emphasize Redbeard's failings more than his merits. On balance I still think Redbeard is the man, to the point where I'm not sure I want to try fighting him even just to see how it goes.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

One major factor to consider in the portrayal of Redbeard and Avadon is that you get most of your missions from Miranda. Because she's grooming you to fight against Redbeard, she sends you on the missions most likely to make you question your loyalty to Avadon. This isn't to say that aren't numerous corrupt or tyrannical hands or sympathetic, relatively reasonable foes of the pact, or that Avadon isn't involved in some pretty nasty and heavy-handed business. Nevertheless, there's a good chance that the ratios of the aforementioned to loyal, altruistic hands and pact administrators, genuinely awful pact enemies, and good deeds on Avadon's part are probably skewed by Miranda's influence.

 

My opinion of Avadon is pretty positive. Yes, it's essentially a dictatorial police force, but the choices here aren't between dictatorship and free, democratic society (well, aside from tidbits we hear about Dharam, and that doesn't look feasible on a global scale). The choice is between one big, relatively stable dictatorship and a bunch of small, squabbling dictatorships. "The war of all against all," as it were.

 

As for Redbeard himself, my judgment is a bit less forgiving. Maybe no one is equal to the task of running an organization like Avadon, and I expect too much of him, but it's clear that he fails in significant ways. The system of patronage he has in place has made Avadon corrupt, and caused a great deal of resentment among the many who conclude that Avadon works not for the safety of the pact, but for the highest bidder. This is half-true at best, but the very fact that Avadon has acquired such a reputation is a dangerous liability. This becomes clear in the ending, when many people of the pact are reluctant to stand with Avadon in its time of need. Likewise, Redbeard fails to anticipate much of any of the conspiracy against Avadon, and seems cut off and excessively reliant on his subordinates for information...a serious problem when one of his most important lieutenants turns out to be a traitor. He even admits at the end of the game that he has become complacent, which admission is a point in his favor, though it would have been more of one if he'd recognized this before a Kellem noble nearly started a war with Holklanda, one of his closest subordinates defected to Tawon, and assassins killed a substantial number of his staff.

 

In conclusion, given that it's pretty obvious that Redbeard doesn't die in the canonical ending, I'm curious to see what he'll be like now that he's ceased resting on his laurels.

[Randomizer]

Avadon works through fear and assassination. Anyone that acts against the Pact and especially Avadon is questioned for information, but the Hands have the power to execute if they decide that bringing a suspect back alive isn't needed or doable with out repercussions.

 

You see all the time that Hands are abusing their power by taking tasks for money and helping out people without it being in the interests of the Pact. While you can right wrongs, there is no way to see if the actions are justified. Not to mention how low the bribes are for doing the dirty work of letting a "wrong doer" go and reporting that he or she was killed.

 

Avadon needs to be cleaned up, but Miranda is pushing you to destroy Redbeard to help the Farlands destroy the Pact. It's mostly greed for individual revenge or to push a nationalistic agenda of conquest.

[madrigan]

I think the question is more properly "Avadon right or wrong?" Though Redbeard has run Avadon for most of its existence, I think that his style and methods are most likely the product of the particular legal, political, and historical circumstances within which Avadon was created. The structure of and relationships between the major institutions -- Avadon, Council, and Pact -- severely constrain the approaches which any Master of Avadon can take. Avadon has been granted almost unlimited freedom to act as it sees fit in pursuit of its mission, the member nations are mutually hostile and culturally rigid, and the Council is apparently incapable of action. Given the power and responsibility that has been granted to the Master, and the fact that the alternative is much worse, I don't think Redbeard could do things very differently. This is unfortunate, but it is more a reflection of the game world as a whole than of Redbeard's character.

 

The moral issues that disturb me are not related to Avadon's overall mission, but to some of the smaller-scale details. The cultures of Lynaeus apparently consider torture morally justifiable. None of them like it when they're the victims, but few people seem to actually be against it. There is also a general acceptance of revenge killing and of open belligerence for its own sake. I think these sorts of things are immoral and corrosive, but again, Avadon's use of torture and extrajudicial killing isn't Redbeard's unconstrained choice, it is what's expected. Actually I'm not sure there is "judicial killing" in Lynaeus.

 

On the other hand, it appears that almost everybody thinks bribery is inherently wrong, so presumably it is simply Redbeard's choice to allow it go on. He may be expected to seize, kill, and torture people, but bribery is not acceptable. This seems odd to me, but the game world is quite different from our own. Representative democracy is not supported by the majority, even in principle. The Kva has a detailed legal code, but it doesn't seem like any of the other nations do. Even the people of the Wyrldrym, who appear to have the most egalitarian culture on the continent, are violent and vengeful.

 

So in short I am comfortable supporting Redbeard under the present circumstances, because I think the alternative is worse. However, I think that a three-hundred-years-in-the-future Lynaeus with the exact same system would be headed toward a general collapse.

[Student of Trinity]

That's a really excellent point, FnordCola. I didn't think of it at all. Miranda is quite possibly skewing what you see. Ha. Your other points are shrewd as well.

 

The torture thing disturbed me, too. But it's accurate: the idea that torture is horribly wrong is recent in the real world. And that has not eliminated it, even by supposedly enlightened western nations. Abu Ghraib. Waterboarding. Shidane Arone.

 

Sometimes the real world could use a few Hands of Avadon.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

I think a large part of the problem with the bribery is that it transcends, and potentially violates, Avadon's mandate and purpose. Most people in the pact see Avadon as a necessary evil, granted questionable powers in order to protect the pact by minimizing internal strife and keeping external invaders in check. This requires Avadon to play at internal politics to an extent, doing things like working with Duke Gryfyn on brokering peace, killing him when he betrayed that peace plan, and helping the Honored Forge clan supplant the Threespear. But when Avadon conducts assassinations and the like not for the sake of any clear benefit to the pact, but to increase the wealth of itself collectively and its individual members, one can see why people would be worried. Avadon goes from necessary evil to an assassins' guild available to the highest bidder, empowered with state funds and legal protection.

[Jerakeen]

Yes! That, in a nutshell, is what is wrong with Avadon, and why the Pact has to fail unless it can be turned around.

 

But once an organization has lost legitimacy in the eyes of the world, it's almost impossible to get it back.

[Alorael at Large]

It's of note that Avadon does not actually rely heavily on torture. Peering into people's minds, yes, but not torture. It's an obviously unpleasant and damaging process, but Avadon is interested in the truth most truth at the least cost.

 

Avadon serves an important purpose; I think there's broad agreement on that. The way it operates under Redbeard, however, is suspect. Bribes abound. Lies abound. There is no fairness.

 

Except I'm not sure that's true. We're seeing Avadon during a crisis. Resources are tight, attention is elsewhere, and there are bigger problems than petty corruption. In better days, who's to say how much attention is paid to Hands and their extrajudicial efforts? Redbeard happily acknowledges corruption, but he obviously does not condone it to an unlimited extent. Being a Hand, or Eye, or even Heart is a tough job; he allows for perks, but only if they don't threaten Avadon or the Pact.

 

And bribes? Well, people seem happy to pay for your help. Hands seem overextended as is; perhaps in less stressful times the have more leisure, but that's never really emphasized. People need some way to attract Hands to their minor tasks. Basically, doing these services is not in the Pact's interests, so it is not the Hands' job. They may choose to help, but they might need incentive, too. Is that so wrong?

 

Avadon's biggest crimes seem to be accepting bribery and embracing realpolitik. The latter might be what holds the Pact together; the former is, with enough oversight to keep it from getting out of hand, perhaps what attracts people to becoming Hands in the first place, what motivates them to help people and build good will, and what eventually solves problems too minor for Avadon's official attention but too major for local players.

 

—Alorael, who isn't sure Redbeard or Avadon are any worse than a number of real-world corrupt bureaucracies. They may not be highly efficient, and they may not be loved, but they've worked for a very long time. A better solution can be imagined, but it's not clear that a better solution could come from Lynaeus. And Redbeard, for all his faults, recognizes the situation for what it is. He doesn't make Avadon the best it could be, given its limitations, but he certainly keeps it from becoming the worst it might become unchecked.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

I think the issues with bribery go deeper than that. First, it's evident that numerous people in the pact resent Avadon for catering to those who can pay, rather than helping the people of the pact equally. I think a lot of what you say about Hands needing incentive to do dirty and potentially lethal work outside of their main purview is true. Many in Lynaeus don't see it that way, though. Is their view short-sighted and unfair compared to ours? Probably, but that doesn't change the fact that their resentment erodes support for Avadon to a major, dangerous degree.

 

It also bears noting that the services for which hands receive money generally don't involve getting cats out of trees or helping nice little old ladies cross the street. Not all of them are morally suspect, but many involve assassination, abduction, theft or confiscation of property, and other assorted skullduggery. Sure, the clients for such tasks would probably find people to do their dirty work even if there weren't Hands to do so, but the fact that Avadon is implicated in such work outside of its obligation to the pact is both morally suspect and a PR nightmare.

 

I still think the world is better for the presence of Avadon, but it does less good than it might because of its corruption, and also endangers its own continued existence.

[Randomizer]

Well you see it as soon as you reach the Kva. The Pact soldiers aren't doing the job of keeping up will all the wild animals and bandits, so Hands are taking up some of those tasks for money. No one likes it, but with resources stretched to limit. this is the result.

[madrigan]

If Avadon is going to be stingy with equipment, then it's inevitable that the Hands are going to take side jobs, all or some of which represent bribery depending on your point of view. I know there's an in-game explanation for why I have to buy or find most of my own gear, but I don't think I buy the explanation. If you underpay or undersupply your elite agents, they are going to beg borrow or steal in order to get by. Has any real-world military or government agency operated in this way, when it was operating properly? These days some American soldiers have to buy some of their own gear, but that is seen as an organizational failure, not as a way to motivate the troops. I know that in some ancient and medieval cultures soldiers had to supply their own weapons and armor, but that meant you had to be affluent to be a soldier. Avadon recruits people from all economic classes to be Hands, and then won't give them all the gear they need. It would be more surprising if there wasn't much bribery.

[Dintiradan]

Originally Posted By: madrigan

Has any real-world military or government agency operated in this way, when it was operating properly? These days some American soldiers have to buy some of their own gear, but that is seen as an organizational failure, not as a way to motivate the troops.

This is known as scrounging, and it's been around forever. Units from developed nations are less likely to be severely under-supplied in one area, but even so, there's a good chance they'll need someone unexpected during the course of their mission, and it's a lot easier to get something through local channels than wait for something through official channels (and risk not getting approved).

You see a lot of resource swapping with UN missions, where each nation's troops are outfitted differently. Some units are over-supplied in areas where others are under-supplied.

In fact, I remember Jeff making a post somewhere about how this happens between different Marine battalions in Iraq. He was addressing the very complaint others in this thread have: that characters saving the world should expect handouts from people they meet. My google-fu failed in locating this post... wasn't able to find it on his blog, this forum, or in "The View from the Bottom" articles.

(But yes, the primary reason why handouts rarely happen in Jeff's games is because they're RPGs and you have to loot your stuff instead.)

[madrigan]

That's true, I recall reading that some units in Vietnam had a designated guy who was particularly good at finding things like this. But the base equipment Avadon gives Hands is like the U.S. Marine Corps sending their infantry out wearing baseball caps, armed only with revolvers, and then expecting them to scrounge or buy rifles, ammo, and transport to Iraq. Avadon's practice is so extreme that I don't think it can be compared to the RW phenomenon you're describing. The amount of resources necessary to train a hand must be very large, it makes no sense to underequip them so severely. They do get infinite arrows and shuriken, though.

 

And Avadon doesn't consider the Hands to be underequiped. It's intentional. That is quite different from RW military units where a unit is underequiped because of cost or incompetence. The idea of giving your elite troops inadequate gear as a matter of policy seems so ridiculous that it takes me out of the fantasy a bit. Really the only Spiderweb games I've played where it makes sense for the characters to have lame gear are A1 and maybe A4 and G4.

[Fael]

Originally Posted By: Dintiradan

In fact, I remember Jeff making a post somewhere about how this happens between different Marine battalions in Iraq. He was addressing the very complaint others in this thread have: that characters saving the world should expect handouts from people they meet. My google-fu failed in locating this post... wasn't able to find it on his blog, this forum, or in "The View from the Bottom" articles.

I remembered it was on the blog, which allowed me to scan through titles until I found it:
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/12/why-people-on-your-side-are-always.html.

[Alorael at Large]

No, consider the difference between good and bad gear and the cost of good and bad gear. A sword is a sword. A better sword is nice, but not essential. It was the practice of medieval militaries to give foot soldiers very basic equipment and let them supplement it themselves if they wanted. Good idea? Probably not, but they did it.

 

Then consider resources. The difference in cost between a crummy rifle and a really good rifle is noticeable but hardly crippling. The difference in effectiveness is appreciable, but it's not a matter of orders of magnitude. The difference between an plain iron sword and an enchanted sword can be huge. The cost difference is also huge. For analogy to the real world, look at the difference in cost between boiled, hardened leather and plate mail. Equipping your army with plate mail is like giving all your soldiers tanks. It costs way too much.

 

That said, Avadon does underequip you. They could, at the very least, outfit you with a complete set of clothes. You have to scrounge for shoes and pants and, sometimes, shirts!

 

—Alorael, who thought some other games justified your lack of resources. In A2, Avernum doesn't give you equipment because Avernum is poor, fighting a war, and you're in a backwater fort away from the action. In A3, the first party sent to the surface got all the good stuff. In A5, there's supposed to be equipment for you, but your mission is sabotaged. As Celts in Nethergate, you shouldn't have equipment: Celts are at their most dangerous when naked.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

I have mixed feelings on the equipment issue. On one hand, your point about plate armor and such is certainly true. On the other, Avadon is less an army and more an elite special forces unit. Who also don't get tanks...but I think that may be where the analogy breaks down. Anyway, point is, they're reasonably wealthy and few in number, meaning the amount of money per hand for equipment would be much higher than the amount of money per soldier in most armies.

 

On the subject of resource scarcity in the early game, I think G1 and G3 also justify it pretty well. In the former, the PC is a newly graduated Shaper of no particular importance, on an assignment of no particular importance, and even such equipment as they do get is damaged/lost in the wreck. In the latter, the PC is a Shaper student in a destroyed academy who doesn't even reach proper bastions of Shaper power until 1/3 of the way through the game, and even then there's a war on and resources go more toward battle-trained Shapers as opposed to random apprentices.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: FnordCola

Anyway, point is, they're reasonably wealthy and few in number, meaning the amount of money per hand for equipment would be much higher than the amount of money per soldier in most armies.

Although we don't see very many Hands, many conversations indicate that there are quite a few Hands, as well as other hired hands. Let's also not forget Avadon's payments to other allies, as well as the cost of maintaining the fortress.

Also, while you seem to be on pretty important missions, you start out as a total nobody, and your companions aren't exactly favored soldiers. No one really cares for you enough not to rip you off.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

I don't doubt that there are many hands. The game makes pretty clear that there isn't a literal army, though. It's hard to say for certain, but the fortress might accommodate a thousand people, maybe less (and it's clear that Avadon staff maintain rooms for those who are out on missions), and that's including hands, eyes, hearts, and guards/servants/other miscellaneous personnel. There might be six or seven hundred hands, there might only be a couple hundred. This in comparison to the nations of the pact, each of which maintains an army of ten thousand for the pact, plus whatever other armies they keep for their own benefit, and their internal security forces.

[Necris Omega]

While this could be an issue of the question of Avadon, the concept and practice of it as an organization, the topic seems to focus more on Redbeard directly, so let me keep to that alone.

 

Is Redbeard right or wrong in his policies? I think it goes hit or miss, some cases more justified than others.

 

Heart Miranda - While I'm fine with the idea of executing someone who attempted to assassinate you, keeping Miranda on and turning her into one of his most trusted allies, only to be blindsided by her betrayal at the end... he pretty much walked right into this one. It might have been merciful, but that really showed a lack of foresight on Redbeard's part.

 

Point goes against Redbeard.

 

The Threespear - While practical, whenever you have one political organization engineering the coup and downfall of another for lack of support, you're going to have a severe ethics crisis. Was it Avadon's place to manipulate a country like that? "All for the greater good" you might say. In the end, I don't buy it.

 

Point goes against Redbeard.

 

Zhossa Mindtaker - While his diplomacy here was severely off, I'm inclined to agree with the idea of NOT assigning resources to this. He should have handled the issue with far more grace, but in the end, it was still a drake, and hadn't really posed much of a threat to the Pact or Avadon's role. Sure, he should have assured Nathalie that it would be taken care of once the current crisis was handled, and that if she wanted she could lead the effort, but at this time there were just bigger things he needed the hands to deal with.

 

Point goes for Redbeard.

 

Pardoning Cahil – Maybe I'm just not practical enough, but murder cannot be erased due to practicality. In the end, his message says that you can do whatever you want to Avadon, so long as your contributions outweigh your detractions in the end. Once again, the end justifies the means, another grizzly sentiment. Further, I'd argue that the longtime damage posed to Avadon's reputation would be greater than the one time benefit of one spy's knowledge.

 

Point goes against Redbeard.

 

The Wyldrylm – I really see no justification here other than Redbeard's prejudices and frailty. Turning a blind eye towards modes of discontent within the Pact is the direct opposite of his job. His failings here were pretty obvious, and his dismissive sentiment against the Wyldrylm makes it even worse.

 

Two points against Redbeard.

 

Castle Vebeaux – While the disaster that occurred there was pretty dramatic, I have to give the man credit for trying to stabilize the Pact between the two rival nations. He had agents there to keep him informed, and he had an active hand in the whole proceedings. Things went wrong, but it wasn't his fault.

 

Point goes for Redbeard

 

Final Score? -3. From what little we've seen, Redbeard is… not fit for leadership. Too many mistakes, too little foresight, too quick to press for the most aggressive or undiplomatic solution, and not enough merits to forgive his more ethically questionable qualities. Yeah, his beard is pretty awesome, but it isn't enough. Sorry, but the pirateyiest named fort commander really should go.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Necris Omega

ure, he should have assured Nathalie that it would be taken care of once the current crisis was handled, and that if she wanted she could lead the effort, but at this time there were just bigger things he needed the hands to deal with.

Nathalie doesn't care at all what Redbeard could have said. No matter how much he could have promised her regarding that drake, she would have gone after it on her own. Redbeard isn't responsible for his agent's childlike ambition. She needs to learn some control. Heck, maybe Redbeard should be punishing her!

Originally Posted By: Necris Omega

In the end, his message says that you can do whatever you want to Avadon, so long as your contributions outweigh your detractions in the end.

I was quite disturbed by this quest line. I don't think that your responses were always the best. (Then again, that problem plagued me with all 4 character quests.) So, Redbeard's note says:

Code:

I pardon you for your crimes, as long as you avoid my servants. Hide, creature. Cross me again, and you will be brought before me.

Well, it seems to be that Cahil has failed at avoiding servants. My interpretation of this indicates that I now get to bring Cahil into Redbeard for murder of hands and failing to stay hidden. But is this an option? Unfortunately not.

[Jerakeen]

Yeah, what kind of a pardon is that, anyway? Cahil should have known that it was no pardon at all.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

I thought Redbeard's handling of the whole Nathalie situation was more than a bit incompetent. Not because I think he's in the wrong, but incompetent more pragmatically speaking. He keeps a talented but unstable hand back at Avadon because he and his advisers don't think she's together enough to do Avadon's work. Fair enough: I think she acquitted herself well on the missions that didn't require much subtlety, but the 'beard didn't know that in advance, and reasonably erred on the side of caution. What seems obviously foolish is that instead of altering her outlook, or even simply dismissing her and sending her home, Avadon's leadership leave her around to gather dust and resentment. She's not a dire threat in the way that Dheless or Miranda are, but it's still sloppy to allow her to gradually turn into an enemy of Avadon within the fortress itself, and without any evidence that she's more closely monitored than the other hands. And of course, this comes back to bite 'beard in the ass in the ending in which the PC takes over from him.

[Necris Omega]

Originally Posted By: Master1

Nathalie doesn't care at all what Redbeard could have said. No matter how much he could have promised her regarding that drake, she would have gone after it on her own. Redbeard isn't responsible for his agent's childlike ambition. She needs to learn some control. Heck, maybe Redbeard should be punishing her!

I'm not going to defend the hot headed mage mind you, but Redbeard's handling of the situation seemed both rash and arguably out of character.

Hear me out on this. This Drake was part of the friction between two countries whose peace was part of his personal pet project and why Avadon was left to go to hell. Its actions and intervention could easily have complicated relations between Kellemderiel and Holklanda, especially with how the Kellem soldiers ended out there while Monitor Shingraz just kinda… stayed behind.

Did he honestly think that the Drake wouldn't have been the source of more complications in the long run? Yeah, you can say Avadon certainly had more important things to do, but the Drake did need to be dealt with in the long run.

That Adadon had other things to worry about, which is true, doesn't mean that the Drake shouldn't at least have made the to do list. And yes, Nathalie probably would have been reckless and stupid none the less, but had Redbeard not have been so dismissive about the matter he would have come off smelling a whole lot cleaner.

Originally Posted By: Master1

I was quite disturbed by this quest line. I don't think that your responses were always the best. (Then again, that problem plagued me with all 4 character quests.) So, Redbeard's note says:

Code:

I pardon you for your crimes, as long as you avoid my servants. Hide, creature. Cross me again, and you will be brought before me.

Well, it seems to be that Cahil has failed at avoiding servants. My interpretation of this indicates that I now get to bring Cahil into Redbeard for murder of hands and failing to stay hidden. But is this an option? Unfortunately not.

Eh… it's true that the pardoning of Cahil was about as flimsy as the paper it was written on, it's more of a matter of principle in my eyes. I guess one could argue that by NOT telling any of the Hands that this guy was to be left alone, and NOT doing anything more than giving the guy his autograph, Redbeard was just setting him up to be liquidated in the long run.

Oh well. Good riddance to the both of them.