App store version is 1.0.2, $5 cheaper.

[Clocknova]

What's the deal with the Mac App Store version being a version ahead (1.0.2) and $5 cheaper? I feel cheated.

[Soul of Wit]

Originally Posted By: Clocknova

What's the deal with the Mac App Store version being a version ahead (1.0.2) and $5 cheaper? I feel cheated.

Seriously?

I'm sure that the 1.0.2 version will be available on this site soon.

As for the price difference? The non-MAS version allows me to have access to the nuts and bolts of the game. For example, I can make those hidden switches glow brighter or puff smoke with a small tweak to a script. A lot of the useful posts on this site would be harder to come by if those writing them were restricted to the MAS version.

Another advantage of the non-MAS version is that I'd already played through it twice before the MAS version hit the streets.

[Enobarbus World]

You can't open the package of Mac App Store applications?

[Randomizer]

Jeff said that the Mac App Store version uses checksums to prevent editing the game to add player modifications.

[VCH]

I guess I'll be buying Jeff's games from the App store from now on. There's no point in paying more money than I need to.

 

 

If I was a windows user, I would be upset at paying more than a Mac user.

 

The price drop must be a request from Apple.

[Soul of Wit]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

You can't open the package of Mac App Store applications?

[slaps forehead] I guess you can! Perhaps I was thinking ahead to a future "Macverse" where the apps might be locked into an impenetrable layer. Not that I'm predicting such a thing.

Edit: Thanks, Randomizer. Checksums! I knew there was a catch. [Partially un-slaps forehead]

[Soul of Wit]

Originally Posted By: VCH

I guess I'll be buying Jeff's games from the App store from now on. There's no point in paying more money than I need to.


If I was a windows user, I would be upset at paying more than a Mac user.

The price drop must be a request from Apple.

The reason for the price difference is more likely to be one of:

• Perceived lower value with MAS apps (e.g.: the false belief that you can't get a demo--click on the vendor's website, you complainers)
• An enticement to non-hardcore Spiderweb fans (i.e.: most Mac users with the latest version of Mac OSX)

As for complaints from Windows users, welcome to the Mac user's world. It's usually the Mac port at top dollar while the Windows version (out for a while) is already in the bargain bin.

[Enobarbus World]

There have always -- at least, since Geneforge 1 -- been licensed-environment versions of SW games. You could buy most of the Geneforge series at a slight discount from various website stores that require you to be online to play.

 

The Mac App Store is a significantly less restrictive environment, but I'd still rather have the regular application. When I test mechanics stuff, I need to be able to edit scripts once in a while.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

There have always -- at least, since Geneforge 1 -- been licensed-environment versions of SW games. You could buy most of the Geneforge series at a slight discount from various website stores that require you to be online to play.

I seem to recall picking up G1 at RealArcade over a half-decade ago for some ridiculously cheap price- $6.99 IIRC. Now I think I must have gotten it confused with some other game, because I can't imagine Jeff allowing a distributor to sell his game at a quarter of his listed price.

(In case you're wondering why I didn't register here then, it was because I had just discovered the PC ports of all the classic Sonic games and couldn't really transition from rushing across Emerald Hill to plodding around a mystery island hitting up dudes in robes for a boat. So I abandoned it. My loss.)

[Enobarbus World]

RealArcade apparently involves monthly membership fees rather than full prices for purchasing games. $6.99 appears to be the current price there. But I think the games stop working if you stop paying the monthly fees.

 

Also, I wasn't wondering, because — oh, never mind.

[VCH]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

There have always -- at least, since Geneforge 1 -- been licensed-environment versions of SW games. You could buy most of the Geneforge series at a slight discount from various website stores that require you to be online to play.

The Mac App Store is a significantly less restrictive environment, but I'd still rather have the regular application. When I test mechanics stuff, I need to be able to edit scripts once in a while.

But most users don't edit scripts.

And I would definitely feel cheated if I bought a game from his website, then found out I could have bought the same thing cheaper at the App-store. His site should say "if you don't want to pay $25.00 go to the appstore.

Also, the other retail options sound horrible in comparison to the App-store.

[Enobarbus World]

Yeah, the potential for feeling cheated is a problem even if it's not a big difference.

 

I bet the MAS's price specifications didn't surface until SW submitted the game to them, at which point it had already been for sale outside the MAS.

[Randomizer]

Jeff didn't finish testing the MAS version until a few weeks after the game was released here. Also the MAS version had to be written using Cocoa and the Spiderweb version used Carbon so it would run on older Mac operating systems (10.3.9).

[madrigan]

I don't mind paying an extra $5 for this game, especially if it's a version with less restricted files. It's a bargain at either price, frankly. Unless your financial situation is such that a $5 difference actually, really hurts you, I don't see the problem with paying $5 more to support an indy game directly.

 

I bought the latest Drive-By Truckers CD a few weeks ago. I haven't listened to to it yet, but that's not the point. The point is that the world needs more great rock bands. I subscribe to Harper's. Do I read every word of every issue? No, I don't. But I believe that magazines like Harper's are important, so the least I can do is subscribe.

 

Similarly, I believe that it should be possible for independent game developers to make their living creating games I like. Chasing the lowest price for everything isn't always wise, or always ethical.

[Spidweb]

Apple does not allow App Store applications (Mac or iOS) to be modified by anyone but the developer. Code is baked in to prevent any altered or corrupt application from launching.

 

The v1.0.2 thing is a mistake on my part. Should have been v1.0.1. I screwed up, and the App Store version will always be ..1 ahead of the other versions.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[othersean]

Originally Posted By: VCH

And I would definitely feel cheated if I bought a game from his website, then found out I could have bought the same thing cheaper at the App-store.

Oh, FFS -- it's $5. Skip the drink the next 5 times you eat at McDonald's. I'm hardly rich, but I don't mind the $5, and would rather give $(X+5) to Jeff than $(X*0.7) to him and $(X*0.3) to Apple.

[Txgangsta]

Totally glad I didn't get it yet.

[Enobarbus World]

Originally Posted By: Spidweb

The v1.0.2 thing is a mistake on my part. Should have been v1.0.1. I screwed up, and the App Store version will always be ..1 ahead of the other versions.

Couldn't you just skip a number on the next non-App Store version, so that they re-sync at 1.0.3 or 1.0.4?

[Alorael at Large]

Any reason for the pricing difference?

 

—Alorael, who imagines the cheated feeling going both ways. Imagine paying for the game and then learning that you bought the version that doesn't let you add cool character editors, or workarounds, or whatever people script in.

[Clocknova]

Wow. Then I'll be avoiding the App Store from now on. My money, my software; I'll do what I want with it.

[VCH]

Originally Posted By: othersean

Originally Posted By: VCH

And I would definitely feel cheated if I bought a game from his website, then found out I could have bought the same thing cheaper at the App-store.

Oh, FFS -- it's $5. Skip the drink the next 5 times you eat at McDonald's. I'm hardly rich, but I don't mind the $5, and would rather give $(X+5) to Jeff than $(X*0.7) to him and $(X*0.3) to Apple.

But who pays more for a loaf of bread if they don't have to?

The ability to edit scripts is not something I care about, so to me both games are identical, yet priced differently. I could buy a whole sack of potatoes for $5.00, something far more important than giving Jeff a few more dollars. He makes good-money as is, he's not a charity case. I'm not saying he shouldn't do well, I'm saying that I feel no moral obligation to feed his family.

[Student of Trinity]

In olden times, hunting was an occupation. The thrill of the hunt, the exercise of skill, the acclamation of the tribe, all that. But nowadays most of us have other things to do, and not so much time for hunting. We're happy to buy slabs of meat in plastic wrap from the supermarket. And we don't really miss the opportunity to carve out those tender morsels of moose spleen for ourselves.

 

So it is with computer programs. There were days when you subscribed to magazines that would print BASIC programs for you to type into your own machine. More recently, you might trawl the internet for shareware sites, hoping to pick up some hidden gem. But that's all on its way out. The sheer convenience of being able to get everything you want from one or two known places — attractively packaged, clearly arranged, guaranteed safe to consume — will trump even price differences.

[othersean]

Originally Posted By: VCH

But who pays more for a loaf of bread if they don't have to?

Everyone who shops for bread without clipping coupons, or chooses a loaf without calculating its calories (or oz.) per dollar compared to the others. I don't understand the $5 difference, and would prefer that they be priced the same, but if $5 actually matters to you, you probably have needs more pressing than computer games.

[nikki.]

I'm actually feeling a little insulted/annoyed by everybody who's saying "if $5 is so important, you've got more pressing issues than computer games", or similar things.

 

Suppose you want to go see a movie. There are two cinemas, both exactly the same distance from your home, and both built exactly the same, with the same quality viewing experience. One is showing a movie for $7, and the other is showing it at $8. Which cinema would you go and watch the movie at? If you're answering the one which charges $7, than congratulations, you aren't an idiot. You're also, unfortunately worrying too much about that $1, and apparently, because you want to save a little money where you can, shouldn't be going to see movies.

 

Put it another way - on your way to work, you usually buy a newspaper, which costs $1.50. Today, there is another pile of newspapers standing right next to the one you usually buy the paper from, but is selling the exact same copy at $1.30. It'd be foolish to pay more for that same item.

 

Now, I get that some people want the extra customization that the more expensive copy has, and they're paying the premium for that. I also get that people want all of their payment to go to Jeff, supporting the indie developer, and all that, and that's fine too. But for the majority of users, the products are identical, and $5 is your lunch, bus fare to work, or even $5 off the next game they buy from Jeff. Why should people pay more?

 

(As an aside, I will be buying my copy directly from Jeff, because I want to be able to play on both OS X and Windows, and I'm happy to pay the extra to do so. If I were going to play just on one system though, of course I'd save the £~3 and buy from the app store.

[madrigan]

In real life, people make purchasing decisions based on factors other than price, even when the products are identical. Some people choose to go to a locally owned shop for a variety of products, even though it costs more than the Target or Wal-Mart, because they want to support local businesses and because it is better for the local economy. Some people buy games from Boards and Bits instead of amazon, because B&B is an independent game seller and amazon is a huge corporation which engages in a variety of questionable practices. Some people refuse to deal with certain businesses because of a whole range of political reasons. And some people are not going to feel "cheated" because an independent game development company with three employees charges a little less for a less flexible product at a prominent online storefront.

[nikki.]

Originally Posted By: madrigan

In real life, people make purchasing decisions based on factors other than price, even when the products are identical. Some people choose to go to a locally owned shop for a variety of products, even though it costs more than the Target or Wal-Mart, because they want to support local businesses and because it is better for the local economy. Some people buy games from Boards and Bits instead of amazon, because B&B is an independent game seller and amazon is a huge corporation which engages in a variety of questionable practices. Some people refuse to deal with certain businesses because of a whole range of political reasons. And some people are not going to feel "cheated" because an independent game development company with three employees charges a little less for a less flexible product at a prominent online storefront.

Originally Posted By: Me

Now, I get that some people want the extra customization that the more expensive copy has, and they're paying the premium for that. I also get that people want all of their payment to go to Jeff, supporting the indie developer, and all that, and that's fine too.

And again, I didn't say that everybody was - I certainly don't feel cheated paying more. It was more the tone of the argument than the actual argument that caused umbrage, and perhaps I should've made that clearer. I still stand by my points though.

[Soul of Wit]

The extra $5 is to play the game when it first comes out. It's that simple.

 

Would anyone feel cheated if Jeff put the game on sale at some point? You know, like a once-a-year sale on all SW games?

 

Complaining about price changes is just as silly here as it is in the iTunes App Store. The developer charged $5 for the game when I bought it, and now it's on sale for a dollar. Tiny violin...

 

Time value of money. Enjoying the game sooner has value. If you don't agree then wait for the sale.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: Soul of Wit

Would anyone feel cheated if Jeff put the game on sale at some point? You know, like a once-a-year sale on all SW games?

Complaining about price changes is just as silly here as it is in the iTunes App Store. The developer charged $5 for the game when I bought it, and now it's on sale for a dollar. Tiny violin...

Heh. This reminds me of my time working end-user tech support and customer service. "I bought my [electronic equipment] two months ago, and now there's a new version! I would have waited!" "Why are you having a sale for new subscribers? Shouldn't you be doing something for the existing customers?"

[macdude22]

Originally Posted By: Nikki.

(As an aside, I will be buying my copy directly from Jeff, because I want to be able to play on both OS X and Windows, and I'm happy to pay the extra to do so. If I were going to play just on one system though, of course I'd save the £~3 and buy from the app store.

In my mind this would be a great justification for the "discount" on the App Store. You're only getting licensing for the Macintosh version. Boosh, less perceived value in my mind. As I occasionally play these things on a PC in the basement and I'm obsessive compulsive about physical disks I'll continue to buy direct from the source.

Of course I'd rather Jeff finagle getting his games on Steam as far as digital distribution goes. SteamPlay apps go a long way in a lot of folks minds.

[Clocknova]

What exactly is it that stops one from altering the files in the App Store version? Can't you just click 'unlock' or something? It seems to me that if the file is on my computer then I can change it. I've never met any form of file protection that couldn't be circumvented relatively easily.

[jlsgaladriel]

@Clocknova -- I gather it's possible to circumvent chucksum integrity-checking, but while I'm perfectly comfortable editing scripts, that's a whole different level of file modification I'm not comfortable with. I'm happy buying directly from spiderweb.

 

If the different pricing structures are annoying users, though, it might behoove Jeff to link first to his own servers for the full version, and then below that to the app store, with a note that this is a more narrowly targeted version.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Clocknova

What exactly is it that stops one from altering the files in the App Store version? Can't you just click 'unlock' or something? It seems to me that if the file is on my computer then I can change it. I've never met any form of file protection that couldn't be circumvented relatively easily.

You technically could alter the files, but from what I understand, the game won't run unless every file has the exact same file size (i.e. number of characters) as before. So you could change a few statistics, but you couldn't create items or edit dialog scripts or alter encounters or anything.

[Clocknova]

I see. I read what Jeff said about Apple's reasoning, but I still find it rather odious and heavy-handed. I really don't like the direction Apple is starting to take on these matters. Still, I'm sure it won't take hackers more skilled than I to find a way to circumvent these protections.

[Enobarbus World]

Originally Posted By: Dantius

You technically could alter the files, but from what I understand, the game won't run unless every file has the exact same file size (i.e. number of characters) as before. So you could change a few statistics, but you couldn't create items or edit dialog scripts or alter encounters or anything.

No. A checksum is different from a file size. In a simple checksum, you add up the value of all the bytes (ie, the ASCII values for all the characters in the file). The result is stored somewhere in the file, and if the newly calculated value is different from the stored one, the checksum fails. This makes it very, very difficult to edit anything unless you know EXACTLY how the checksum is calculated.

[VCH]

For me the biggest problem is that I didn't know I could buy Jeff's games from other retailers. He doesn't make that clear on his website, and maybe he shouldn't. But I always just assumed I could only get Spidweb games directly from his site. If I had known there was going to be an appstore version, I would have waited for it.

 

Originally Posted By: Soul of Wit

 

Would anyone feel cheated if Jeff put the game on sale at some point? You know, like a once-a-year sale on all SW games?

 

Complaining about price changes is just as silly here as it is in the iTunes App Store. The developer charged $5 for the game when I bought it, and now it's on sale for a dollar. Tiny violin...

 

Time value of money. Enjoying the game sooner has value. If you don't agree then wait for the sale.

 

 

You know people get really pissed off when new products are released, then within a month are dropped in price. It does happen, but it's just not a good way to foster goodwill towards your company. If I remember correctly, Apple was forced to offer credit for the price drop on the original iphone. It's the time frame of the price cut that matters.

 

Jeff's game sales normally occur well after a game is released.

 

 

[Enobarbus World]

Okay, here's the real problem with the "I feel cheated" argument: SW's famous, money-back-for-any-reason policy:

Originally Posted By: www.spiderwebsoftware.com

Money-Back Guarantee!

 

If you don't like our game, we don't want your money.

 

We have a no-questions-asked One Year Money-back Guarantee. Game stops working? You wake up one morning and realize that it sucks? You decide that you hate us personally, and our adorable children too? Money back within one year.

 

You might think, "Hmmm. I wonder if people ever buy the game, play it through, and demand a refund." The answer is: No. This has never happened. You know why? Because our customers are awesome people.

There's nothing stopping you from asking for a refund and then buying the Mac App Store version instead.

 

Personally, that seems petty. But I know that when I was 12 and $5 was a big deal, I might have done it.

[Alorael at Large]

You could even try claiming that you like the game but are angry about the price and demand a $5 refund. Jeff's a pretty nice guy, curmudgeonly presentation aside. You could probably make it work.

 

—Alorael, who is most convinced by customer service. If anything goes wrong with his registrations, he knows Spiderweb will fix it. He's asked for plenty of replacement registration codes and there's been no delay and no hassle. The App store has some security built in, but if things go wrong or you lose access to your account, well, you end up paying again. That's $5 of insurance.

[othersean]

Originally Posted By: All the VAgaries of Space & Time

Alorael, who is most convinced by customer service.

Having dealt with both Jeff and Apple's tech "support" in relation to the same faulty hard drive, I have to say that the difference is worth more than $5. (Apple tech support is abysmal and condescending unless you take your machine into an Apple store and talk to the genius bar people.)

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: othersean

unless you take your machine into an Apple store and talk to the guys that are okay but not great with computers and will charge you about 5x the cost of a part in labor fees.)

FYT

[VCH]

Originally Posted By: All the VAgaries of Space & Time

You could even try claiming that you like the game but are angry about the price and demand a $5 refund. Jeff's a pretty nice guy, curmudgeonly presentation aside. You could probably make it work.

—Alorael, who is most convinced by customer service. If anything goes wrong with his registrations, he knows Spiderweb will fix it. He's asked for plenty of replacement registration codes and there's been no delay and no hassle. The App store has some security built in, but if things go wrong or you lose access to your account, well, you end up paying again. That's $5 of insurance.

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

Okay, here's the real problem with the "I feel cheated" argument: SW's famous, money-back-for-any-reason policy:

Originally Posted By: www.spiderwebsoftware.com

Money-Back Guarantee!

If you don't like our game, we don't want your money.

We have a no-questions-asked One Year Money-back Guarantee. Game stops working? You wake up one morning and realize that it sucks? You decide that you hate us personally, and our adorable children too? Money back within one year.

You might think, "Hmmm. I wonder if people ever buy the game, play it through, and demand a refund." The answer is: No. This has never happened. You know why? Because our customers are awesome people.

There's nothing stopping you from asking for a refund and then buying the Mac App Store version instead.

Personally, that seems petty. But I know that when I was 12 and $5 was a big deal, I might have done it.

No, I like Jeff too much to ask for the money back. I'll just have to be more careful where I buy the game next time.

[othersean]

Originally Posted By: Master1

FYT

WTF? You don't have to buy anything from them -- they'll try to diagnose your problem for free -- and IME they're reasonably competent. YMMV, etc.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Perhaps I was a tad critical. I have had some help, like when my hard drive failed. The guy plugged it into the server to see if he could get it to show up, and then he recommended some drive recovery places (not worth the $600+ for some school assignments and music). However, after they've diagnosed your problem, the fees they lay on you to replace parts are exorbitant. Our power supply was bad, and I diagnosed it in maybe maybe 5 minutes and replaced it for just the cost of a new part, maybe $70. They're time fee alone would likely have been $200.

 

I guess, then, that my beef lies with Apple, and not their "geniuses" in particular.

[Alorael at Large]

Huh. I've taken my Macbook Pro in to the store with a bad battery, a broken video card, and damage from being dropped, all out of warranty. I haven't paid for any of it.

 

—Alorael, who has mostly been told that the problems were manufacturing errors. He's never heard of manufacturing errors being free to replace after a computer is dropped several years after the warranty is up.

[Soul of Wit]

Originally Posted By: Clocknova

What exactly is it that stops one from altering the files in the App Store version? Can't you just click 'unlock' or something? It seems to me that if the file is on my computer then I can change it. I've never met any form of file protection that couldn't be circumvented relatively easily.

It's a checksum scheme built into all MAS apps. You can easily alter the file. You then need to generate a matching checksum. Knowing Apple, that probably lies somewhere between trivial and moderate hacking. It's not worth $5 to me, but some like a challenge.

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: othersean

Originally Posted By: All the VAgaries of Space & Time

Alorael, who is most convinced by customer service.

Having dealt with both Jeff and Apple's tech "support" in relation to the same faulty hard drive, I have to say that the difference is worth more than $5.

Easily. I've never dealt with Apple's tech support, though (never owned any of their products either), so I really can't compare.

Quote:

(Apple tech support is abysmal and condescending unless you take your machine into an Apple store and talk to the genius bar people.)

So I've heard. A friend of mine needed something replaced on his Mac computer, and they treated him like they were doing him some kind of favor simply by answering the phone and talking to him.

[Niemand]

I have just had an experience rather similar to what Alorael describes: My laptop's wireless card wasn't working, along with a couple of minor issues. It was still under the tail end of the extended warranty, but Apple replaced for free: the wireless card, optical drive, logic board, keyboard and entire case. The only things wrong with the keyboard and case were normal wear-and-tear and some small dents from me dropping it. I'm also not certain how much the logic board was actually implicated in any of the problems. They gave me well over a thousand dollars worth of parts, and for rather nebulous reasons (although the parts in question are so old as to be virtually useless in general, I suppose).

 

As for calling Apple Support on the phone. . . I had never tried it before today, but there was a miscommunication about getting my computer back to me, which lead to me calling the local retail store to find out if they knew anything. I can't say anything meaningful about the quality of the actual service since after forty minutes on hold I had to hang up to go catch a bus. However, when I later wandered into the store (without an appointment) I left again, in under ten minutes, laptop in hand.

[Dintiradan]

Quality of large business's services vary from location to location. News at eleven.

[Enobarbus World]

Did you just... wait. Did you just say NEWS AT ELEVEN?!

 

That's practically Beetlejuice territory here.

[RDS]

You all forgot the best thing about the MAS version..... it useable on 5 Macs.

[A less presumptuous name.]

If you get the CD from Jeff, you can put it on as many macs as you'd like. You can also email Jeff and get a new code for any new/additional machine on which you would like the game.