A mild dissapointment

[Masquerade]

I was exited to pick up this game because i was looking forwards to detailed characters that jeff likes to weave into his games, and in many ways it surprased my expectations. The world was exeptionally well designed and the cultures of the different nations are intricate and engaging, but my character does not belong in it which is intensly frustrating and disappointing. The NPCs have backstories and nationalities but my character has none, he has no nationality or even a religion and the NPCs do not react to hima t all, i had thought at least that Shima might react to me beig a shadowwalker but the conversation made it seem as if my character was unaware what a shadowwalker was regardless of him obviously being one which is a step down from jeffs usual attention to detail. I undestand that this is a first enstallment and it is not perfect but in future i hope that NPCS would acnolledge my character more, and mabey even give that classes a nationallity to match their class and/or gender

[*i]

The faceless main character is a common element in many RPGs. See Crono in Chrono Trigger as a prime example. The reason for this is the character represents you.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Overall I'm okay with the faceless main character (and you do, after all, get to make a lot of decisions that give your character more of a "face"), but it was weird that the game tended to ignore your class/nationality. Shima telling you about what shadowwalkers do even if you are one, Jenell lecturing you on the ways of the Wyldrylm if you're a shaman, etc. To a certain extent this is necessary for sake of exposition, but it definitely came off as weird at times, and it seems like the compendium could handle more of the exposition.

[Paul Collins]

ya

[Randomizer]

THe reason for the faceless and seeming classless player character getting the same reaction is it takes time to write separate dialog for each player class. Four classes means four times the dialog for each situation where the class makes a difference. In order to get the game out some things are sacrificed for speed.

 

I really wish Jeff allowed quoting him from beta testing. His reaction to the suggestion of adding another faction to Geneforge 5 pretty much summed this up. Don't bother asking since I would have to hunt through a hundred posts to find it.

[Mea Tulpa]

One of the major dichotomies in CRPGs is between games with predetermined player characters, who have their own names, personalities, backstories, etc., and games with protagonists who are either totally customizable, or generic-looking and mostly silent.

 

The first type of game lends itself to dramatic interactions between characters and intricate personal relationships, and initially gained prominence among console RPGs that put a strong emphasis on storytelling.

 

The second type of game gives more room for some players to insert themselves into the game, or to imagine their favourite D&D characters are playing, and was really the default CRPG paradigm, taken up by roguelikes as well as Ultima, Wizardry, the Gold Box games, and all of their descendants.

 

Chrono Trigger is the classic example of the "silent protagonist" game, an attempt to straddle the differences by having well-fleshed out secondary characters, with a blank slate hero.

 

Needless to say, many people prefer one or the other sort of game. Jeff's games have always been clearly in the second category, and he's written about the reasons he prefers it. In fact, the NPCs in Avadon, along with Alwan and Greta in Geneforge 3, are as far as he's ever deviated from the faceless PC model.

[Triumph]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

His reaction to the suggestion of adding another faction to Geneforge 5 pretty much summed this up. Don't bother asking since I would have to hunt through a hundred posts to find it.

Out of curiosity, what faction were the ambitious playtesters suggesting he add?

[Paul Collins]

maybe a non-servile, non-drakon creation faction. I always felt that lower tier creations were the whipping boy

[Randomizer]

I wanted to help the Sholai eliminate the Shapers and Rebels. Then their fleet could sail in and conquer the weaken survivors.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Technically, it usually just means double the dialogue, since it's usually something about a single class, so one would have the "class x" and "class not-x" options. Still, these are the tradeoffs involved in having a timely release date.

 

It would be a nice feature in future Avadons, though. Wouldn't have to go over the top with it, but there are a few situations in which I found that the classlessness of the PC in dialogue broke immersion.

[Masquerade]

Originally Posted By: *i

The faceless main character is a common element in many RPGs. See Crono in Chrono Trigger as a prime example. The reason for this is the character represents you.

When i play a game i do not nessicarily want a character that is "me" but rather i want to become my character. Being able to select a nationality during character creation and then having people react to it would add layers to my character and make the experience more immersive on top of adding replay value, this is a feature that i would like to see in av2. I do like the game but i just cant fit into my character if my character cant fit into the game.

[*i]

Quote:

When i play a game i do not nessicarily want a character that is "me" but rather i want to become my character. Being able to select a nationality during character creation and then having people react to it would add layers to my character and make the experience more immersive on top of adding replay value, this is a feature that i would like to see in av2. I do like the game but i just cant fit into my character if my character cant fit into the game.

That's a personal preference. Others may have varying desires in this respect. Realize that no Spiderweb Software game quite does this. I suspect the reason is that Jeff is one guy, and his limited resources are devoted elsewhere. I agree that it is good to make suggestions, however.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Masquerade

Originally Posted By: *i

The faceless main character is a common element in many RPGs. See Crono in Chrono Trigger as a prime example. The reason for this is the character represents you.

When i play a game i do not nessicarily want a character that is "me" but rather i want to become my character. Being able to select a nationality during character creation and then having people react to it would add layers to my character and make the experience more immersive on top of adding replay value, this is a feature that i would like to see in av2. I do like the game but i just cant fit into my character if my character cant fit into the game.

Then play a JRPG instead of a Western one. Almost all Final Fantasy titles do this, for instance.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Dantius

Then play a JRPG instead of a Western one. Almost all Final Fantasy titles do this, for instance.

what final fantasy title allows you to select your nationality and have characters react to it

that's much more of a feature of western games like Dragon Age

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

what final fantasy title allows you to select your nationality and have characters react to it

I was think more along the lines of "the PC has a predefined character and personality and backstory that defines how they interact with others"

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Lilith makes a good point. We've been talking about this in terms of two things (faceless vs. non-faceless), but really it's more like three: (1) PCs with pre-made personality, (3) PCs with player-chosen personality, and (3) "faceless" PCs with little or no personality. The first is typical of modern Japanese RPGs, the second of modern western RPGs, and the the third of roguelikes and most old RPGs. Geneforge is mostly type 2 (though with much more focus on politics and ethics than personality quirks), Avernum is mostly type 3, and Avadon is in-between, but probably closer to Geneforge and type 2.

[Walker White]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

The first type of game lends itself to dramatic interactions between characters and intricate personal relationships, and initially gained prominence among console RPGs that put a strong emphasis on storytelling.

Are you seriously calling the Baldur's Gate series console games?

This is the old BioWare versus Obsidian/Bethesda argument. It has nothing to do with the console versus PC argument. I think it is nice that Jeff is trying something different. Hopefully it does not bankrupt him.

[Olle]

In a lot of ways I find it refreshing to play a game wherein the main character is a doer and not some navel gazing egomaniac with a backlog of emotional traumas to deal with. When I started to play Avadon it seemed pretty clear that this game would function in many ways as Fallout, where your identity is tied to 1) being a vault dweller 2) wether or not you become a slaver (like that is ever a tough choice - that brand is ultra cool). As long as the game lives up to the expectations that it is creating I'm all for it.

Finally I would say that the main character resembles many of the more dedicated denizens of Avadon, such as Redbeard, who have shed their former identities in a lot of ways.

[Paul Collins]

I agree with Olle. My conception of the the Hands (of Avadon) is that they, by becoming Hands (or Hearts or Eyes), express a general wish to shed a former identity in order to be part of the ideal that is Avadon. Take, for example Heart Miranda and the Librarian (2 of the 3 wives). One lost a loved one in service to Avadon and the other had to give up her companions in order to live. Yet despite these pasts they both serve loyally. I find the choice of a blank slate protagonist much more apt in this context than in Geneforge, where shaping (aka the source of player power/skill) was a rare enough skill in the world to practically demand, for storytelling purposes, a more fleshed out explanation of one's character (aka G5, G4 somewat in terms of how canister use molded a character out of your player by virtue of reactions to certain encounters). And even then, it was relatively tame compared to, say, a game like DA2.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Walker White

I think it is nice that Jeff is trying something different. Hopefully it does not bankrupt him.

Well at least he can't try the Bethesda route- if his games aren't voice acted, he can't waste half his budget on a ridiculously famous voice actor and then just kill him off in the tutorial.

[Alorael at Large]

No, most Bioware games are still silent protagonist games. Your party members have character development and interactions, but you don't. Not really. You can have interactions, and even romances, but a personality? Not really.

 

—Alorael, who thinks it's worth drawing two lines, one between games where your whole party is silent and games where only one protagonist is, and another line between those silent protagonists and entirely fleshed-out casts.

[Mea Tulpa]

Originally Posted By: Walker White

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

The first type of game lends itself to dramatic interactions between characters and intricate personal relationships, and initially gained prominence among console RPGs that put a strong emphasis on storytelling.

Are you seriously calling the Baldur's Gate series console games?

No. I'm talking about things that predate that series. That's why I said "initially."

This may be an old Obsidian vs Bethesda argument to you, but the argument predates those battleships.

[Triumph]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

This may be an old Obsidian vs Bethesda argument to you, but the argument predates those battleships.

You sunk my battleship.

[Dantius]

Chess vs. Battleship flamewar.

 

GO!

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Flame wars are more fun than either. Problem solved.

 

"You sank my argumentum ad nazium!

[Dantius]

A well placed argumentum ad cellarium does tend to do that...

[madrigan]

I don't know anything about this Bioware-Obsidian-Bethesda issue, but if I think that my character is missing a backstory, I just make one up. There are probably many people living in the Pact nations who do not share any of the five dominant ethnicities. The game doesn't mention them because it's not important to the main story, but there are probably equivalents to, say, the Jews, the Roma, or the Parsi. I assume my character is from an enclave of an ethnic group of this sort.

 

The peoples of the pact seem rather ethnocentric, which helps explain why no one ever refers to my culture or background -- they don't consider it worth acknowledging. It also helps to explain why I don't seem to have a connection to any place I travel -- my people are few, and none of my missions happen to take place where they live. If my people tend to live and work inside their own communities, that would explain why I don't know anything about the major cultures of the Pact.

 

I think think this is much more useful, in terms of determining my character's standpoint and explaining the details of the game, than assuming that he is an orphan or has amnesia. I often make things up like this and simply assume it as I go through the game. I sometimes did the same with some of my Avernum games. I find it enriches my game experience and it doesn't make any more work for Jeff.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Just as long as it's not clearly an argumentum ex culo.

 

@Madrigan: I think that idea has some merit, but it works a lot better for some classes than others. A blademaster could presumably be from any ethnicity that has that approximate skin tone and isn't broadly averse to the use of heavy metal armor. The sorceress has the standard Kellem look, but presumably Dharam and a few other places have substantial numbers of people with pale skin and blond hair. The shaman and shadowwalker are a bit more problematic, though. The former practices a style of magic that seems exclusively native to the Wyldrylm and Khemeria. The latter wears garb that is heavily bound up in Holklandan tradition; there are even a few points in the game where the narrator comments that a character's shadowwalker garb looks inauthentic.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: FnordCola

Just as long as it's not clearly an argumentum ex culo.

@Madrigan: I think that idea has some merit, but it works a lot better for some classes than others. A blademaster could presumably be from any ethnicity that has that approximate skin tone and isn't broadly averse to the use of heavy metal armor. The sorceress has the standard Kellem look, but presumably Dharam and a few other places have substantial numbers of people with pale skin and blond hair. The shaman and shadowwalker are a bit more problematic, though. The former practices a style of magic that seems exclusively native to the Wyldrylm and Khemeria. The latter wears garb that is heavily bound up in Holklandan tradition; there are even a few points in the game where the narrator comments that a character's shadowwalker garb looks inauthentic.

These are all good points. With the shaman, it's not at all unlikely that there would be a minor ethnicity which had religious and cultural practices similar enough to those of the Wyldrylm to be invisible in game terms, but which was also culturally distinct enough that its members would be interacted with in the manner I described. A member of this minor ethnicity might be genetically related to members of the dominant culture going back to some remote past when a cultural branching took place, which would explain the similar physical appearance. I think the same conception works with the shadowwalker.

As well, we don't know for sure that a member of a minor ethnicity would be absolutely excluded from the training of a shaman or a shadowwalker. I think it's adequately plausible to assume that a shadowwalker PC was raised in a remote ethnic enclave of Holklanda, but was able to receive the training as an adult, or that a shaman PC was raised in a similar circumstance in the Wyldrylm and adopted the dominant religious practices later. The backstory might include episodes in which the character chose to leave his or her community and adopt some of the practices of the dominant culture, or in which the character's potential was noticed by a high ranking Eye or Hand from that dominant culture. Thus the character is a completely legitimate shaman or shadowwalker in terms of garb and abilities, and appears the same physically from our perspective, but is nonetheless treated differently from more "normal" members of those professions as their in world physical traits or speaking accent are a bit "off."

[Ceiling Durkheim]

I think that's an interesting story in itself, but it loses sight of the problem that was the raison d'etre of the "ethnic minority/member of non-dominant culture" thing in the first place. That is, the fact that characters who appear to be from Holklanda/the Wyldrylm are not recognized as such, and receive instruction on those cultures as if they were foreigners. A person who has received several years of training as a shadowwalker, from native Holklandan shadowwalkers, would presumably have substantial knowledge of Holklandan culture, and might well have adopted various mannerisms typical of Holklandans in order to fit in with his instructors.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: FnordCola

I think that's an interesting story in itself, but it loses sight of the problem that was the raison d'etre of the "ethnic minority/member of non-dominant culture" thing in the first place. That is, the fact that characters who appear to be from Holklanda/the Wyldrylm are not recognized as such, and receive instruction on those cultures as if they were foreigners. A person who has received several years of training as a shadowwalker, from native Holklandan shadowwalkers, would presumably have substantial knowledge of Holklandan culture, and might well have adopted various mannerisms typical of Holklandans in order to fit in with his instructors.

I did think of that, or part of it. I assume that the PC moves straight from the isolation of a remote ethnic enclave straight to the isolation of intense daily training. During these many years of training the PC interacts with members of the dominant culture, but only with members of the dominant culture who have to some degree abandoned the common day-to-day cultural trappings of their previous lives in order to focus on an older, more "pure" way of expressing the culture.

For example if I had, as a child, or young adult, moved from New York to Japan to live in a remote Zen monastery, I would know many Japanese people but much of contemporary Japanese culture would be completely unknown to me. Given that the Pact nations do not have electronic media, and that many areas are very hard to travel to, an member of a minor ethnicity living in a remote enclave within Holklanda might know less about Holklandan culture than I actually know about Japanese culture in RL even though I've never been there and speak no Japanese.

In my game I am playing a shadowwalker. So the way it would work in-world is something like: "I was born within the borders of Holklanda in a remote area where the roads don't go. I am not Holklandan, but many of the older practices of my people resemble some of the older Holklandan practices, so it is possible that we were one people long ago. When I was child, a Holklandan woman from Avadon visited my village. As I was the son of a village elder, I was noticed by this woman when she came to meet with the local council. She explained that I had great potential as a "shadowwalker" and my parents decided it was best that I attend the Institute for Shadowwalking and Ninja Awesomeness. The next day I began the long journey to the ISNA. The training was hard and often painful. Though I was never treated badly, I did not quite fit in with my fellow students, who sometimes ridiculed my odd pronunciation of "sibboleth." Nonetheless we were all following an ancient path that was largely forgotten outside of the ISNA. Most Holklandans will never know how much of their well-being and security is owed to the efforts of the shadowwalkers. After many years, I became a shadowwalker and was assigned to Avadon. The world still seems strange to me, sometimes, but I am devoted to Avadon's mission of law, order, and peace. I have never been able to return to my village; perhaps I will never see it again. "