Unflappable Drayk Ceiling Durkheim Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Subjective? Yes. Most things are. Etiquette is a set of subjective rules of conduct determined by the leadership and/or popular consensus of a given group. What various people have pointed out is that you're acting in a manner contrary to the Spiderweb forum's code of etiquette, not that what you're doing is objectively wrong, or would be inappropriate in all contexts. Also, I'm pretty sure I agreed and agree with the substance of your point about leadership. I nitpicked parts of it, and I'm not a fan of the "who cares if we alienate casual gamers" line of thinking, but I think that the Geneforge series (and various non-Spiderweb games) have handled leadership and similar conversational skills in a way that adds quality and value to those games. I think conversational attributes/skills, if done right, are a good thing, and I think I've said as much above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast *i Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Thank you for your understanding. Please resume your discussion if you wish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Paul Collins Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 Aight. Perhaps I just wanted an ally in what I felt was the losing argument for the diversification of gameplay experience, not because it was easy or right, but because it offered choice. As I mentioned prior, Jeff's games are valuable in both large and small ways. And a small way was the manner in which a character's personal charisma was treated. I can't accept that the loss of leadership is a good thing, ever. And so can't others, silent or not. That is all I ask, an understanding of a perspective informed by years of good games (Arcanum,Bloodlines, Torment, Geneforge) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Student of Trinity Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 It may well come back, you know. Jeff had a lot of work to launch a whole new system, and thinking out useful things for Leadership to do is hard. It's only worth doing at all if you can do it well, after all. So it may just not have made it into the first game. If all goes well, there'll be an Avadon 2, and Geneforge-style Leadership might get done then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Originally Posted By: Paul Collins Aight. Perhaps I just wanted an ally in what I felt was the losing argument for the diversification of gameplay experience, not because it was easy or right, but because it offered choice. As I mentioned prior, Jeff's games are valuable in both large and small ways. And a small way was the manner in which a character's personal charisma was treated. I can't accept that the loss of leadership is a good thing, ever. And so can't others, silent or not. That is all I ask, an understanding of a perspective informed by years of good games (Arcanum,Bloodlines, Torment, Geneforge) The thing is that I was never saying that diversity in gameplay experience is bad, just that there are better ways to diversify gameplay experience than with simple pass-fail skill checks. Look at Alpha Protocol: for all its flaws, it has one of the best dialogue systems in any game ever made, and without a single dialogue skill being involved. The player is given the choice of how to approach each conversation, which will affect future interactions with NPCs, and instead of there being one clear "best path" in any situation, there are different benefits and drawbacks to different courses of action. You can be the charismatic agent who befriends everyone, but you can also go around ruffling feathers and making enemies wherever you go, and both options are equally interesting and rewarding in their own ways. To my mind, that's infinitely better than simply having a good outcome or a bad outcome depending on whether the character meets an arbitrary level of skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Originally Posted By: Lilith Look at Alpha Protocol: for all its flaws, it has one of the best dialogue systems in any game ever made, and without a single dialogue skill being involved. The player is given the choice of how to approach each conversation, which will affect future interactions with NPCs, and instead of there being one clear "best path" in any situation, there are different benefits and drawbacks to different courses of action. I have not met anyone who played Alpha Protocol and didn't just pick "Suave" every time, because that's what James Bond would do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenderfoot Thahd Olle Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Just one thing on the dialogues. Why is there ever a dialogue option that, in the face of betrayal goes something like this Bad-guy-ion: Moaha ha ha, you have stepped right into my trap. Now I will feast on your innards! Player: What are you doing with that knife? What is going on? When will you give me that lollipop you promised earlier, just before you led me down this spooky dungeon and turned of the lights? You have to be pretty dedicated to playing happy-go-lucky in order to pick those, or am I missing some subtle adventurers joke here? Edit: sorry if I just went completely off-topic, not that anything is being helped with this ad hoc excuse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Originally Posted By: Lilith In general, I prefer making meaningful choices on a moment-to-moment basis instead of having my choices predetermined for me by the way I built my character. This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Paul Collins Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 boo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk MrRoivas Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Originally Posted By: Olle Just one thing on the dialogues. Why is there ever a dialogue option that, in the face of betrayal goes something like this Bad-guy-ion: Moaha ha ha, you have stepped right into my trap. Now I will feast on your innards! Player: What are you doing with that knife? What is going on? When will you give me that lollipop you promised earlier, just before you led me down this spooky dungeon and turned of the lights? You have to be pretty dedicated to playing happy-go-lucky in order to pick those, or am I missing some subtle adventurers joke here? In G5, there is actually a pretty hilarious moment where that happens. After being obviously betrayed by a Guardian, your character can say to him upon appearing something like "Hooray! Now you can help me defeat this evil monster which has mysteriously come to life in an area under your control." The Guardian is rather nonplussed by your "optimism." It is so over the top that I role play it as my character having a very dry sense of humor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenderfoot Thahd Olle Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 That actually made me chuckle, perhaps these options will grow on me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Ceiling Durkheim Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 That was one of my favorite moments in G5. I always pick that dialogue option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast VCH Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 I've always thought Jeff should go back to the old exile style of picking locks. And by that I mean having the group smash the door to pieces. If my sorceress can summon a fireball, she should have no problem with a wooden door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgeoning Battle Gamma tehpineapple Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Paul Collins Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 So what do people think? What's the score? I say...87-92 percent, relatively speaking and adjusted to circumstance. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Two standard deviations above the mean, normalized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 You can't normalize standard deviations. —Alorael, who confesses to some confusion over what's being scored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Everything. I scored and judged everything you have ever done, compared it to the average of the human race, and came to the conclusion that 192,500,000 people did it better than you. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Quote: —Alorael, who confesses to some confusion over what's being scored. The picture of the Redbeard monkey, Dikiyoba hopes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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