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Long time player, first time poster on these forums. I run the odd tabletop roleplaying game at my university campus and, this year, the opportunity to arose to try running a more traditional fantasy game. I wondered what I could run and realised my fellow gamers would probably be already well acquainted with the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk and Eberron but fewer of them might be as aware of Exile/Avernum. So, this year, I've opted to run the first roleplaying game I ever played (The Ruined World) as a Dungeons & Dragons style campaign.

 

That said, I'm not actually using D&D rules but a newer edition of Basic Roleplaying. I don't have time to adapt all of the Exile/Avernum spells but the game system I'm using is pretty well suited to some of them. Since many of the people here have probably been playing the games even longer than I have (Exile 3 was my first experience of them), I figured here would be the best place I could come to answer some questions.

 

1) What races should be playable? Obviously, the main three (Human, Nephil, Slith) go without saying but I've toyed with the possibility of allowing Vahnatai, Goblin, Ogre and Gremlin, all of which would probably suffer an even harder time on the surface. In terms of power, I'm going for the old fashioned "hits you and steals from you" Gremlin instead of the "Casts Confusion" Gremlin. Any other suggestions?

 

2) What spells from both Exile and Avernum should definitely be kept? As is, the system I uses mostly uses Advanced Dungeons & Dragons spells, but to these I'll definitely be adding a form of Scry Monster and Capture Soul.

 

3) Some things are rare or incredibly expensive in Valorim. Just how hard to come by ought boats, horses and quality armour be? It's been a little while since I played Avernum 3 but the only platemail I recall outside of the quest for Pachtar's Plate was some you could loot from a Dervish. Are any other items particularly rare?

 

4) What differences are there between a Mage and a Priest? The same kind of difference between the old school D&D Magic User vs. Cleric?

 

5) Just how tough are some of the monsters? Again, it's been a while since I've played and I don't have my old saves full of Scry'd monsters to provide me with their stats.

 

6) What would non-Mages get out of the Stone Circles and Tower of Magi? I can't imagine the Fighter and Rogue are going to be particularly pleased when the Mage gets a bunch of extra power and they have less to show for it. I can imagine the more martial members of the party getting Magical Items from the Tower of Magi but the Stone Circles still leave me puzzled.

 

7) How do I deal with the Anama? In a game with character classes, they potentially wipe out non-Clerics and give actual Clerics major bonuses without penalties. In a singleplayer game, that one player is suffering the penalties (no magic) whilst gaining the bonuses. When there's lots of players, the choice would be individual to join or not... and I can't think of a way to balance it at all.

 

Any help would be, well, it would be incredibly helpful!

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In regard to number 5, if you're looking for Exile-series monster stats, Blades of Exile is open source. (Check over on the Blades of Exile area if you're interested; they should have links.) In the editor you can find the stats of all the monsters from BoE, which overlaps most of those from E1-3.

 

I'm not really sure about those others, as I haven't played any of the older Avernums.

 

Good luck!

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I had that in mind - downloaded the source from http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/blades/opensource.html but darned if I know how to do anything with it - can't find an exe in it and no idea what runs. That I'm on Vista probably doesn't help. Taking a crack at Blades of Avernum but I can't seem to work it out either.

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Welcome to Spiderweb! Leave your sanity at the door.

 

Adapting Exile\Avernum straight to a table top RPG may well be impossible(or at least somewhat unplayable) with out having to make tweaks.

 

1) Unless you have a lot of people, ie; more than 7 or 8, three different race should be plenty, this way, you won't have to try and come up with various bonuses and penalties for other races. On this subject, you might have to tinker a bit to make the three a little more even, experience penalties are going to be hard to track and handle, so if you do away with them, playing a human has no advantages.

 

2) Some spells are easily done, others, you'll have to modify them a little if you want to use them, like Scry Monster and Capture Soul\Simulacrum. You could also include some of the more quirky ones, like Wound.

 

3) In this setting, some things should definitely be in short supply. Boats and Horses, definitely, Good quality metal products should be a bit rare as well, including plate mail.

 

4) Mage Priest differences seem to correlate pretty well. Mages can't wear armor, spell type differences seem good.

 

5) For monster toughness, unless you want to do some major research, or unless some one on these boards has stats handy(this is readily possible), just use your memory to work out stats, things don't have to be exact. Even with the stats handy, you'll have to do some tweaking.

 

6) This is a spot where you'll have to take some liberties. Non magic users could possibly find some nice magical gear in the Tower, and no says the Tower of Magi couldn't offer some of the more Mage like Priestly spells. Like some of the summoning or damaging ones. The Stone Circles can offer a stat boost of some kind.

 

7) The Anama can almost be directly be implemented. Though it seems unlikely your players will be tempted to join. More likely that they'll end up in a bit of conflict with them. That said, you might try going that route from the outset.

 

 

Well, those are my opinions.

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Try Avernum as a d20 game since this discussion has come up before to see what someone else did.


I would but I've played a fair few d20 in my time and I've always been quite fond of d%. From the looks of things, Avernum already seemed to be a percentile game so, maybe if this goes down well with my players, I might try adapting the game as a whole =) Thanks for sharing the information though! =D


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Welcome to Spiderweb! Leave your sanity at the door.


I've been playing Call of Cthulhu for years. I have no sanity to speak of. Thanks though =)


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Unless you have a lot of people, ie; more than 7 or 8, three different race should be plenty, this way, you won't have to try and come up with various bonuses and penalties for other races. On this subject, you might have to tinker a bit to make the three a little more even, experience penalties are going to be hard to track and handle, so if you do away with them, playing a human has no advantages.


I like to give people the choice though. Anyway, the system I'm using already accomodates the XP bonus/penalty thing - everyone gets a bonus to learn new skills based on their attributes. Humans get twice the bonus and a bunch of extra skill points to start out with.


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Some spells are easily done, others, you'll have to modify them a little if you want to use them, like Scry Monster and Capture Soul\Simulacrum. You could also include some of the more quirky ones, like Wound.

I actually think this particular game has Wound down as a ranged damage spell for Clerics. As for Scry Monster, I thought I'd try bending it to the spell-level thing the game has going. The more Magic Points you put in, the higher the spell level. So for every level of Scry you cast, you find out more details about it, like it's current HP, Max HP, etc. Mostly, I've been wondering about how to handle Quickfire in a more traditional game. I mean, does that fire ever go out on it's own?

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In this setting, some things should definitely be in short supply. Boats and Horses, definitely, Good quality metal products should be a bit rare as well, including plate mail.


I think the best the players might see for a while - at least, until they can find a guy willing to sell them a few horses - is cave lizards or cave cows to pull carts. I think the metal objects will probably be rare, partly because Valorim is something of a recently settled region, isn't it? Part that and the fact that I imagine a lot of shopkeepers aren't going to want to be seen selling their best weapons and armour to a bunch of obvious Avernites.

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Mage Priest differences seem to correlate pretty well. Mages can't wear armor, spell type differences seem good.


No problems there then. The only trouble I -might- have is that there seems to be very little information on who or what people worship. The system I'm using doesn't have Domains like D&D 3.5 but it does have the favoured weapon kind of rules. Are there any gods to speak of in the setting or is it more or less anything goes?


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For monster toughness, unless you want to do some major research, or unless some one on these boards has stats handy(this is readily possible), just use your memory to work out stats, things don't have to be exact. Even with the stats handy, you'll have to do some tweaking.


Keep goblins puny, keep Doomguards diabolical. Should be able to manage it. =D

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This is a spot where you'll have to take some liberties. Non magic users could possibly find some nice magical gear in the Tower, and no says the Tower of Magi couldn't offer some of the more Mage like Priestly spells. Like some of the summoning or damaging ones. The Stone Circles can offer a stat boost of some kind.


That might be the best way to handle it then - I'm sure the Mage and Cleric have some overlap in the spells they can have. The possibility of giving the Stone Circles a Stat Boost is pretty enticing. If not that, I might give them Spell-like abilities.


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The Anama can almost be directly be implemented. Though it seems unlikely your players will be tempted to join. More likely that they'll end up in a bit of conflict with them. That said, you might try going that route from the outset.


Well, I might alter them a touch. Should the party have a Cleric or Monk, they're more likely to be friendly but Mages are going to get a lot of scorn. Considering that from what I've read, they pushed a Mage Academy out of business and, as such, crippled Bigail's economy (leaving room for Skribbane farming to take up the slack) and I think the players are going to be pretty wary around the Anama.

In terms of mechanics, I MIGHT give people who agree to join a bonus to their Power attribute (which, in game terms, increases Spell Points, Luck, Mental Resistance and Fate Points which are used to get rerolls when things go badly). Maybe even entitle them to a couple of decent Cleric spells. If they break their vows, however, or use enchanted items (not blessed items or potions), they lose their membership, the bonuses they got and their status plummets with folks from the Church. Would that seem reasonable?


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Well, those are my opinions.

And I'm very glad you took the time to share them =D
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Originally Posted By: Samael101
I actually think this particular game has Wound down as a ranged damage spell for Clerics. As for Scry Monster, I thought I'd try bending it to the spell-level thing the game has going. The more Magic Points you put in, the higher the spell level. So for every level of Scry you cast, you find out more details about it, like it's current HP, Max HP, etc. Mostly, I've been wondering about how to handle Quickfire in a more traditional game. I mean, does that fire ever go out on it's own?


Quickfire will be very hard to implement, I may not be recalling correctly, but I don't think there was anyway to put it out once it was cast(other than leaving the area and coming back), just block it off with barriers. Trying to use it like that will obviously cause lots of problems, if you want a Quickfire type of effect, you'll have to add a duration or limit.

Originally Posted By: Samael101
No problems there then. The only trouble I -might- have is that there seems to be very little information on who or what people worship. The system I'm using doesn't have Domains like D&D 3.5 but it does have the favoured weapon kind of rules. Are there any gods to speak of in the setting or is it more or less anything goes?


I don't remember anything about any actual deity/s in Exile/Avernum(It's been a while since I've played the Exile or early Avernum games). However, since you're going to have to make changes regardless, you can add some deities, or you can just base the worship off of concepts, like the Anama or the Church of the Divine Lucre.

Originally Posted By: Samael101
Well, I might alter them a touch. Should the party have a Cleric or Monk, they're more likely to be friendly but Mages are going to get a lot of scorn. Considering that from what I've read, they pushed a Mage Academy out of business and, as such, crippled Bigail's economy (leaving room for Skribbane farming to take up the slack) and I think the players are going to be pretty wary around the Anama.

In terms of mechanics, I MIGHT give people who agree to join a bonus to their Power attribute (which, in game terms, increases Spell Points, Luck, Mental Resistance and Fate Points which are used to get rerolls when things go badly). Maybe even entitle them to a couple of decent Cleric spells. If they break their vows, however, or use enchanted items (not blessed items or potions), they lose their membership, the bonuses they got and their status plummets with folks from the Church. Would that seem reasonable?


Some of that seems good, however, if some of your party joins while others refrain, it could create conflict within the party, which, in my experience, can quickly lead to ruin in terms of the game itself and possibly amongst the players themselves.
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Originally Posted By: RCCCL
Quickfire will be very hard to implement, I may not be recalling correctly, but I don't think there was anyway to put it out once it was cast(other than leaving the area and coming back), just block it off with barriers. Trying to use it like that will obviously cause lots of problems, if you want a Quickfire type of effect, you'll have to add a duration or limit.


In which case, I can put Quickfire in amongst some of the highest powered spells. In the system I'm using, the highest spells (the ones that are typically Save or Die), the caster uses up spell points and has to permanently sacrifice a point of their Power attribute. They can train it back up later but it's still a significant cost.

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I don't remember anything about any actual deity/s in Exile/Avernum(It's been a while since I've played the Exile or early Avernum games). However, since you're going to have to make changes regardless, you can add some deities, or you can just base the worship off of concepts, like the Anama or the Church of the Divine Lucre.


Maybe that's the trick to it then - people individual believe in household gods and spirits but share common ideals and concepts. I might actually sort of use the Domain system from D&D instead of gods then, in a way - the Cleric believes in Order, War, Luck, whatever it is, they carry the concept.

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Some of that seems good, however, if some of your party joins while others refrain, it could create conflict within the party, which, in my experience, can quickly lead to ruin in terms of the game itself and possibly amongst the players themselves.


Ah, some intraparty squabble's okay, so long as it doesn't become the main focus. If it does, I'll give the players a timeout or point out that they're on a time situation and can resolve their differences after saving the world, with as much magic and stolen artifacts and enchanted rewards as they want to throw at each other. But only afterwards.
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It's generally a bad idea to try to directly port mechanics from a CRPG to the tabletop; the two have very different assumptions and processes.

 

For spells, I'd say you should go with what the system does well. Exile/Avernum run largely on generic attack, buff, debuff, and healing spells, with a small handful of utility spells. Exile has a few more oddball offerings, but that's the basic idea. For tabletop, you probably want a wider range.

 

In Exile/Avernum, metal is relatively rare, steel quite rare, and magical weapons nearly absent. On the surface, however, there are no such problems. Gear rarity happens because game balance demands more powerful equipment at the end of the game, but the setting has no such requirement. Plate mail is, of course, rarer and more expensive than chainmail, but plenty of people should have it, and the most skilled blacksmiths wherever should be able to make it.

 

Horses aren't rare at all. There aren't many for sale in Exile because of engine restrictions, but they're for sale almost immediately from the beginning of the game. Boats are similarly engine-limited but widely available in Exile/Avernum; they're only present in plot-relevant areas on the surface because water isn't central to the exploration of Valorim, so go ahead and treat boats and ships and horses like you would in any other pseudo-medieval setting: make them moderately pricey and fairly common.

 

The rules on mages are that they generally can't wear armor (except in Avernum they often can thanks to the Natural Mage trait) and that they often perform expensive and esoteric research along with spellcasting. Priests seem more focused on being the typical healers and mace-wielding fighters, but there aren't really many rules about them either. There are gods mentioned, but there seem to be many, and they're mostly worshipped by a few and can be basically unheard-of by the rest. (Maybe all religion is mystery cults?) Valorim has the Anama, an anti-magic cult, and the Church of the Divine Lucre, which simply believes that wealth and commerce are good, but there are no explicit gods involved.

 

—Alorael, who imagines that the stone circles and the Anama bonuses are something that you should just completely overhaul for tabletop balance. Give everyone something and everyone is happy. Why not give fighters bonuses to fighting from demon-fueled circles or to replace the standard magical buffs that fighters rely on.

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Gods aren't mentioned much in Exile/Avernum except the Troglodytes mention their gods bringing them back or at least what they thought were gods.

 

There are many different churches (some examples):

Anama

Church of Divine Lucre

Shrine of Divine Attainment (Avernum 6) - belief in the individual

Temple of Elgar (Avernum 2 - Mertis) - warrior deity

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Originally Posted By: Randomizer
Gods aren't mentioned much in Exile/Avernum except the Troglodytes mention their gods bringing them back or at least what they thought were gods.

There are many different churches (some examples):
Anama
Church of Divine Lucre
Shrine of Divine Attainment (Avernum 6) - belief in the individual
Temple of Elgar (Avernum 2 - Mertis) - warrior deity


There's also the Priestess of War in, IIRC, Muck in A5.
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For spells, I'd say you should go with what the system does well. Exile/Avernum run largely on generic attack, buff, debuff, and healing spells, with a small handful of utility spells. Exile has a few more oddball offerings, but that's the basic idea. For tabletop, you probably want a wider range.


For the most part, I was happy to use the roleplaying system I'm using's spells which, for the most part, are the old fashioned D&D spells. The things I'm looking for here are the more unique or interesting spells, the ones that had good utility (Scry Monster), mechanics (Capture Soul), flavour (Quickfire) or were the ones that were of questionable use in Exile (I'd say Stealth but Invisibility is covered by the system I'm using and IS useful. Maybe Spray Fields is more along the lines of Questionale).

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In Exile/Avernum, metal is relatively rare, steel quite rare, and magical weapons nearly absent. On the surface, however, there are no such problems. Gear rarity happens because game balance demands more powerful equipment at the end of the game, but the setting has no such requirement. Plate mail is, of course, rarer and more expensive than chainmail, but plenty of people should have it, and the most skilled blacksmiths wherever should be able to make it.
I have to confess, I'm something of a fan of slowly scaling up the quality of equipment for the players because, when you finally find something of high quality steel or get Fighter's First Plate Mail, it feels like something of an accomplishment. I do think it's pretty reasonable that Imperial smiths would be unwilling to sell their best stuff to Avernites or at a reasonable rate unless they're sympathisers or if they help out. Which, if they follow the plot, they will... so part of the reward they get for helping out with one of the plagues is getting access to better equipment and at a lower cost. That might work out quite nicely!

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Horses aren't rare at all. There aren't many for sale in Exile because of engine restrictions, but they're for sale almost immediately from the beginning of the game. Boats are similarly engine-limited but widely available in Exile/Avernum; they're only present in plot-relevant areas on the surface because water isn't central to the exploration of Valorim, so go ahead and treat boats and ships and horses like you would in any other pseudo-medieval setting: make them moderately pricey and fairly common.


I have to confess, I hadn't thought of the mechanical issue. In fact, now that I think about it, I can't remember what horses really did for the party. Decreased rate of food consumption? I don't know why I thought they should be so particularly expensive, either. You can buy a boat for the party for 500 gold and a party worth of horses for 2500 gold. Maybe I blocked that thought from my mind before - I must subconsciously be dreading running mounted combat laugh Even then, it should be still on an even playing field if I allow goblins to use wolves and wargs as mounts and let the Empire have it's horses. Would ogres, troglodytes or giants have mounts? I can't imagine any of them riding an Ursag comfortably.

Without the restrictions of the engine, I could probably allow the players a bit more freedom in sailing, mostly for purposes of exploring some of the off-shore island (and if the tick off the Anama, they may need to beat a hasty retreat off on their own).

I think I'll allow for horses at a reasonable price and common nature but maybe a little less so in the more heavily sieged or less settled areas.

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The rules on mages are that they generally can't wear armor (except in Avernum they often can thanks to the Natural Mage trait) and that they often perform expensive and esoteric research along with spellcasting. Priests seem more focused on being the typical healers and mace-wielding fighters, but there aren't really many rules about them either. There are gods mentioned, but there seem to be many, and they're mostly worshipped by a few and can be basically unheard-of by the rest. (Maybe all religion is mystery cults?) Valorim has the Anama, an anti-magic cult, and the Church of the Divine Lucre, which simply believes that wealth and commerce are good, but there are no explicit gods involved.


In the system I use, Mages can 'sort of' cast in armour. The thing is, however, the heavier the armour they wear, the more chance they have of fumbling the spell. In chainmail, they basically have a 1 in 5 chance of not just failing to cast the spell successfully but potentially frying their minds, themselves and/or their allies. They can try to cast, if they want, but it's inadvisable.

The clerics thing shouldn't be a problem then, overall. It looks like they can worship just about anything they please and possibly opt into a religion or cult as well.

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the stone circles and the Anama bonuses are something that you should just completely overhaul for tabletop balance. Give everyone something and everyone is happy. Why not give fighters bonuses to fighting from demon-fueled circles or to replace the standard magical buffs that fighters rely on.


Hm, if they get a skill bonus from the Stone Circle encounter, I might give them either a sudden bonus to a given skill or, if they're slowly being fed power from demons, when ever they roll dice to see how many points they gain in something, they might have a bonus to that or even roll a bigger dice. Hm, I'll take a look at the classes and might see if I can come up with some class-specific bonuses for the circles.

I can't imagine Paladins are going to have much fun with these things. Do you think the circles ought to radiate Evil or, at least, a certain wrongness?
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Originally Posted By: Mistb0rn
In regard to number 5, if you're looking for Exile-series monster stats, Blades of Exile is open source. (Check over on the Blades of Exile area if you're interested; they should have links.) In the editor you can find the stats of all the monsters from BoE, which overlaps most of those from E1-3.
Originally Posted By: Samael101
I had that in mind - downloaded the source from http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/blades/opensource.html but darned if I know how to do anything with it - can't find an exe in it and no idea what runs. That I'm on Vista probably doesn't help. Taking a crack at Blades of Avernum but I can't seem to work it out either.
If you went to that page, you should've taken note of the link at the bottom of the page leading to the Google Code page for Blades of Exile, where there is a Windows version available for download that works on newer computers.

You would want to launch up the Scenario editor and open the bladbase.exs file (assuming you're on Windows here). Keep in mind that there may be errors in that file (I think the "cockroaches having petrification touch" was fixed, but some errors may not be.)

Originally Posted By: Samael101

6) What would non-Mages get out of the Stone Circles and Tower of Magi? I can't imagine the Fighter and Rogue are going to be particularly pleased when the Mage gets a bunch of extra power and they have less to show for it. I can imagine the more martial members of the party getting Magical Items from the Tower of Magi but the Stone Circles still leave me puzzled.
As well as the suggestions by others, you could dig into the later games' mechanics and give out Battle Disciplines.

Originally Posted By: Samael101
Mostly, I've been wondering about how to handle Quickfire in a more traditional game. I mean, does that fire ever go out on it's own?
Yeah, after awhile it dies down on its own. I imagine it wouldn't be terrible to allow players to try to put it out with water, soil, etc, though obviously that wouldn't be easy.

Originally Posted By: Samael101
Would ogres, troglodytes or giants have mounts? I can't imagine any of them riding an Ursag comfortably.
I seem to recall that the Ursagi had some intelligence; they mightn't even let someone ride them. I could imagine an ogre or troglodyte mounted on a normal bear, though. I don't think giants need mounts; they're big enough as it is.

Originally Posted By: Samael101
In the system I use, Mages can 'sort of' cast in armour. The thing is, however, the heavier the armour they wear, the more chance they have of fumbling the spell. In chainmail, they basically have a 1 in 5 chance of not just failing to cast the spell successfully but potentially frying their minds, themselves and/or their allies. They can try to cast, if they want, but it's inadvisable.
Exile/Avernum is similar as I recall; the higher your encumbrance, the less spells you can cast (losing higher-level spells first). The Magically Apt/Natural Mage trait negates this penalty though.

Originally Posted By: Samael101

I can't imagine Paladins are going to have much fun with these things. Do you think the circles ought to radiate Evil or, at least, a certain wrongness?
I never thought there was anything Evil about the stone circles...
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Using the circles compels you to free Haakai at the Great Circle in Footracer Province, if I remember correctly. Then again, you can immediately destroy them, so not much harm done. I don't remember it being at all clear what the link between the circles and the demons is supposed to be.

 

—Alorael, who could see it being the demons granting power in exchange for freedom, or some good force spreading itself too thin to keep them locked away by helping you. The standard for evil pacts is to know what you're getting into, which is not at all true for the stone circles.

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Originally Posted By: demons will charm you
Using the circles compels you to free Haakai at the Great Circle in Footracer Province, if I remember correctly. Then again, you can immediately destroy them, so not much harm done.
Yes, you're remembering correctly. However, there are five circles in total, and you need to use only four to be compelled to free the demons.
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I don't remember it being at all clear what the link between the circles and the demons is supposed to be.

—Alorael, who could see it being the demons granting power in exchange for freedom
That might me it, but I don't think the game really states any clear purpose for the circles. I seem to remember a book somewhere on the surface that offers some speculation on the circles' origin and purpose, but that's about it.
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In Exile/Avernum, metal is relatively rare, steel quite rare, and magical weapons nearly absent. On the surface, however, there are no such problems. Gear rarity happens because game balance demands more powerful equipment at the end of the game, but the setting has no such requirement. Plate mail is, of course, rarer and more expensive than chainmail, but plenty of people should have it, and the most skilled blacksmiths wherever should be able to make it.


Don't forget, all of Valorim is under quarantine and no supplies are allowed in or out: and this includes steel. This cuts into the resources that armorsmiths can use, since the local mines are relatively limited in supply and quality.

Hence, platemail and high quality (steel) weapons are rare and what little can be made, is generally reserved for use by Empire dervishes.
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