Customer Service Promises - No Obnoxious DRM

[Faithful]

I want to say that I am pleased that Spiderweb does not support "Obnoxious DRM" on their titles. I am also pleased they give out free codes for what appears any reason.

 

For that I thank Spiderweb.

 

Now, I may be in the minority, but I honestly would rather see a Customer Service Promises regarding DRM with one less word.

 

I would like to see it change from "No Obnoxious DRM" to simply "No DRM".

 

It is hard for me to see the point of putting DRM on the product if keys are given out for any reason at all. Why make buying customers wait for a key in order to move to your Windows computer from the Mac, or why make your kid wait if you want to install it on their system?

 

If one is a pirate one will find a way around, and if a person is honest they are not going to do anything untoward in the first place.

 

Have these titles been pirated? Are they already on sites you can download for free? I have no idea, since I will not go there, but if there are already there why make honest users jump through any type of hoop at all?

 

As I understand the CD do not have DRM on them, and that is good, but why would digital distribution have DRM then?

 

This is the single factor (DRM) that has prevented me from buying the product thus far, and it seems the only way I will buy is if there is for sure no key what-so-ever on the CD version of the game/series.

 

As I say, I know I am likely in a small minority here, but I am also sure I am not the only person that thinks this way, and bypasses buying due to DRM.

 

Thanks for hearing me out on this topic.

[Randomizer]

There is a key on the CD-ROM version, but it is included so the game is installed automatically registered unlike some other companies that require you to enter the key.

 

The key requirement stops the casual pirate. It requires at least minimal effort to access the full game without paying.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Also, Jeff doesn't give out keys for any reason. You have to give your name and at least some proof of purchase.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

The key requirement stops the casual pirate. It requires at least minimal effort to access the full game without paying.

This is the major reason. If there were no key at all, it would take no effort to pirate. In fact, it would take substantial more effort not to pirate. Nobody would ever pay.

With the key, payment is easy and convenient. Pirating is possible, but you have to make a deliberate decision to do so and you have to expend effort on it. Conscience and effort versus thrift and theft is a much better matchup.

—Alorael, who thinks Spiderweb's DRM is as kind as any company's from the last decade. If you get a physical object, you own the game. Install it wherever and whenever you like. If you get a digital copy, you have to talk to the company. That's it. And to be fair, that's probably mostly because Spiderweb doesn't have any automation in its registration process.

[Faithful]

Originally Posted By: Improbable Causality

If there were no key at all, it would take no effort to pirate. In fact, it would take substantial more effort not to pirate. Nobody would ever pay.

Well, I wold pay if there were no DRM as I have for many games. I am assuming that you would pay as well.

Why does it have to be that people will automatically pirate unless there is some sort of DRM on a product.

I have stopped buying DRMed games for about 2 years now and I still buy plenty of games from places like GG, GOG, and various Independent developers.

Not once have I given a game away to another person (I have directed people to buy games I own), nor I have ever gone out and downloaded a pirated game.

There is no way I am the only one, and because I treat others with honesty, I am looking for the same in return.

DRM is DRM, it restricts the legitimate customer in some form or fashion otherwise it would have no purpose being there.

If Spiderweb rises and falls on a small but dedicated user base (albeit growing), then trust that user base, like they trust Spiderweb and keep buying the games from Spiderweb as they are produced.

Improbable Causality, are you honestly suggesting that all the users here cannot be trusted unless their game has DRM on it? Is the point you are making, that people that use Spiderweb games are nothing more than pirates at heart and just waiting for a chance to rip Jeff off?

I honestly think not, nor do I want to think this is your view.

If the users are not pirates, then get rid of the DRM and let paying customers use the game without being tethered to asking for codes and permission to install the game they purchased with their hard earned money.

[Dantius]

Depending on your definition of DRM, Jeff's games don't even have it at all. For instance, they don't require anything to play the game. No CD in the drive, no Internet connection, no personal representative from EA to stand behind you at all times when you play, no nothing. All you need is a one-off registration key if you want to buy the full version. And honestly, the free demo, which has no DRM at all, is much longer than many games I have played. So perhaps you could think of "obnoxious" in the "No obnoxious DRM" comment as mean "no DRM whatsoever, since DRM is obnoxious", as opposed to "Some DRM, but it's not obnoxious", which seems to be what you're interpreting it as.

 

Furthermore, I find that people like you (I'm stereotyping here, please beat me with a trout if I'm wrong) who complain about how DRM drives away paying customers, don't exactly put their money where their mouth is. If Jeff distributed all his games for free, with an addendum saying "Send in money if you liked it", would you cut Jeff a check for $1000? Or $100? Or even $28, which is what I believe the current price of the games are? Please don't respond to this observation in oh-so-holy righteous indignation, it's just meant to be something to think about. How could Jeff make a living if people didn't pay for his games? I believe he pulls in about 120k a year from game sales, and I find it hard- no, wait. It's impossible to pull in that much money on a no-strings-attached donation policy, simply because people are greedy and selfish.

[Faithful]

Dantius, your question is a fair one, but yes I would put up my money.

 

I have purchased the following over the last year or two.

 

 

• 57 games from GOG (obviously all DRM free)
• 40 Games from GG (all DRM free) Two presently on Pre-order that are DRM free Dungeon Defenders, and Recettear: An Item Shop's Tale.
• 12 or so games from various Independent developers (e.g. Aztaka, Aquaria, Armadeddon Empires, Crayon Physics Deluxe, Eschalon Book 1, Eschalon Book 2, Gratuitous Space Battles, and Spirit Engine 2) to name a few.
• Several productivity applications (in fact 1 today as it was DRM free) to support DRM free programs.

 

So, for me personally, I would buy the game(s) if they were DRM free. I just cannot bring myself to support DRMed gaming as it can only lead to further DRM on future games, which typically only gets worse over time.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Faithful

Why does it have to be that people will automatically pirate unless there is some sort of DRM on a product.

Welcome to human nature.

Originally Posted By: Faithful

Not once have I given a game away to another person (I have directed people to buy games I own), nor I have ever gone out and downloaded a pirated game.

You appear to be what statisticians affectionately refer to as an anomaly.

Originally Posted By: Faithful

Is the point you are making, that people that use Spiderweb games are nothing more than pirates at heart and just waiting for a chance to rip Jeff off?

There are a number of people on the forums here that genuinely appreciate Spiderweb. Most of us, probably, would pay regardless of DRM. However, we are not the only people who pay for Jeff's games. Jeff is trying to make a living, don't hate.

Edit:

Originally Posted By: Faithful

I just cannot bring myself to support DRMed gaming as it can only lead to further DRM on future games, which typically only gets worse over time.

No one here is making you buy the games. If you want the games, buy them. If you don't like the DRM, you can chose to buy the games and deal with it, or not buy the games and deal with it. Sorry if I seem harsh, but Jeff's DRM is minimal, no real inconvenience to me, and helps a man support his family.

[Faithful]

Master1, two things.

 

1. I am assuming you read my complete post so you know already there is no hate, only a question that I self answered. If you have not read it all, then please do so, before posting such remarks.

 

2. I have not bought the games as of yet, and the only way I might is to get the CD version of the game(s), but that is a wrestle for me personally.

 

I honestly do not think I am asking for a lot if the DRM is so minimal it can be considered no DRM by some anyway. If it is that trivial then simply do away with it altogether. You will not be any worse off, and Jeff would gain potentially more customers. Seems like a win-win situation to me.

[Niemand]

Quote:

I honestly do not think I am asking for a lot if the DRM is so minimal it can be considered no DRM by some anyway. If it is that trivial then simply do away with it altogether. You will not be any worse off, and Jeff would gain potentially more customers. Seems like a win-win situation to me.

This does not seem likely, for the reason Alorael described above: Paying requires some effort, and were there no DRM at all, the path of least resistance would be to use the game without paying. Some people would still want to do the right thing and pay, but I doubt that there would be more of them than people who just pay now.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Faithful

If it is that trivial then simply do away with it altogether. You will not be any worse off, and Jeff would gain potentially more customers. Seems like a win-win situation to me.

Here's the way I see things. [egotism] I am a smart person. I'm well-educated and I like to think of myself as tech-savvy[/egotism]. However, had you approached me when I (re)discovered Jeff's games about two years ago, I would have had no idea ow to get the games free online. I wouldn't have been able to find a .torrent or a keymaker to save my life. So I simply (and possibly naively) reached into my wallet and entered a few numbers into a few boxes. Later that month, I signed a piece of paper and a few numbers on another piece of paper got incrementally smaller. But, more importantly, I now had access to four new games! It was awesome. However, I'm also quite positive that, given the opportunity to get the game for free (and no, piracy is not "free", there's guilt and risk, if the game is offered free it's no risk or guilt), some part of my brain would have said "Screw this, I like having a number incrementally larger on that slip of paper I get every month", and taken the game for free and never looked back. Now while I might not be totally representative of every Spiderweb customer, I can absolutely, positively, guarantee you that Jeff would lose many times more money to people like me who said screw it, than he would gain to the handful of anti-DRM crusaders like you who would now buy his product.

It is, at its core, a business decision. And like the free market dictates, if you don't like it, you patronize somewhere else. But quite clearly many people think that Jeff is doing the right thing, otherwise he'd be out of business and we'd be out of a forum.

[Faithful]

Dantius, I know it is likely a trifling thing at this stage, but I want to say, I do not see myself as someone who is part of "anti-DRM crusaders" no mare than any here "DRM crusaders".

 

I was responding to what Jeff himself wrote in his blog, and posted as a link in the News section of the Spiderweb site. In fact it is the very first point of his 3-point Customer Service Promises.

 

I figure there would be no trouble to write about it since Jeff clearly understands the importance of not causing ill-effects via DRM on customers.

 

This thread has seemed to move from conversation, or dialog to me being outside the norm, and thus, take it or leave it.

 

I got it.

 

Thanks for writing back, and I will indeed hold off until such a time I might decide to buy the CD, or the game loses its DRM.

[Micawber]

Its the most benign DRM I've ever encountered. Once registered you can backup your key (along with your save files) so you never lose it. If you do mischance to lose it, the company will send you another on request. The games installed from the CD are permanently registered. This system is so customer friendly, if all DRM systems were like this the whole DRM debate would never have got off the ground.

[Lilith]

Every Spiderweb game uses exactly the same registration system that the very first one did over 15 years ago. So I'm sorry but I've gotta conclude that if you think his DRM is inevitably going to get worse over time, and that's your reason for not buying, then you're kind of paranoid.

 

Anyway, one reason he uses a registration key system is that it makes it seamless to switch from the demo to the full game: the demo is the full game, just with a restriction placed on it. Changing to a different purchase model would require users to mess around with reinstalling the game once they buy it. So what would be convenient for you is inconvenient for others.

 

It's inconvenient for Jeff, too, since changing his model means he'd need to find a way to securely distribute the whole full version of the game, which is a harder task than doing the same with just the registration key. And all for no real gain to the end user. You say you like GoG and GG, but think how much they spent to set up their secure download systems. It's probably more money than Jeff makes in a year.

[Lilith]

By the way, Jeff rarely reads these forums. You'd have better luck emailing him directly.

[Triumph]

Faithful...I'm confused. Do you want Jeff to let people download the full game for free, and then he can just hope that people will feel like paying him something someday? Exactly what are you advocating he do?

[Lilith]

at least you have good taste in games, recettear owns and i am super impatient for the full version to come out already

 

y'all should play it btw, it's an rpg about running an item shop and it's way more fun than that premise makes it sound

 

make sure to buy it on steam though, just to annoy the dude who posted this thread

[Faithful]

Originally Posted By: Triumph

Faithful...I'm confused. Do you want Jeff to let people download the full game for free, and then he can just hope that people will feel like paying him something someday? Exactly what are you advocating he do?

No, of course he deserves to be paid, all I would like to see is the DRM removed from the game.

[Triumph]

Okay...?

 

So should he offer the full game available for free download?

 

Or not offer downloadable demos at all?

 

Or create special demo programs, in addition to the game that don't contain the full game?

 

I'm not sure how Jeff can continue to provide the demos of his games that he does, and also NOT retain the password registration system.

[Aran]

SW's shareware barriers are not DRM in any commonly used sense of the term.

 

DRM is intended to prevent you from copying and distributing the game to others, or using an unauthorized copy. The shareware barrier isn't designed to do either of these. What it does, and is intended to do, is replace the physical medium of a CD - an ordinary, non copy-protected CD - with an online form of distribution.

 

If the Spiderweb games were distributed on CD only, without unlockable demos, then that wouldn't be called DRM. Adding the registration code mechanism does not add any restrictions, therefore that shouldn't be called DRM either.

 

Quote:

I'm not sure how Jeff can continue to provide the demos of his games that he does, and also NOT retain the password registration system.

 

That's easy: Instead of making the demo turn itself into the full game with a code, have two separate installers for the demo and the full game. This would make the process less convenient, but would be entirely possible.

[Slawbug]

What Arancaytar just said. Remember that DRM stands for Digital Rights Management. If it doesn't attempt to regulate your use of the files AFTER you have registered them, it isn't really DRM. Heck, even computer RPGs from the late 80's that required you to look up "the third word of the fifth paragraph of page 22 of the instruction manual" or whatever are a lot more restrictive than SW registration codes.

 

That said, I agree that the delay in waiting for a code can be annoying. Usually it's extremely short, but on some occasions it does take four or five days, mainly during vacations and holidays... which are precisely the time that many people start new computer games. 15 years ago the delay was painless, but today there are a plethora of online-registration games that give nearly instant access after you make a payment. The delay is what makes SW's system imperfect, not the registration code.

 

Originally Posted By: Lilith

at least you have good taste in games, recettear owns and i am super impatient for the full version to come out already

is it also way more fun than the recettear web site makes it look like? Really, it looks like they took the least interesting parts of Angband (haggling over prices and inventory management), magnified their importance, and then threw in a lot of generic-looking anime style illustrations. I am willing to be convinced it is cool, but tell me WHY, lilitu.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

is it also way more fun than the recettear web site makes it look like? Really, it looks like they took the least interesting parts of Angband (haggling over prices and inventory management), magnified their importance, and then threw in a lot of generic-looking anime style illustrations. I am willing to be convinced it is cool, but tell me WHY, lilitu.

i liked it but i also unironically thought those were the best two things about angband so ymmv

but seriously in addition to the shopkeeping stuff (which i enjoyed but which doesn't really have to take up that much time if you aren't fussy about making the absolute most amount of money possibfahahahahaha i almost forgot who i was talking to for a minute there) there's a bunch of fairly good 16-bit-zelda-style dungeon-crawling to get items to sell. and if you're good enough at the dungeon-crawling bit you can just sell everything at cost and bypass the haggling part altogether and still have more money than you need. there are other mechanics like item crafting that unlock as you get further into the game too

just play the demo ok. if you're not hooked after that then uh i guess it's not for you

[Slawbug]

16-bit-zelda-style is a very HIGH bar, sir. I'll try it, but we'll see.

[Alorael at Large]

Okay. Jeff lets you download the full game from the Spiderweb website (or wherever else). You can't play the full game, though, without getting a registration code. To get it, you have to pay. Once you have the code, the only time you need to contact Spiderweb for a new code is if your hard drive dies or if you switch operating systems.

 

What are the alternatives?

 

1. Jeff lets you download the full game, full stop. The likely result is that many people would download the full game and not bother paying. I'm not sure if this is just alien to you, but given the choice between figuring out how to pay, paying, and feeling good while continuing to play or just going ahead and playing the game, almost everyone will just play. Jeff would be making donationware, and donationware is no way to make a living.

 

2. Jeff lets you download a demo that contains only a partial game. If you want the full game, you can buy the CD or get access to a secure download. He's actually done this: Blades of Exile worked that way, and I believe the original Nethergate did as well (I don't actually remember a download, just a CD). The benefit of this over the registration system is... what? You have to wait for a human to process your order and then mail a CD at the worst, and you have to wait for a download at best. Most of the advantage can be obtained by just buying the CD, which Jeff already lets you do.

 

You've said yourself that you download games without DRM, but they have protection built into the fact that you have to pay to download them. Since you don't have to pay to download Jeff's games, he'd have to go for option 2 for you to purchase his games, and option 2 is under almost all circumstances more annoying than his current system.

 

—Alorael, who is going to go ahead and ask the question that he just can't figure out. What, exactly, bothers you about registration codes? Not DRM in general, but the codes that Jeff uses. What do you find so wrong about them?

[Faithful]

Originally Posted By: Improbable Causality

What, exactly, bothers you about registration codes? Not DRM in general, but the codes that Jeff uses. What do you find so wrong about them?

I honestly would not have a problem with a simple registration code. If I could buy the game, receive a registration code that would work for the game for life (no matter how many times I install or uninstall) I would have zero problem with that.

That is not what we are talking about though as best I can tell. The code is only good if your system does not change, or if you never install new hard drives, etc.

It is this level that I take issue with. A simple code would be very easy to deal with, buy the game, receive a code, finished.

That is about it.

[Alorael at Large]

I suppose that is a third option. Instead, you get a code that flags the game as registered. If you back up properly, you should have no problems transferring it to a new machine or restoring after a hard drive failure. It's only the platform switch that's still a problem, and since most computer games only run on one platform, and most that run on Mac as well require you to purchase the two versions separately, I again don't see the problem.

 

—Alorael, who supposes he's just baffled by your insistence on a moral stance over a trivial inconvenience. He has had to ask Spiderweb for new codes all of twice in sixteen years. Both times it's been a single phone call or email. That seems like a very minor price to pay to cut off low-hanging fruit piracy. A single code that unlocked the game would be leaked in minutes, and Googling a code is still easier than paying.

[Celtic Minstrel]

Originally Posted By: Faithful

I honestly would not have a problem with a simple registration code. If I could buy the game, receive a registration code that would work for the game for life (no matter how many times I install or uninstall) I would have zero problem with that.

Buying the CD sort of does that, I guess?

Originally Posted By: Faithful

That is not what we are talking about though as best I can tell. The code is only good if your system does not change, or if you never install new hard drives, etc.

It is this level that I take issue with. A simple code would be very easy to deal with, buy the game, receive a code, finished.

Ah, but in order for this to work, the code would need to be the same for everyone. Not very secure, eh?

Also, changing your system or installing a new hard drive shouldn't interfere with the code (unless you mean a drastic system change, like Windows to Mac); you just copy over the preferences file and BAM! You're still registered.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Faithful

I honestly would not have a problem with a simple registration code. If I could buy the game, receive a registration code that would work for the game for life (no matter how many times I install or uninstall) I would have zero problem with that.

That is not what we are talking about though as best I can tell. The code is only good if your system does not change, or if you never install new hard drives, etc.

...

Wha?

SW registration codes don't monitor system changes. At all. The only real way to unregister it is to mess with or lose a specific game file. Now, if you're switching computers entirely, I can see where this can cause a hiccup (or if you have a crash that wipes out hard drive data), but DRM it ain't.

EDIT: Semi-sniped.

[Rowen]

If you change computers or have to wipe your HD, email Jeff at spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com and explain the situation. After showing that you have in fact bought a copy of the game its wont be to difficult to get it reregistered again. All it requires is some patience.

 

I had no idea that the registration code was such a horrible DRM. I thought having to login to an online server every time I wanted to play a single player game was annoying, but I guess entering a one time key beats that by a mile.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Celtic Minstrel

Originally Posted By: Faithful

I honestly would not have a problem with a simple registration code. If I could buy the game, receive a registration code that would work for the game for life (no matter how many times I install or uninstall) I would have zero problem with that.

Buying the CD sort of does that, I guess?

Not "sort of does that", "does exactly that". Faithful, just buy the games you want on CD and you won't ever need to worry about registration codes and keys.

Dikiyoba.

[Slawbug]

Re: Recettear

 

I downloaded and played through the demo. I have to admit that this is much better than the flurry of open-a-store indie games that have been around the last few years, and I will say that I like it better than Harvest Moon, too. And the haggling is more limited, and therefore much less annoying, than in Angband.

 

That said, I have three issues with the game:

 

1) The game is all about optimization, obviously; yet the optimization is just a matter of trying to conform as closely as possible to unseen formulae. I'm not talking just about setting prices here, but also about what items to stock, where to put them, and so on. This is much less complex, and therefore less interesting, than what goes on in SimCity, or in a good theory-relevant game like Settlers of Catan, or for that matter in a higher-calibre RPG.

 

2) The combat portion isn't bad, but it doesn't come anywhere near the 16-bit Zelda comment you made. The worst thing here is the emphasis placed on being exactly the right distance from a monster: too close and you're hit, too far and your own strike misses. The sweet spot is relatively small given the movement controls, and even though it isn't difficult to find, this is a frustrating and not endearing play control issue.

 

3) For all the unseen formulae, the economic mechanics of the game are blatantly absurd. It's not quite as bad as Taloon's chapter in Dragon Warrior 4, but it's the next worst example I can think of. Since economics is the major focus of the game, this is a problem.

[Dantius]

Since it hasn't been explicitly and unequivocally stated yet to Faithful, it's quite possible to have the register once and done system you wanted. The Preferences file controls all aspects of registration. Just copy that file over to a flash drive or SD card, and then you can register and activate the game as many times on as many computers as you want, no charge, no strings attached. You can even redownload the game if your system is wiped and then just use your copy of the preferences file to activate it and register it for free. It seems to me that that's exactly what you are looking for.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

1) The game is all about optimization, obviously; yet the optimization is just a matter of trying to conform as closely as possible to unseen formulae. I'm not talking just about setting prices here, but also about what items to stock, where to put them, and so on. This is much less complex, and therefore less interesting, than what goes on in SimCity, or in a good theory-relevant game like Settlers of Catan, or for that matter in a higher-calibre RPG.

there's actually been a lot of mechanics dissection of the demo going on already. admittedly it's not that complicated but it's not as simple as it looks, and there are ways to deduce a lot of the underlying formulae. there are tradeoffs, too, like between making the most money on each sale and keeping customers happy so they'll shop there more often. plus there's optimisation on a macro level, like what to do with each time slice in your day, which is definitely not just about plugging numbers into formulas

Quote:

2) The combat portion isn't bad, but it doesn't come anywhere near the 16-bit Zelda comment you made. The worst thing here is the emphasis placed on being exactly the right distance from a monster: too close and you're hit, too far and your own strike misses. The sweet spot is relatively small given the movement controls, and even though it isn't difficult to find, this is a frustrating and not endearing play control issue.

i said it was the same style, not that it was as good. it's definitely simplified and can be annoying until you get the hang of it. it plays better with a controller than a keyboard fwiw, and some of the other adventurers you can unlock beyond the first one are more interesting to play.

Quote:

3) For all the unseen formulae, the economic mechanics of the game are blatantly absurd. It's not quite as bad as Taloon's chapter in Dragon Warrior 4, but it's the next worst example I can think of. Since economics is the major focus of the game, this is a problem.

are you serious

i mean i'm not personally offended if you don't think the game is worth buying and i don't stand to make any money by shilling it or anything, but complaining about a lack of economic realism in an RPG is sort of like complaining about all the water while SCUBA diving

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

there are tradeoffs, too, like between making the most money on each sale and keeping customers happy so they'll shop there more often. plus there's optimisation on a macro level, like what to do with each time slice in your day, which is definitely not just about plugging numbers into formulas

Unless what I've seen is unrepresentative, the difference in potential sell values is small enough, percentagewise, that it's got to be less worthwhile than keeping customers happy so they come frequently. You buy from stores at 70% the base value (less than that if someone sells to you) and can easily sell for at least 125% the base value, so that's a pretty high profit margin without needing to push anything.

The time slice thing could be interesting, but keep in mind there are really just 3 options: sell stuff for 1 slice, buy stuff for 1 slice, or get loot from adventuring for 2 slices. All three generate profit (counting both cash and items as profit, which is not how the score screen counts it), but depending on different things. For selling, it depends on what you have in the store, your customer relations and merchant skill level and so on, but profit will be somewhere between 0 and 30%+ the value of the stuff you have on display. For buying, it's a flat 30% of what you buy and there is no limit beyond what the merchants have in stock, so you are better off doing as much buying as possible at once -- although I guess buying tons of goods does require you to spend slices selling to actually realize that 30% of profit on them. Then for adventuring, you get stuff for free, and assuming you don't die, the quantity depends mainly on what dungeons you've previously completed, and therefore the best one you currently have access to, I take it?

So the time slice thing is really a simple one-variable optimization. There are a few restrictions, like needing to balance time spent buying/adventuring with time spent selling in order to realize profit from both, but that balances almost by itself; and the time-of-day restrictions, and things you might do to advance the storyline, or your merchant skill, or whatever -- those are pretty minor. I suspect that adventuring is the most lucrative and it's really a question of balancing that with selling, and then using slices to buy when it seems most optimal in order to blow cash, fill orders, or do town stuff to advance the story.

Originally Posted By: Lilith

complaining about a lack of economic realism in an RPG is sort of like complaining about all the water while SCUBA diving

But this isn't a regular RPG, it's an economic RPG with strong (but largely optional) Action-RPG elements:

Originally Posted By: Slarties

Since economics is the major focus of the game, this is a problem.

I think the better analogy would be complaining about the LACK of water while scuba diving in an empty swimming pool.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

The time slice thing could be interesting, but keep in mind there are really just 3 options: sell stuff for 1 slice, buy stuff for 1 slice, or get loot from adventuring for 2 slices.

keep in mind that going into town to buy stuff for a time slice also allows you to see special events, some of which (besides being amusing) apparently have major effects later on.

[Aran]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

That said, I agree that the delay in waiting for a code can be annoying. Usually it's extremely short, but on some occasions it does take four or five days, mainly during vacations and holidays... which are precisely the time that many people start new computer games. 15 years ago the delay was painless, but today there are a plethora of online-registration games that give nearly instant access after you make a payment. The delay is what makes SW's system imperfect, not the registration code.

That one is even avoidable by automating things. It's impossible to speed up a non-credit-card transaction; that will always take days. But a credit card payment could technically result in a code within minutes.

That automation would introduce complications, though, and remove the human touch from buying from SW that I've always found appealing.

[Slawbug]

Honestly, it seems like people can usually cope with waiting 1 or 2 days. But I totally understand the irritation generated when a new game is released the week before Thanksgiving, you buy it on Thanksgiving, and don't get the registration code until four days later. That's a little ridiculous. Similarly, when you buy a game Friday afternoon and don't get the code until Monday, that's not great either.

 

I think it would be a wise investment to spend an hour or two dealing with built-up credit card transactions, at least, one extra day during weekends and vacations.

[Celtic Minstrel]

Originally Posted By: Dantius

The Preferences file controls all aspects of registration. Just copy that file over to a flash drive or SD card, and then you can register and activate the game as many times on as many computers as you want, no charge, no strings attached. You can even redownload the game if your system is wiped and then just use your copy of the preferences file to activate it and register it for free.

The only time this would not work is if you change operating systems, but having the CD would solve that as well.

[VCH]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

a good theory-relevant game like Settlers of Catan

You're joking right? That game is all about getting the best spots on the board early.

[Dintiradan]

Yeah, who gets to place the initial settlements when is huge in Settlers. But the reason it's so huge is because of supply and demand. Ideally, you want to take a resource that's only good in one spot; that way, you have a 'monopoly' on the resource. Even after ports enter the picture, most of the trading for that resource is going through you.

 

Obviously, get every resource and port if the board and players allow you to. But you can't guarantee that every game, so often how you trade will make or break the game.

[RCCCL]

I've always felt that Catan depended mostly on the dice rolls.

[Aran]

Originally Posted By: RCCCL

I've always felt that Catan depended mostly on the dice rolls.

Only if the board puts roughly even scarcity on every resource. If all wood hexes are under 2/3/11/12 numbers, then no amount of luck will keep wood from being valuable throughout the game...

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: VCH

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

a good theory-relevant game like Settlers of Catan

You're joking right? That game is all about getting the best spots on the board early.

If you think Settlers is only about getting the best spots on the board early, then you haven't been playing against strong opponents.

[VCH]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

Originally Posted By: VCH

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

a good theory-relevant game like Settlers of Catan

You're joking right? That game is all about getting the best spots on the board early.

If you think Settlers is only about getting the best spots on the board early, then you haven't been playing against strong opponents.

I would crush you

that is a challenge

[Faithful]

Since this thread has gone from DRM to board games check out Board Game Geek site. Direct link to Settlers of Catan page

[VCH]

Battlestar Galactica is an awesome game, if anyone is looking for something to try.

[Faithful]

Originally Posted By: VCH

Battlestar Galactica is an awesome game, if anyone is looking for something to try.

At one time I owned about 125 or so board games, sold them off do not buy any more and have about 12 left. It was an addiction on my part to keep buying the new games and all the expansions. Also, I enjoyed collecting some of the older games (still have Mosby's Raiders). Fun hobby, but way too many games to buy and play.

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: VCH

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

Originally Posted By: VCH

a good theory-relevant game like Settlers of Catan

You're joking right? That game is all about getting the best spots on the board early.

If you think Settlers is only about getting the best spots on the board early, then you haven't been playing against strong opponents.

I would crush you

that is a challenge
Socratic moment: if you are so certain that you can crush me, then surely the game isn't all about getting the best spots on the board early. Or did you mean "I would crush you... unless the turn order is more advantageous for you"?

[RCCCL]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

Or did you mean "I would crush you... unless the turn order is more advantageous for you"?

Or possibly, "unless the 9's that you have and I don't roll more often than any other number."

[Andraste]

If you like Settlers of Catan, I'd recommended Dominion and all of its expansions. It's fantastic and has tons of re playability.