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mini map...


rythus
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Well, with the new screenshots I see that the minimap hasn't changed from avernum 6, and I'm wondering why.

I thought that the lack of detail of the new minimap in avernum 6 might have been due to time constraints or something, but with the new game I expected that there would have been a much better minimap.

 

Ever since avernum 4, the minimap system has been getting worse, maybe people just didn't appreciate the minimap as much as I did and so it was decided that the time spent on it wasn't very efficient. With the new minimap in avernum 4 and 5, there was significantly less detail and the entire map lost its usually vibrant colors and became rather bland, and thus, for me at at least, the gameplay felt the same. Then with 6, all the detail was scraped as well as most of the fog of war mechanic. I would say the minimap was pretty much the whole reason why I didn't really play the new avernum games after the first trilogy.

 

It seems like it will take a while for Avadon to come out, so does anyone think there might be some further work in the minimap till then? I would like to think so but I don't want to get my hopes up.

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I heartily agree. I'll gladly join a campaign requesting a return to the older maps. The mini-map opening up as you travel across an area is one of the things which gives the game beauty, and a bit of detail and colour is so much more enjoyable.

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Originally Posted By: Celtic Minstrel
I think Rythus is just a bit behind; he's referring to the same screenshots that were put up around when the game was announced.


Yea, your right. Haven't checked the website for like a month so the screenshots were new to me grin
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The old minimaps were really, really nice. Almost too nice, though. Less detail is fine for me but I wish they would at least have explored land colored in so we can tell what we explored, rather than just have the walls. I've mentioned this often enough now, though, that I feel like a broken record. frown

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This is something that there seems to be near unanimous agreement on, but I think the map is decided. Not because it couldn't be changed, but I strongly suspect that Jeff prefers it this way, because at a glance it looks more polished and professional.

 

On the other hand, broken record suggesting did eventually lead to G4 fixing the old encumbrance system.

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Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
This is something that there seems to be near unanimous agreement on, but I think the map is decided. Not because it couldn't be changed, but I strongly suspect that Jeff prefers it this way, because at a glance it looks more polished and professional.


Do you at least know whether or not he'll fix the issue with explored versus unexplored land on the minimap? I could care less what it looks like, I just want the thing to be functional.
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Jeff didn't make the current minimap the way he did out of laziness. Instead, I believe he had a number of desiderata in mind:

1. The current minimap looks professional and elegant, and avoids potentially-clashing graphics juxtapositions.

2. The current minimap stays out of the way. (Thanks to consuming minimal screen real estate, and being partially transparent.)

3. The current minimap presents the information the party needs for navigation in a minimally-confusing way. (For navigation, you need to know about obstacles and potential destinations. Anything else is noise.)

4. The current minimap avoids straining the graphics processors of older computers. (Given Jeff's engine, stacking a bunch of tiny partially-transparent graphics on top of a large, potentially-animated terrain graphic is not a good idea. So the fewer things the minimap shows, the better.)

 

-----

 

My suggestion: keep the current minimap as it is, but add a new "zoom out" button that temporarily shows a bird's eye view of the zone. It could facilitate exploring by distinguishing floors from unexplored areas. It could be large and show lots of detail, so be very pretty. It could be full-screen and non-transparent, so avoid issues of clashing graphics and cpu strain.

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That zoom out thing sounds difficult to program, an since it's not completely necessary I'm gonna take an educated guess based on Jeff's previous actions and say he won't do anything flashy like that.

 

I'm a geneforge guy, and the new map style hasn't bothered me as much, however more details in the mini-map is something that I was expecting from his future games.

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Why not just make explored areas and unexplored areas a different color. That's easier than having to use a special feature to see what areas are unexplored. There are enough people complaining about the mini-map that it's clear that it's poorly designed.

 

Dikiyoba.

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I've gotten permission from Jeff to pass on this email exchange I had with him during the Avernum 6 beta:

Originally Posted By: Jeff Vogel
Originally Posted By: ThirdParty
I find it annoying that unexplored space on the automap looks the same as ground--it makes it harder to tell where I've been and where I haven't.
It is annoying, but drawing something for every spot gives an FPS hit. It's a lot of little draws. Right now I don't have a solution.
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Aw, man. It doesn't have to be like the old colorful maps, which were overly detailed (I remember for the real heavily wooded areas of Nethergate and Avernum 3 I'd use the minimap instead of the normal view to get around, but that seems unnecessary now that outdoors are gone). Honestly, just coloring explored land a slightly darker grey would be fine. That would make the map more useful, not too easy, and it probably wouldn't hurt the graphics much at all.

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Well, good to know Jeff is broadly in agreement about the explored vs unexplored areas.

 

I wish I understood the technomological side of it so that I could come up with a magical solution. Failing that I suppose I could offer to draw by hand every area at every possible stage of exploration. Shouldn't take too long?

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Hmm, interesting. Given the simplicity of the current automap (monocolor squares) I am guessing that just adding more squares that need to be shaded would cause an FPS hit as well. Assuming movement is Geneforge-style and not Avernum-style, I can at least sort of understand why this might happen.

 

The "hit a button to pause and bring up a larger automap with explored areas shaded" idea still seems like it could work, though.

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Originally Posted By: The Ratt
I think he meant G3. The G key and the T key are right next to each other.

I am wondering why he just doesn't do the mini-map like G5. I never had any trouble navigating with that.


Yeah, I've memorized the number keys and their shift symbols, so when someone says A@, I know what they mean.

9It's handy for parentheses, too0
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Originally Posted By: Dantius
Originally Posted By: The Ratt
I think he meant G3. The G key and the T key are right next to each other.

I am wondering why he just doesn't do the mini-map like G5. I never had any trouble navigating with that.


Yeah, I've memorized the number keys and their shift symbols, so when someone says A@, I know what they mean.

9It's handy for parentheses, too0


Not so easy if you use a German keyboard...
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