The Placebo Effect.

[Cthulhu]

It seems to me that having knowledge regarding the placebo effect disallows for the effect itself to affect you.

 

For example: If someone is constantly told a certain drink would vastly improve their reflexes, and said person genuinely believes it and consumes the aforementioned drink, their mind will react to the consumption of the drink by improving one's reflexes, methinks. Now if the same individual then learns of the placebo effect, I believe the knowledge of the effect will cancel out any changes brought about by the people constantly telling the person about the drink.

 

This might not make sense to you guys, it started sounding weird to me towards the end, but I hope you guys get the gist of it.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Cthulhu

It seems to me that having knowledge regarding the placebo effect disallows for the effect itself to affect you.

Incorrect. As knowledge of the placebo effect has spread amongst patients and those who would consume them, the effectiveness of the placebo has actually increased. Psychology works in funny ways.

[Student of Trinity]

Keep in mind that placebo effects are limited, pretty much to what your emotions can do for you. Believing that you've taken a helpful drug makes you happy, relaxed, and optimistic. And those things can improve your condition, up to a point. That's all it is; it's not really mind-over-matter achieving miracles.

 

I am a little concerned, though, about how far placebo awareness has spread among those who are out to consume patients.

[Enraged Slith]

See, you just don't believe enough.

[Cthulhu]

Originally Posted By: Dantius

Originally Posted By: Cthulhu

It seems to me that having knowledge regarding the placebo effect disallows for the effect itself to affect you.

Incorrect. As knowledge of the placebo effect has spread amongst patients and those who would consume them, the effectiveness of the placebo has actually increased. Psychology works in funny ways.

That's epic!

[Alorael at Large]

Not really. Tell someone that the placebo effect works and offer a placebo, and their expectations of efficacy make the placebo efficacious.

 

—Alorael, who is in favor of placebos. In fact, he self-prescribes and administers placebos constantly. Did you know that eating chocolate and an apple immediately after waking up improves alertness, focus, and mood for up to 24 hours? Try it!

[Cthulhu]

Will do!

Did YOU know that Gatorade improves athletic performance by 10%?!

[The Ninjas Doom]

wow! and i drinktat every day! who would of thought!

 

did you know that play ing jeffs games makes you more alert focist and prodoctive for a month and 1 day?

[Cthulhu]

Well then, good sir, I've got to play them more often methinks.

[Dintiradan]

FDA Approves Sale Of Prescription Placebo

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Dintiradan

Originally Posted By: The Onion

FDA Approves Sale Of Prescription Placebo

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Dintiradan

Onion link

What's next? Cracked.com being considered as reliable a news source as FOX? The Daily show being more trusted than CNN? No, wait. I actually think both those are true...

Wow. That's scary.

[Dintiradan]

...

 

Okay people, I know what The Onion is.

 

EDIT: That said, this is lulzy.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Dintiradan

Okay people, I know what The Onion is.

Yes, I was mostly pointing it out for anyone who didn't know.

[waterplant]

Does anyone know if it's possible to O.D. on placebos?

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: waterplant

Does anyone know if it's possible to O.D. on placebos?

It depends upon the actual placebo. If it's an alcohol based liquid then sure. Pure sugar pills are probably safe.

[waterplant]

If the placebo works purely on the patient believing the medication works, then if the patient is told of potentially harmful or fatal side-effects is it too much of a stretch to say that a patient could experience those harmful effects?

[Student of Trinity]

The placebo effect cannot do harm, because if it does it's called the nocebo effect. In principle the same principle should apply. So never drink anything that you suspect might be poisonous, unless you seriously distrust your own judgement about poisons (so you figure it's probably safe despite your fears) but highly trust your own judgement about your own judgement about poisons (so you don't start worrying that maybe it's bad after all). In which case, with all those conflicting layers of confidence and self-doubt, you probably have some serious issues quite apart from possibly drinking poison, and you ought to skip the possible poison and have a nice cup of tea instead just to calm down.

[Artemis~]

I once heard this story about a teacher who was told by scientists that a group of 3 random students would be Einsteins when then grew up. She then unconsciously gave them all higher scores, even though what they were told was a load of crap. So, it works psychologically as well as physically. Cool, huh?

 

~Artemis and cool. She's not. Yet.

 

[Student of Trinity]

I've heard this called the 'halo effect'. I've also heard a teacher explain how he occasionally uses it in reverse: give a mediocre paper a good grade, to make the student think of themselves as smart. As I recall, the guy said he rarely did this, and was well aware of all the ways it could go wrong. But he claimed that in some cases it worked well, not because it really made the student any smarter than they were, but because it gave them confidence, and they became more willing to work hard once they felt the work would pay off.

 

It's also true that if teachers really do have brilliant kids in their classes, they usually don't guess who they are.

[waterplant]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

The placebo effect cannot do harm, because if it does it's called the nocebo effect. In principle the same principle should apply. So never drink anything that you suspect might be poisonous, unless you seriously distrust your own judgement about poisons (so you figure it's probably safe despite your fears) but highly trust your own judgement about your own judgement about poisons (so you don't start worrying that maybe it's bad after all). In which case, with all those conflicting layers of confidence and self-doubt, you probably have some serious issues quite apart from possibly drinking poison, and you ought to skip the possible poison and have a nice cup of tea instead just to calm down.

I think I need a cup of tea and to calm down...

[La paix]

See also Placebo. Strange how for a drug to work, our brain must have receptors for it, implying that every drug in the world is also in our brain. Harnessing the power of the placebo effect is quite difficult, but has a lot of potential, though I doubt it can ever replace regular medicine, since the effects wear off more quickly.

 

If I may, I recommend this show in the highest regards. (Oh, and that stuff about believing The Onion was funny. And sad. Also, I've never heard of noncebo, sounds interesting.)

[Niemand]

Quote:

Strange how for a drug to work, our brain must have receptors for it, implying that every drug in the world is also in our brain.

I'd say you're thinking about it backwards. The brain contains various receptors, so any chemical which binds to one or more of those receptors can act as a drug. There can be numerous chemicals which bind to any given receptor, usually because they share common components (side-groups and whatnot); each receptor exists in the body because one or more chemicals that the body uses binds to it, but we can also find additional chemicals which will also do so, and use them to manipulate the systems which hinge on those receptors.

[Alorael at Large]

1. Not all drugs affect the brain. Or nerves in general.

 

2. A compound could bind to receptors anywhere on the receptor, or it could bind to the neurotransmitters themselves. And consider the relative size of a molecule and a receptor.

 

—Alorael, who would like to caution those giving out better grades as encouragement. Remember that applauding hard work results in more hard work, but applauding achievements results in less hard work. Only give those good grades when you know that student poured a little more of himself into that particular attempt.

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: Cthulhu

It seems to me that having knowledge regarding the placebo effect disallows for the effect itself to affect you.

Knowing that you're taking a placebo can reduce or even negate the placebo effect. Knowledge of the placebo effect, however, doesn't necessarily diminish the effect itself.

[Niemand]

Originally Posted By: Alorael

1. Not all drugs affect the brain. Or nerves in general.

2. A compound could bind to receptors anywhere on the receptor, or it could bind to the neurotransmitters themselves. And consider the relative size of a molecule and a receptor.

Very definitely. In case it wasn't clear, I was merely attempting to address the narrow case of drugs which interact with receptor mechanisms in the brain, since that was what Fractal chose to comment on.

Originally Posted By: Alorael

Remember that applauding hard work results in more hard work, but applauding achievements results in less hard work.

While I realize it isn't what you mean[^1], it sounds like your goal is to maximize wasted labor.

[^1]: I now expect you to maintain that this is, in fact, exactly what you meant.

[waterplant]

Originally Posted By: The Stone of Stone

1. Not all drugs affect the brain.

Everything affects the brain. Nothing can be perceived internally or externally without the brain knowing about it and being actively involved in processing. The brain is Master, the CPU but it can be tricked - by, of course, placebo. This is what placebo is. A good example is how a box containing a specially placed mirror can be successful in treating phantom pain from amputated limbs.

[La paix]

I was simply paraphrasing the radio show, in which the expert (don't remember his name) does indeed more specifically state that in order for certain drugs to work, they have to have receptors in the brain. (i.e., yes, not all drugs affect the brain or nerves, or even work.) As for his allusion that all drugs are in the brain, I think he meant that if we could directly control the receptors and transmitters of the brain, it would almost be as if many drugs were in the brain, ripe for the using. The very trick of which waterplant speaks is also covered in the show, by its inventor (also can't recall the name here). Odd how we begin talking of "the brain" and "the master" even though it is from that very place that these words spring. We may think we're in control, yet we are so easily tricked by simple placebos. Another interesting example of placebo found on this radio show is medical hypnosis. A doctor removed a never-before-cured dermatological disease from a patient using nothing more than hypnosis, but could never duplicate the magic again.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: waterplant

Everything affects the brain. Nothing can be perceived internally or externally without the brain knowing about it and being actively involved in processing.

That's not really the same thing. If that were the case, your neighbors' repainting their house would also affect your brain as soon as you perceive it. While this is, in a sense, true, that's not the same as psychoactivity and you know it.

—Alorael, who of course meant that praise reduces the amount of hard work to be done. He just left out the fact that he meant hard work to be done by him. Getting others to do more work lessens your load!

[waterplant]

Sure. Our 'use it or lose it' brain doesn't just see 'house, new paint'. This observation begins a myriad of reactions - many of which aren't obvious consciously e.g. 'great job! this improves the value of the houses around it' or 'crappy job! he always looked like a bit of an idiot and this reinforces my prejudice' or 'geez I'd better get on to my place now as it looks drab next to his' and so on. If you notice it you process it and all incoming information passes through neurological filters that detect danger, beauty, like, dislike etc.

 

Basically what I mean is that, biologically, humans are brains residing in a life support system covered in sensory receptors (organs).

 

Break an ear and you can replace it and still hear. Disconnect the ear from the brain and you can't hear even if the ear is functioning perfectly. We hear with our brains not with our ears is what I'm saying - the ear is just the organ.

 

Reading this you are not just receiving a new perspective but possibly judging what you read (and me) as plausible, coherent, ridiculous or whatever based on previous information you have received, processed and stored. What you see beyond 'house, new paint' is dependent on what your brain does with this information. You might only see all the mistakes in your neighbour's work is you hate the guy. Follow?

 

 

This goes for everything we ever perceive, encounter and think.

[Slawbug]

It seems to me that you are conflating the mental processing that the brain is responsible for, with consciousness.

[waterplant]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

It seems to me that you are conflating the mental processing that the brain is responsible for, with consciousness.

Quite possibly I am. However I'm not sure of the meaning of your statement - could you expand a little please?

[Alorael at Large]

My issue is entirely separate. A medical effect is not the same as any and all effects. We'd have to give up meaningful discussion of a lot of systems neuroscience for lack of ways to distinguish between the brain and the rest of the universe. Or, more particularly, my brain and the rest of the universe.

 

—Alorael, who has no desire on any level for neuroscientific solipsism.

[waterplant]

Originally Posted By: Double Up

A medical effect is not the same as any and all effects.

Medical effects are separate from all other effects?(??) Fair enough...

[K_I_L_E_R]

Imagine scientists find out that the complexity of our brains comes from lots of simple structures, wouldn't that be funny?