Sony patents 'erosionware'.

[Fanatic]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6253022.html

 

Sony has patented game demos from which features and functionality 'erode' over time.

 

Imagine: as you play Avernum, the Shareware Demon's army advances, taking its terrible black abyss with it, swallowing countryside and city alike!

[The Mystic]

That type of demo would actually make me think twice about downloading it in the first place, or even cause me not to want whatever product is offered in the demo. The negatives of erosionware are endless.

 

What do you do when you download a game demo, play for an hour, and then can't get back to it for two weeks? Is your saved game erased, if you could save at all? Are you now in an area that's closed off due to the "erosion"? Do you have to reinstall the game to continue your progress? Do the features "erode" over time, or the area you're limited to--or both?

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Huh?

 

There has been x-day free trialware around for over a decade. Hell, even MS Office, as pre-loaded on my laptop, has features that have disappeared over time since I lost the key. How can a patent be issued on this?

[keira]

This is stupid. Next thing you know, they'll be patenting your genome sequence. Oh wait.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: The Mystic

What do you do when you download a game demo, play for an hour, and then can't get back to it for two weeks? Is your saved game erased, if you could save at all? Are you now in an area that's closed off due to the "erosion"? Do you have to reinstall the game to continue your progress? Do the features "erode" over time, or the area you're limited to--or both?

It seems pretty clear that the intension is to erode over time spent playing the game, not calendar time. And while the patent seems to be over a very broad idea, not an implementation (a bit odd...), it's not the same as the usual 30 day trials, which are entirely binary.

The bigger issues seem to be the brief mention of the game becoming more expensive at it erodes, which just seems like a terrible plan from a marketing perspective, and possibly losing the cool things that make people want to play in the first place. And it could happen before they're even seen!

That sad, used cleverly, it could be a good trick. Give someone, say, five arenas for deathmatch and they'll enjoy them. Reduce that to zero and they'll just stop playing. Reduce it to one, though, and you might get people who still play but who remember having other fun levels to play in. That might bring in more purchases.

—Alorael, who suspects that the erosionware model would work well for games relying on modular elements. Levels, arenas, classes, equipment, whatever. For a game to be played sequentially, like any campaign or story mode, or just about any single-player RPG, erosion of areas is a bad idea. Fortunately, there are other things to erode, or demos can keep on just being what you download.

[Spidweb]

I find this whole idea just ... odd. The whole idea of a demo is that it's your sales pitch. You're putting your best foot forward. If an idea is awesome enough to be in the demo, DON'T TAKE IT OUT!

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Alorael at Large]

If it's awesome enough to be a selling point, put it in the demo! But if it's awesome enough to be a selling point and it's in the demo, why buy the rest of the game when you already have the good stuff? Erosionware lets you give the bait and take it away. I can see the appeal.

 

—Alorael, who can actually see this working well for giving the full version as a demo and then having it degrade to a standard demo version. Again, it wouldn't work for everything, but it might do fine for, say, Team Fortress or The Sims.

[keira]

I know I wouldn't buy a game if the demo crumbled before my eyes, if only because it was crumbling before my eyes.

 

Next thing you know, car dealerships will pick up on the idea. Your brakes will stop working halfway through the test drive.

[Enraged Slith]

This sounds like one of those 'brilliant solutions' that get lost on the way and forget the problem they are initially trying to solve.

[RCCCL]

There was already talk of using technology/programing such as this for music and movies.

 

If someone is finally applying for a patent, that really opens the door for implementation. Imagine that song you just downloaded from Itunes degrading after 3 months, the only way you can listen to it is to re purchase it.

 

Of course in that case, it only drives up the number of people who will steal it, which is probably the only reason such things haven't been done yet.

[Fanatic]

Of course, it could be a possibility that Sony's actually trying to do a good turn by sitting on this patent just to make sure no other company can do this...

 

But, considering this is the company that put rootkits on our computers...

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: I need an introduction

Next thing you know, car dealerships will pick up on the idea. Your brakes will stop working halfway through the test drive.

Now that most car systems are computerized, they are timed to the car warranty to fail just after the warranty period expires. Toyota's cars had a software flaw that caused them to fail before the warranty was up.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: RCCCL

Imagine that song you just downloaded from Itunes degrading after 3 months, the only way you can listen to it is to re purchase it.

Conceivable, but that's really not what the patent claims to be for. It's for demos. A purchase is not a demo. Who would buy something temporarily?

For something like Netflix, on the other hand, it would work perfectly. You could rent a download! The only problem is that music and video are far too easy to record while you're playing them.

—Alorael, who can't wait for the warranties and insurance that degrades. After five years, only procedures above the waist are covered. After ten, only the neck and up. After fifteen, you can get a haircut and that's it.

[Triumph]

Originally Posted By: Starbreak Scattershot

Conceivable, but that's really not what the patent claims to be for. It's for demos. A purchase is not a demo. Who would buy something temporarily?

Auto leases.

[Celtic Minstrel]

That's not buying something. It's leasing.

[Triumph]

That was my point...leasing some things is awfully similar to buying it temporarily...

[Celtic Minstrel]

I'd rate it closer to renting.

[Alorael at Large]

But the point of both renting and leasing is that you aren't expecting permanent ownership. You could also lease or rent games by erosion. You pay a fee, you get the game, and over time you have less of it. Why that instead of a standard binary have, don't have rental? I have no idea. That's marketing's job.

 

—Alorael, who certainly doesn't expect this to make demos worse. Better demos are better selling points.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Originally Posted By: I need an introduction

Next thing you know, car dealerships will pick up on the idea. Your brakes will stop working halfway through the test drive.

Now that most car systems are computerized, they are timed to the car warranty to fail just after the warranty period expires. Toyota's cars had a software flaw that caused them to fail before the warranty was up.

Okay, new rule. No posting the comments that I would post were I not at school. Mmk?

Originally Posted By: Starbreak Scattershot

Who would buy something temporarily?

Food.

[waterplant]

I can't see how a demo eroding would make you buy the game. If I play a demo I like then I buy the game. If I feel like I am being pushed into buying something then I am less likely to buy it because I don't want to deal with business' who operate this way. Is it such a big deal that someone might play a demo multiple times?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Master1

Originally Posted By: Starbreak Scattershot

Who would buy something temporarily?

Food.

Eww.

Dikiyoba wouldn't mind functionality in demos decreasing over time so much, but increasing prompts to buy the game over time would be hugely annoying. And probably counterproductive.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: waterplant

I can't see how a demo eroding would make you buy the game. If I play a demo I like then I buy the game. If I feel like I am being pushed into buying something then I am less likely to buy it because I don't want to deal with business' who operate this way. Is it such a big deal that someone might play a demo multiple times?

Rather than envisioning companies taking more away, imagine them giving more but only for a while. Suppose that company X releases game Y. They don't want to give it away, so they create a demo containing only content C. With an eroding demo, they can instead include C plus eroding content E. After some time you only have C again, but you had E for a while. You are strictly gaining from the erosion model.

—Alorael, who doesn't understand how he has become the demo erosion apologist. Or why erosion seems so offensive, really.

[Rowen]

On one hand we have demo eroding and on the other Captain Hector blows up your ship. I hated that parrot.

[keira]

Alorael, imagine someone hands you a delicious cheeseburger. You sit down to enjoy it. As soon as you take a bite, it turns into a disgusting tofu burger.

[Sudanna]

I like tofu.

[The Ninjas Doom]

whats tofu

[Acky]

Now you're just &!*@ing with us.

[Dintiradan]

Alorael, you're expecting people to be rational. People aren't going to see it as getting something extra, then losing that bonus. Instinctively, they're going to see it as their product getting worse over time.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the concept, but I think 'gradual degradation' is something to be avoided. The demo should make it clear when you're playing with all the bells and whistles, and when that expires, it should clearly say, "Thanks for playing! Please order! As a token of our gratitude, enjoy this trial version!"

 

It might be better to have the demo start with the stripped down version, and at any time the user can upgrade to the full version for one day. This would work great for multiplayer games. A bunch of users can get the game separately, play around with it for a bit, then all activate the full versions for one day so they can play a LAN party.

[Alorael at Large]

Oh, sure. There are a lot of terrible ways to use erosionware. I just also see a lot of better ways to use it. I can't be baffled by rage combined with blinkered pessimist after years slogging through the sludge of the net, but sometimes I'm just more baffled than other times.

 

—Alorael, who would rather have a bite of delicious cheeseburger than only tofu burger. That is, in fact, what free samples in stores are all about, and they apparently work well enough to keep happening. Oh, and actually a retraction is necessary: he doesn't really want a tofu burger, but he doesn't want a cheeseburger either. How about chocolate covered raisins that have less and less chocolate covering them as you get to the bottom of the box?

[grasshopper]

I'd say the reason behind this erosionware idea is that Sony know exactly how very addictive computer games can be. Drug pushers use exactly the same method to get the weak and innocent hooked on their goods. Give good quality to begin with, then water it down until they are begging you for the good stuff.

 

From what Jeff just said, Spiderweb seems to see itself as a provider of fun, rather than of addiction. I think that is a nicer way to be.

[waterplant]

Originally Posted By: New J

—Alorael, who doesn't understand how he has become the demo erosion apologist. Or why erosion seems so offensive, really.

I don't find demo erosion offensive, just unnecessarily negative. The people who get punished are those who genuinely can't afford to buy games.

[Student of Trinity]

But game companies are not charities dedicated to entertaining people too poor to buy games. Logically and legally, a game company owes nothing whatever to anyone who is completely unable to ever buy their products.

 

One could say, to hell with capitalism and free markets, there's a higher obligation to society, let's compel companies to provide free handouts to the poor. OK, maybe; but if we're going to do that, video games are not the first place to start. How about food, shelter, and medical care coming first? Make McDonalds give free demo fries, make Holiday Inn Express provide free demo beds, make pharmacies donate free demo prescription medication.

 

If that doesn't sound practical, why hassle the game companies for being less generous with something that's much less important?

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

make pharmacies donate free demo prescription medication

you know that pharmaceutical companies actually do this right

[Xelgion]

No. Even if it did "add" content like Alorael says, I would feel that companies who would do such a thing, and who would then pop up more and more "Buy our game!" messages to be completely counter-productive.

Originally Posted By: New J

Rather than envisioning companies taking more away, imagine them giving more but only for a while. Suppose that company X releases game Y. They don't want to give it away, so they create a demo containing only content C. With an eroding demo, they can instead include C plus eroding content E. After some time you only have C again, but you had E for a while. You are strictly gaining from the erosion model.

Thing is, you're assuming two things.

 

A) The company put "E" into the demo which they wouldn't of otherwise

They don't erode content "C"

 

If they erode content "C" you just feel more rushed when playing a game. When I am playing the demo for Geneforge, do I want the features of creations, spells, and dialogue to appear as I go along the first few zones? By the time I was almost done with the demo, I would have about a minute of broken gameplay with then about 5 minutes of "Buy now!" messages popping up. And there are ways you can tantalize people without having the new content be seen, then erode away. For example, at the end of the G4 demo, you stop at the shaper town, and then it stops, you get all these lovely goodies and no one to use them on. For me, it was a great pull factor for me to buy the game. Heck, if Jeff really wanted to dangle sweet goodies in front of the player's mouth then snatch them away, he would of made it stop right before the new town, which as any player knows, always has new goodies of all sorts.

 

But then take a look at erosion, the new content would be barely accessible, then dissipate, and then the base demo would start to dissipate as well, leaving gamers agitated and annoyed, especially with the frequent pop-ups. I would rather have a fully functional demo of Geneforge rather than have a demo of Geneforge which included a few more zones, but by the time you got to those zones, your characters creations, armor, and weapons all disappeared.

[Alorael at Large]

If it agitates and annoys gamers and they're angry at the company, they're likely to refuse to buy the game. The company loses. If their tantalized and interested, they will buy the game. The company obviously wants the latter.

 

There will be marketing disasters with erosion, of course. Companies make mistakes all the time. But you are assuming the worst case scenario will be the norm. Jeff could have rigged Geneforge to erode if he'd thought of it. Maybe he didn't, but he's also already said in this thread that he has absolutely no interest in doing so. Why? Presumably because, as you note, that's not advertising, it's just irritating. Rushing people and harassing them with popups isn't a winning strategy, and I'm pretty sure even the most borderline competent companies can figure that out. Don't expect the worst!

 

—Alorael, who is unused to being the optimist. He'll enjoy it while he can. He'll also note that erosion doesn't necessarily have to be time-based rather than progress-based, it almost certainly won't result in "broken gameplay" (as broken means lost sales), and "buy now!" popups are already quite possible and yet quite rare. Don't expect new demo capabilities to produce old stupidity again.

[Lazarus.]

I'm with Alo on this one, the way I read this it looks like it's intended to allow companies to show you more of their game without actually giving it away, rather than a way to screw you out of what little demo you're already getting.

 

I think the reason people here aren't feeling it is because they have spiderweb's demos in mind when reading this. And yes, I think this idea would suck super hard if applied to an RPG or adventure game or something similar, where you basically would have a set amount of time to experience as much as you could before the demo diminishes to nothing. But when applied to a shooter or simulator or sport game, where the attraction isn't really experiencing something once but rather doing the same thing over and over, I think it has potential.

[waterplant]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

But game companies are not charities dedicated to entertaining people too poor to buy games. Logically and legally, a game company owes nothing whatever to anyone who is completely unable to ever buy their products.

One could say, to hell with capitalism and free markets, there's a higher obligation to society, let's compel companies to provide free handouts to the poor. OK, maybe; but if we're going to do that, video games are not the first place to start. How about food, shelter, and medical care coming first? Make McDonalds give free demo fries, make Holiday Inn Express provide free demo beds, make pharmacies donate free demo prescription medication.

If that doesn't sound practical, why hassle the game companies for being less generous with something that's much less important?

Sorry matey but I think you're taking this to an extreme. My point is that the demo is probably the best advertising/marketing tool in the gaming industry - it works and it EXISTS - but to then to deliberately create something that actively restricts the best sales pitch the company has (i.e. their game) reflects poorly on the company. Those kids will get a job one day and perhaps they will support companies that weren't so stingy with stuff that is supposed to be free anyway.
And, by the way, most of the things you listed happen in some way - ever had a McDonald's voucher?