difference between avernums

[goblindolf]

Hello!

 

So I plan to play through avernum 1-6 + blades of avernum and I know the engine changes a lot through the series.

 

1) For which games do traits really hurt your leveling?

 

2) Are bows competitive with melee in any of the games?

 

3) Does it ever make sense in any of the games to have a seperate mage and priest, and continue dumping the rest of your points into skills to make those spells better? Or do spells/skill cost scale in such a way that you should make each caster take both?

[Lilith]

1) Avernum 1, 2 and 3, and Blades of Avernum. It's still viable to take beneficial traits with experience penalties in those games, but it's also viable not to. In Avernum 4-6, there's not much of a downside to taking experience penalties.

 

2) They certainly are in Blades of Avernum, thanks to overpowered bows in the scenarios Canopy and Exodus. They're not that bad in the first three games but keeping track of ammo is a pain. They're really quite good in Avernum 4, but they're just okay in 5 and 6.

 

3) A general rule of thumb that applies to most games is that mages should normally have priest spells, but priests don't need to have mage spells.

[Randomizer]

3) Spells change dramatically after Avernum 3/Blades of Avernum so starting with Avernum 4 read the spell descriptions in the instructions/manual. In the early games higher levels of a spell do additional or different effects while the later games just increase damage or spell duration.

[goblindolf]

Oh, is the reason for 3) so the mage can heal when needed?

 

But there are some damaging priest spells so they don't need to get mage spells for damage? What spell is usually aimed for.

 

I plan to play on torment if that makes a difference

[Alorael at Large]

Mages help with buffing as well. I'm a fan of making my mages priests and my priests mages.

 

The real benefit is that spells are spells. Mages have energy and might as well have the ability to heal. Priests can wear armor, and so you might want to make their secondary role something other than more casting, especially since their casting is more self-sufficient than mages'.

 

—Alorael, who still likes mage-priests for when you absolutely must haste everyone and then dump lightning on everyone.

[Randomizer]

Priest get cold (smite) and fire (divine fire and divine retribution) plus repel spirit for undead and demons at level 3 in the older games. So lightning is a great spell for priests to get with mage spells.

 

Mages have enough damage type spells that healing and repel spirit are the main priest spells for them.

 

You want to be able to have more than one character that can heal for when you take massive amounts of damage. In the older games casting haste is the other spell that needs more than one caster.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

don't forget avatar

[Mordea]

Originally Posted By: goblindolf

Hello!

So I plan to play through avernum 1-6 + blades of avernum and I know the engine changes a lot through the series.

1) For which games do traits really hurt your leveling?

I'm not sure about A1-A3, but I do know that in A4 and A5, XP gain is dynamic. Any XP penalty is balanced out by the fact that you're actually gaining more total XP from killing a monster due to your slightly lower level. You'll progress a little more slowly, but at the end of the game when everyone is earning 0 XP, you should be roughly the same level as your other party members. Icewind Dale II had a similar concept in regards to ECL races.

Quote:

2) Are bows competitive with melee in any of the games?

In A1-A3, bows were vastly inferior to melee. In A4, heartstriker has a damage multiplier that outstrips melee and pole arms. In A5, bows are definitely competitive with melee and pole arms. Their damage die is equal to melee, and only slightly less than pole arms. They don't benefit from quick action, but in return they grant you more tactical opportunities.

Quote:

3) Does it ever make sense in any of the games to have a seperate mage and priest, and continue dumping the rest of your points into skills to make those spells better? Or do spells/skill cost scale in such a way that you should make each caster take both?

The latter. All skills in Avernum are subject to diminishing returns, as you've already observed. That isn't to say that a jack of all trades character is optimal, but investing 20 skill points to bump your spell damage up by 1% is just silly when you could use those same points to increase bow damage by 20%.

[DokEnkephalin]

Imo, it's best to train everyone in the first couple levels of mage and priest spells, that way you can spread the MP and AP costs around and save your specialists for when the real power is needed.

[Catweasle]

Originally Posted By: DokEnkephalin

Imo, it's best to train everyone in the first couple levels of mage and priest spells, that way you can spread the MP and AP costs around and save your specialists for when the real power is needed.

I agree thoroughly. I have only played A1 -- A3 but in these games there is another advantage in having warriors with a few spell points: they suck up the Dumbfounding and Spell-Draining attacks from Gazers and Mung Demons leaving your spell casters free to heal or otherwise repair the warriors.

I have written some further notes about the subject in my walkthroughs.

[Ishad Nha]

Also they can haste the entire party on their first move. Almost never will their first move make any great difference by itself, so it is no great cost.

[jecowa]

Training In Intellect is about the same as training in Priest or Mage, except training in Priest or Mage also makes your spells stronger. Intellect, Priest, and Mage all equally help your maximum mana. So, if it costs 10 skill points for another rank of Intellect, but only 5 skill points for a rank of Priest, It would be better to get two ranks of the Priest because it will give you twice as much mana as that one rank of Intellect.

 

So, in conclusion, in my opinion, your priest and mage should have some points in the other magic skill. You could combine them and just have one caster, but I prefer having two casters.