Starting to hate this game ...

[MissSea]

As I continue this game, I'm feeling a bit like Sisyphus, rolling my boulder up and down that hill. I feel that -- on EASY, mind you -- A5 is simply not for the casual RPGer.

 

I flew through A4, not knowing anything about building my party or training in stats (other than mage or priest skills). In fact, I accidentally made my one of my characters both mage AND priest. But if I'm playing A5 on easy and already jumping into the script to change how many skill points my knowledge crystals kick out, there's a problem. If a player selects level "easy", it should be relatively simple. Having sentinels killing you with one ranged attack isn't easy.

 

This is my second game from Spiderweb, but if A6 is anything like A5, I'm not going to buy it.

 

This was previously discussed in another thread here. Rather than resurrect a dead post, I figured I'd just link.

 

Of note, I just read the update on A6 (November) that states the levels have been ... well ... leveled. That's good to hear. I'll probably try the demo, but I'm especially wary about paying ~$30 for it, as I got A4 from BFG for $6 and loved it, and paid $28 for A5 and am ready to throw my monitor through my window.

[Randomizer]

Jeff made one major change between A4 and A5 and that was to remove the health bonus from essence armor. In A6 he completely elininated augmentation. This means no more glass cannons where you deal out major damage but have almost no health.

 

Endurance is needed to get through the games even on easy (casual) difficulty. Try to have endurance at 6 by the middle of the game and you should be able to survive a single hit. You need more for harder difficulties.

 

Some monsters like sentinels have weaker melee attacks, but closing with them isn't alway possible.

 

The game can be fun, but you can't quite go with too bad a character build and survive. Running characters with both mage and priest spells is usally great because you can always cast the best spell for the situation.

[MissSea]

Thanks for the good advice, Randomizer. Maybe I exaggerated a bit when I said I was being taken out with one hit. All of my party is at least level 8 endurance at Tranquility (which isn't even halfway through the game).

 

I know I'm complaining, but nowhere in A4 was there a point when I said, "That's it! I've had it! I'm done!" I'm about two sentinels away from that point now.

[Dikiyoba]

Yeah, A5 is the one Spiderweb game that I thought would end up being really good based on the demo and then I ended up hating it by the time I was halfway through the game.

 

Fortunately, Spiderweb does have a refund policy, so if the game doesn't get any better for you, you can return it.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Student of Trinity]

You could also just fire up the character editor, give everyone 20 endurance, and carry on. It sounds as though maybe Jeff didn't really make easy all that easy; but you can make it as easy as it should have been, yourself, using the editor. Then you still get to explore the world and see the story, and see whether that's worthwhile for you, before going for the refund.

[Sade]

I recently completed Avernum 5 with an Anama party on Torment difficulty. At the end I had a total of ~500 unused skill points, and I still found the game to be almost boringly easy at some points. And I'm not any kind of min-maxer at all.

 

So, on Easy difficulty, I'd say that a normal 4-character party should be able to complete the game as long as you won't spend your skill points extremely badly (eg. putting all of them into lore skills or something).

 

However, when I played Avernum 5 through for my first time, I also felt that the game was ridiculously hard on any difficulty. I guess it's all about experience. As the say, practice makes perfect.

[Randomizer]

Some fights really become simple with tricks to avoid damage like the Slith Horror won't attack if you use an area effect attack that just hits it with the edge instead of closing with it. The first time through the game can be an experience with finding these monsters that just won't die to normal hack and slash.

[MissSea]

@Sade: Precisely! Some parts are MINDNUMBINGLY easy. Drake Pillars? Could have slept through it. Northern Isles? No problem. But the extremely sharp learning curve once you hit those sentinels ... whew! I guess my gripe is that a casual RPGer shouldn't have to know ANYTHING about building a party. Just a bit of strength to carry decent armor, endurance to build your HP and mage/priest skills for healing and major defense later on.

 

@Dikiyoba: I want to support independent gaming. I won't ask for a refund. I'll confess I didn't try the demo for A5, but it wouldn't have helped anyway. The demo ends at the Harston Docks. But I will be a bit more cautious before jumping into A6. Jeff was smart to offer A4 on Big Fish. It's just the sort of involved RPG a casual gamer like me could enjoy.

 

@Student of Trilogy: I think I may take your advice. I've already maxed out my wisdom crystals. Maybe I'll go back into an old save file and tamper a bit with how many knowledge points they give and pump it up.

 

Thanks everyone!

[Jerakeen]

Originally Posted By: MissSea

Maybe I'll go back into an old save file and tamper a bit with how many knowledge points they give and pump it up.

Wouldn't it be simpler to just use the editor?

[MissSea]

Is the editor something different? I thought going into script files was the editor. Please clarify. Thanks!

[Jerakeen]

Press shift+d and type in "editor".

 

You can raise your skills without the need for "those annoying skill points".

 

[Spidweb]

Easy difficulty halves all enemy health and damage, which should easy carry you through the game. You did say that everything earlier was super-easy, which, on Easy, is at is should be. You can't hold against me the game being easy when it's set on Easy. :-)

 

But there is one exception. If you fight monsters which you really shouldn't be fighting, you can still lose.

 

You say that you are in Tranquility. What sentinels are killing you? Remember, the sentinels in the different quadrants will attack you unless you have the bracelet you need to pass them. If sentinels are attacking you in a certain area, go talk to Solberg. Even on Easy, the southeast sentinels will keep you from leaving until you help Solberg with his problem.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[MissSea]

I definitely heeded Solberg's advice about the sentinels. I didn't venture into the NE because I "accidentally" triggered them when I went to kill Moref and got pwn'd by them before I could run. Henceforth, I stay away from that area (I can always come back later). The games are really great in letting you know, "Hey! You shouldn't be here! Back the heck up!"

 

No, when I wrote this message, I had just entered the Sentinel Workshop. I didn't figure out the ranged vs. close attack strategy, so after the fiery and crystal sentinels destroyed me, I was getting frustrated.

 

I'm currently in Anama, beating up on the chitrachs -- again, it's not hard. Just like I expect. I'm following a walkthrough, and I'm pretty sure what I'm to expect in just a bit, which really depresses me.

 

I've thought, "Maybe I'm frustrated because this is hard." But in reality, though the workshop sentinels were difficult, the strategy I figured out eventually got me past them. You all are so right: the games aren't hard, if you figure out the strategy to defeat the current monster at hand.

 

No, what I've figured out is, as an Empire soldier, I'm hated and reviled NO MATTER WHAT. I hate that feeling. Especially now that I'm in Anama. So, knowing beforehand that the job I'm about to do won't win me any fans, really chafes.

[Jerakeen]

Same reason I despise playing Nethergate as Romans.

 

However, in this case you have the option to at least be ethical invaders, even if nobody appreciates it.

[*i]

You joined the Anama...oh dear, your game experience is about to get MUCH harder than had you not done that.

[Acky]

You can go talk to a mage in Azura Valley to get your geas removed though. I've never done it (as I've never joined them), so I don't know what it takes.

[Randomizer]

Leaving the Anama is easy except you have to relearn spells. The hard part is fighting your way through the Howling Depths and across the Azure Gallery to Shafrir.

 

You can finish the game as an Anama, but it is much harder as several magical barriers will not be removed by piercing crystals.

[Jerakeen]

MissSea might just mean that she's in Anama lands, not that she's joined them. Maybe.

[MissSea]

Turtle's right. I didn't join, I had just arrived in the town. I learned early on to "keep your options open" when playing these games. No, the depression comes from the bait-and-switch the town pulled on me. I went back, fully intending on wreaking havoc, but the priest guy seemed so pathetic, I caved.

 

I also am trying to do as Turtle mentioned: be ethical (hence, the caving). Follow the empress's example. Though she's on my list, too. From the dialogue with General Redmark, she doesn't sound like a spring chicken. She couldn't have thought, "Hey, I'm nearing my sixties/seventies/eighties. I don't have an heir! Let's save everyone a WHOLE lot of trouble and pick one out!" Royals ...

 

Many thanks for the character editor advice, by the by. I was tempted to max everything out, but thought better and decided to just pump my spellcast and endurance a bit.

[Erebus the Black]

picking heirs isn't as easy as you'd think

[Jerakeen]

Originally Posted By: MissSea

No, what I've figured out is, as an Empire soldier, I'm hated and reviled NO MATTER WHAT. I hate that feeling.

Anyway, if this is your problem, then you should go ahead and buy A6. You'll like it a lot better.

[Student of Trinity]

If you're sensitive to this role-playing kind of thing, then I think the way to go with A5 is to take your mission really seriously. The Empress is important for Empire and Avernum both, and this vile traitor Dorikas attacked her. Your job is to hunt him down, wherever he goes, no matter what. Don't think about exploring the nice world, or meeting the nice people; you're just passing through on the hunt.

 

I found by thinking this way that I was just happy when people weren't actually attacking me; it didn't occur to me to want them to be warm and friendly.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

If you're sensitive to this role-playing kind of thing, then I think the way to go with A5 is to take your mission really seriously. The Empress is important for Empire and Avernum both, and this vile traitor Dorikas attacked her. Your job is to hunt him down, wherever he goes, no matter what. Don't think about exploring the nice world, or meeting the nice people; you're just passing through on the hunt.

I found by thinking this way that I was just happy when people weren't actually attacking me; it didn't occur to me to want them to be warm and friendly.

Seems like it would hard to justify a lot of the sidequests if one took this approach.

[Student of Trinity]

A lot of them are valuable means to the end of getting onwards. And since you don't know where Dorikas is, you're going to have to search around a lot anyway; no harm collecting extra supplies while doing so. But yeah, some things you may need to leave out.

[Mordea]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

A lot of them are valuable means to the end of getting onwards. And since you don't know where Dorikas is, you're going to have to search around a lot anyway; no harm collecting extra supplies while doing so. But yeah, some things you may need to leave out.

But I think you're missing the whole point of the game. You can't pursue Dorikas and remain separate from the Avernites and their troubles, you must get involved in order to achieve your objective. The game is essentially about how the PCs hunt for Dorikas results in their lives becoming 'tied' to the Avernites, for better or worse.

[Rionep Ecnirp Etlevs]

Originally Posted By: Sade

I recently completed Avernum 5 with an Anama party on Torment difficulty. At the end I had a total of ~500 unused skill points, ... And I'm not any kind of min-maxer at all.

I know I'm grave-digging, but HOW the heck is this done?

[MissSea]

Student of Trinity, that's pretty much what I've done -- stayed out of it. And Mordea's absolutely right: At some point, you have to make a choice. I've left most of the Azure Gallery unfinished because at some point, I have to piss someone off.

 

Awful as it sounds, I really don't mind offing the giants. Perhaps it's some sort of discrimination on my part, but I wasn't a fan of them in A4. I really despise the folks in Highground, but I understand their position. I want to help the good folks of Muck, but the Vahnatai wouldn't appreciate it. I refuse to off everyone (though that might be interesting at some point to replay).

 

This is like high school all over again! Alienate one group, they may be the person you need to beg for notes or borrow last week's quiz answers. Tick off another group, be prepared to spend a lot of Fridays and Saturdays alone.

[Dikiyoba]

Luckily, you can set the giants on Muck for the vahnatai (and Highground?), get your reward, and then kill the giants for Muck without the vahnatai noticing.

 

Dikiyoba is pretty sure that's how it works, anyway. It's been a while.

[MissSea]

So offing the folks of Highground and the giants doesn't make the Vahnatai happy? I mean, isn't two out three better than none out of three?

[Jerakeen]

Highground and the Giants seem to be content to stay where they are. It's Muck that's threatening to impinge on Vahnatai territory.

 

Leaving the Azure Gallery unfinished until after you've spoken to the Vahnatai is actually a good strategy, since--as Dikiyoba points out--you can then have your cake and eat it too. Fulfilling Highground's giant quest also satisfies the Vahnatai. Then killing the giant queen cancels the threat to Muck and fulfills their quest, without angering the Vahnatai. Highground notices, but the consequences are minor.

[madrigan]

I do the same thing every time through the game: Kill the giant queen, tell the mayor of Highground about it just to rub it in their collective face, refuse the Vahnatai's Muck quest, and then just before I leave the Vahnatai lands go back and steal Highground's entire secret treasury.

 

The last time I also went back through the giants' fort and killed every living thing in it as well as every giant along the road from Highground to Muck.

 

From a role-playing perspective, I assume that my characters are young and still a bit idealistic, and when left on their own they decide to take sides in the most insistent way possible. I think that's quite plausible. A lot of real people, if they had the power to intervene effectively in a situation like that, would do so.

[Earth]

madrigan's way is darkside loyalist's way.

[Sade]

Originally Posted By: Svelte Prince Penoir

Originally Posted By: Sade

I recently completed Avernum 5 with an Anama party on Torment difficulty. At the end I had a total of ~500 unused skill points, ... And I'm not any kind of min-maxer at all.

I know I'm grave-digging, but HOW the heck is this done?

By using certain clever strategies.

Spiderweb Software's games have the same problem as most of the other RPG games I've played: with basic, casual playing style, they may seem quite hard, but serious exploiting of near-cheating features makes them alot easier.

With these features, I don't mean using editor, cheat codes, etc. Instead they involve doing what you are not actually supposed to do, kind of thinking outside the box.

Here are some (spoiler-filled) examples from Avernum 5:

¤ Spray some Acid on a super powerful boss monster (SPBM) that would 1-hit KO you if it got the chance, run around the corner, and wait until it's dead
¤ Blast SPBM with an AOE spell like Divine Fire or Fireblast so that it doesn't see you, and it won't retaliate
¤ Block SPBM from attacking/escaping with summons, (N)PCs or certain environmental objects: you can even trap Dorikas into some of his fortress's side rooms using Dionicio
¤ Tactical withdrawals: damage Gelmax the Bandit until he summons his swarm of bats, escape to town, return, kill one bat, escape to town, return, etc.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Sade

¤ Spray some Acid on a super powerful boss monster (SPBM) that would 1-hit KO you if it got the chance, run around the corner, and wait until it's dead

¤ Tactical withdrawals: damage Gelmax the Bandit until he summons his swarm of bats, escape to town, return, kill one bat, escape to town, return, etc.

Jeff in Geneforge 5 got rid of the first exploit by reducing/eliminating acid damage if you didn't stay around.

In the second exploit certain monsters disappear if you return to town so save before the fight.

There is another exploit of using summoned creatures, either your own or charmed enemies, to close with the SPBM so it attacks them instead of your while you attack from a distance.

[Student of Trinity]

I don't know if this is an exploit, exactly, but charming spells still seem to work well on Torment, and they let you take control of a monster that has its health and damage pumped up to Torment level. This is the only way to get the Torment multipliers to work for you instead of against you, but it works really well. It's worth it even if it takes several attempts to succeed, because if nothing else one charmed enemy can often tie up several uncharmed ones.

 

Also, a lot of enemy spellcasters actually seem to be vulnerable to charming, and they will then bestow their powerful buffs on you instead of your enemies. The monsters they summon will unfortunately still be hostile to you; but that also means their monsters are hostile to them, and since they appear right next to them, these summons generally immediately attack the charmed enemy who summoned them. Often you can get an enemy spellcaster to eliminate themselves with their own summoning, while giving you a couple of really long-lasting buffs before they die. You'll probably have to recharm them once or twice, because on Torment these guys can hold up for quite a few rounds even under constant attack by several of their own powerful summons, and your first charm will wear off before they go down.

[The Mystic]

Of course charming works on Torment; every spell works if you can cast it at a strong enough level, regardless of the difficulty setting. I've charmed enemies several times in the Avernum series, and it yields much better results than in the Exile trilogy.

[Student of Trinity]

Charm resistance does not get cranked up on Torment the way health and damage do, at least not as far as I can tell. Thus it continues to work about as well as it does on lower difficulties — unlike pretty near everything else you can do.

 

Of course it could just be that it doesn't get cranked up enough to overcome my huge Spellcraft from DT and singleton XP, so I'm thinking it's staying the same. But the point still stands that, without having to do anything special to focus on charm power, I can charm as well on Torment as on Normal — whereas all my damage spells are proportionately much less effective on Torment, because the monsters are all so much tougher.

 

The result is that on Torment you should be charming not just several times in the game, but many times in most fights.

[Mordea]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

Charm resistance does not get cranked up on Torment the way health and damage do, at least not as far as I can tell. Thus it continues to work about as well as it does on lower difficulties — unlike pretty near everything else you can do.

Of course it could just be that it doesn't get cranked up enough to overcome my huge Spellcraft from DT and singleton XP, so I'm thinking it's staying the same. But the point still stands that, without having to do anything special to focus on charm power, I can charm as well on Torment as on Normal — whereas all my damage spells are proportionately much less effective on Torment, because the monsters are all so much tougher.

The result is that on Torment you should be charming not just several times, but many times in most fights.

Exactly. From what I have seen, mental resistance does not change between difficulty levels. Strong Daze, Terror and Charm Foe make an impossible game winnable.

[Sade]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

The result is that on Torment you should be charming not just several times, but many times in most fights.

Umm, pardon my ignorance, but what is the difference between charming "several" and "many" times in most fights?

[Student of Trinity]

Mystic has charmed enemies several times in the whole Avernum series; I recommend doing it many times in each fight.

[Metatron]

Note that charming doesn't work so well when you're in the real world, fighting with a significant other. For different platforms, use different tactics.

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

Mystic has charmed enemies several times in the whole Avernum series; I recommend doing it many times in each fight.

Yes, it's nice to be healed and/or buffed by a charmed enemy spellcaster; just make sure you're able to take him down when the charm wears off.

[Øther]

Most of the time I try to charm spellcasters or priests, they resist my spell, no matter how many times I cast it.

[The Mystic]

But it can be done. It depends on how strong your charm spell is vs. the targeted mage/priest's resistance to charming. I'd tell you the formula, but I don't know it or care to know it.