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Alcritas

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Originally Posted By: Dantius
What was the last game you played that posed any philosophical or ethical questions that it didn't simultaneously answer? Game designers don't usually leave you hanging, which is what makes Jeff special.

That's one word for it. I imagine you'd love Chrono Cross then, which is about as morally frustrating as any game I can imagine. For more JRPGs, look at Live-a-Live and Treasure of the Rudras, both on the SNES.

That said, let's not overrate the philosophical genius of the Geneforge series. The ethical questions mostly end up boiling down to very broad stroke ideas like "do you have a responsibility to help others" or "how much control is ideal in a society" or "when is violence justified" and occasionally statements like "doesn't it suck how life is miserable for the majority of the population no matter what happens."
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Hi, TW! A few of us remember you.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't see moral complexities in Geneforge. They all boil down to gray. You can't make a good or evil choice (barring Taygen). You just get choices. The near total absence of good and evil is rather unusual, but it is not philosophically deep. Other games sometimes have more philosophy to them, but they more often concern the nature of good and evil.

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This has turned into an interesting discussion, and I'd like to try to contribute my opinion.

 

Originally Posted By: EDTA for the Ages
—Alorael, who doesn't see moral complexities in Geneforge. They all boil down to gray. You can't make a good or evil choice (barring Taygen). You just get choices. The near total absence of good and evil is rather unusual, but it is not philosophically deep. Other games sometimes have more philosophy to them, but they more often concern the nature of good and evil.

 

This. I was always disappointed by the lack real good and evil options in Geneforge. Such choices exist in real life--those choices may not always be obvious, and/or not be satisfying to everyone all the time, but they do exist, and it would have been nice to have such options alongside the "gray" ones. I think maybe G1 and G2 got a little closer to this by allowing you to refuse to join any faction if you so desired.

 

I also question whether Avernum has moral choices, but they just aren't framed as "Choose philosophical issue response 1, 2, or 3," like in Geneforge. The first thing that springs to mind is the kleptomania Avernum seems to encourage--robbing every other person you meet throughout the realm, or at least having the option of doing so, certainly is moral issue. Then there are all the people and creatures you optionally fight: some may be obviously evil and thus deserve it, but otherwise, from a role-playing point of view, one could stop and consider whether hunting down this or that person just for a reward or to grow stronger is really moral.

 

Finally, I mention Nethergate: Resurrection (fun stuff), which stands distinct from Geneforge and Avernum in giving relatively straightforward "good" AND "evil" moral choices, with specific rewards for those choices. So it's got more explicit moral choices than Avernum, but not the messy gray, hmm, complexity, perhaps, of Geneforge. A third possibility indeed.

 

Finally, to conclude my ramble, it seems to my like gray morality and not-purely-heroic protagonists seem to be quite common today in a variety of media (video games, but also movies and television and books). The rise of the anti-hero in literature is rather fascinating, and it seems quite widespread in culture today. Now, such other non-computer-game media may not always use the "pick from these moral/philosophical choices" format of Geneforge, but that doesn't make them any less purveyors of gray morality issues. If anything, I'd say games with straightforward heroes and villains, the former clearly in the right and the latter clearly evil, are increasingly uncommon, as least from what I've observed (of course, "as far as I can see" isn't really all that far). Geneforge may be unique in the way it explicitly raises gray moral issues and forces the player to consider them, but it's not unique when it comes morally gray games or media.

 

Triumph

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Originally Posted By: Ishad Nha
Changing the subject, does Alcritas want to try his hand at writing Blades of Avernum scenarios? We have new edition editors for that, to make it all the easier. How would he like the BoA engine, which I figure lives up to about half its potential.


hahahahahahahahaha
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Originally Posted By: Randomizer
Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba
Eep! Where are you all coming from?

Dikiyoba.


It's old member month.


On that note, Hi, how you all doing?

Originally Posted By: llloyd
I keep feeling more and more like i'm the only person who really likes Geneforge, to the point of saying it's the best game in universe, but avernum/Exile, not so much. and for all the oldbies who are coming back...hi...that's all is suppose...for now.


I am an oldie in terms of playing these games, not in terms of these forums, but I played Exile back in it's original release, and yet I like Geneforge better. So you're not alone. smile
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Responding to the few comments actually releveant to me...

 

By the way, if you've changed your name, I don't know who you are.

 

VCH wrote...

>>There's something to be said for just getting your book out there. Maybe let that one out the door see what people say and get on with another one. At some point it is what it is , and further revision wont change that.>>

 

>>other similiar positive comments>>

 

But you see the problem is, while I've written (I'm guessing) around 900 pages, they're all the same three chapter beginnings. Well, I mean I've tinkered around with things a ton, but they're all the opening chapters.

 

The overwhelming problem I'm running into is just this ridiculous narrative dump. I mean, I have to introduce all the characters, the "rules of the world" (e.g., magic, deities, etc..), the geo-political situation, history, and so forth. Making matters worse, I have things plotted out so far in advance, that I want to introduce characters early on, who won't become important for literally several novels down the road.

 

Anyway, I haven't given up. In fact, the last several days I've been writing a lot... starting anew, of course. But it feels like rooting for the Cubs to win the World Series. Sometimes, they look like they have a good team, and get off to a real good start. But there's that history to overcome...

 

 

Ishad Nha wrote..

>>Changing the subject, does Alcritas want to try his hand at writing Blades of Avernum scenarios? We have new edition editors for that, to make it all the easier. How would he like the BoA engine, which I figure lives up to about half its potential.>>

 

then Thuryl wrote...

 

>>hahahahahahahahaha>>

 

then Ephesos wrote...

 

>>Been a while since I've said this, but I second Thuryl on this one.>>

 

 

Let's see, the answer to this is complicated.

 

BLUF: I won't be designing in BOA (or BOE).

 

1. It's mostly an issue of time allocation. I don't have as much free time as I used to have (unfortunate byproduct of getting older/having a career/etc..); and, moreover, what time I do have I'd rather spend on something with tangible (read $$) benefits to me. BOE was fun, I'm proud of what I accomplished, but it's in the past.

 

2. I have thought back on my scenarios now and again over the years. My main thought it, if I had to do them over again, man, they'd be so much better. laugh

 

3. I've toyed with the idea of going into programming itself. Honestly, stumbling onto JV's periodically excellent blog is what brought me back here to begin with. Little known fact - even before BOE, I used to design silly little mostly text games when I was a kid. Anyway, the bottom line is, this is something I'm toying with doing - ten or fifteen years from now; and probably would be contigent on my writing experiment finally failing.

 

 

Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall of text!

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