A6 - The powergaming discussion (spoilers)

[SevenMass]

Hi all, Avernum is back, and I'm back. I guess I must be a loyal costumer...

 

OK, to the point:

 

At this point, I haven't gotten all that far past the demo area, so I'm not an expert yet, but I want to get this discussion started, and maybe motivate people who already know more to contribute.

 

The goal is quite simple: Get through the game with the most optimal builts for:

#1 Getting everything in the game, quests, items, unlocking options and places. (except maybe a very things of low importance if it requires to much of a sacrifice to get them)

#2 Get through torment mode with relative ease.

#3 Have fun! This one is important, it may cause a player who is mostly a power gamer, to still deviate to inferior strategies (numbers wise) here and there, simply because it is more fun, or less tedious. (I mean, who is going to backtrack all the stashes after having bought training somewhere halfway, the game)

 

I'll start with the party and builds.

Tips on what route to best take are also allowed in this thread, with the idea of traveling in an order that will net the most gain with the least difficulty.

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Since the unlock spell is gone, the tired old mage-thieve can be scrapped from the list.

Since the heavy buffing is removed (according to the changes thread), we may actually need to invest in endurance now. I did with my first party, and I haven't regretted it yet. (like I said, only slightly past the demo area)

 

From what I've gathered from various other threads:

With Arcane Lore 15 (12 + 3) you can read all the books.

With Nature Lore 18 (12 + 6) you can open all the stashes.

With Tool Use 15 (12 + 3) you can access 98% of game Trap-wise. And with TU 17 (14 + 3) you can disable all traps. I don't know about locks though.

 

From what I've experienced so far in A6, and from what I know from A4 and A5. I've figured out the following:

 

4 characters

 

#1: The front warrior. Designed to deal heavy blow and absorb damage.

Nephil

Divinely Touched

Pure Spirit

Uses Sword and shield.

 

The priest spells are mainly for light duty and backup. I went with Elite Warrior first, but I decided that maybe I could get more payoff from some extra magical backup.

Discuss...

 

#2: The battle priest and backup tank.

Slithzerikai

Divinely Touched

Pure Spirit

Uses pole weapon

 

This one goes heavy on priest and on pole. He will be the main priest and a secondary tank. His pole will deal a lot of damage, and with his higher Intelligence he can opt to invest in anatomy and do even more damage to a portion of his opponents.

 

#3: Archer/thrower priest/mage thief.

Nephil

Divinely Touched

Pure Spirit/Natural Mage

Uses bow/throwing weapons.

 

This one will get all the TU the party needs, he will invest heavily in ranged attacks, and get light priest or mage abilities as backup or for light buffs, just like the front warrior. I'm not sure yet weather he should go for light priest or light mage abilities.

Discuss...

 

#4: The Wizard.

Human (Nephil is better, but I like a more varied party)

Pure Spirit

Natural Mage

Uses shield, a sword with non-combat enhancements, and a bow for backup.

 

This one will get a high Intelligence score and a heavy investment in mage and priest skills, as well as spellcraft. I haven't yet figured out what else to get from him, or for him.

Discuss...

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[Randomizer]

For fighters I usually go with Elite Warrior for the extra damage from Blademaster and the extra carrying capacity.

 

For normal difficulty I found endurance 8 was a must by the time you get to the Abyss and torment needs endurance 10 for the rest of the game. Also you should increase strength to be able to wear the heaviest armor possible to reduce damage. If you are still wearing robes at the end then more endurance.

 

Standing before Melanchion, "No I'm not going to return your treasure. What are you going to do about it you overweening worm, bleed on me?" This is a good example of why you will need lots of health.

 

There are no trainers for bows and thrown weapons so don't wait on adding to these skills from the start if you plan to use them. Melee weapons can actually wait until the trainer east of Almaria since you can start with increased strength and quick action while you wait. Pole weapons you might as well get at the start since you have to wait awhile to get to a very expensive trainer.

 

Get smite and train in it as much as possible. When you start fighting sliths in the Eastern Gallery and later this will be a heavily used spell. Mages with their area effect spells will not want to use them as much when it makes them a target of large numbers of angry sliths than aren't dead, yet.

 

Normally I get parry unlocked early and use it to avoid damage. This is really significant in the middle game. You can wait until the trainer in A6 without too much trouble and then raise it quickly. However one really effective trick is to use spineshield to make monsters suicide against you. An area effect wand (wand of inferno or corruption baton) can make a slith horde attack a heavily armored fighter and do more damage to themselves that you can do.

 

Use items. They don't have that much resale value and they are worth more in combat. A mass speed items just as you start a major fight allows for inflicting damage quickly. Wands make a great second attack when the haste spell gives you some extra AP to slip it in between swings.

[Khoth]

If you're mostly going to be spending skillpoints on combat skills for your fighter, Elite Warrior will be better than Pure spirit. At high levels, EW will be giving bonuses to skills that are high and so cost a lot of skill points, whereas PS boosts skills that will likely be cheaper.

 

I always give fighters a point of priest spells, but I think the most compelling spell after that is Unshackle Mind at six, and that's more than I'm willing to put into it.

[VCH]

Is it possible to make a good archer/priest? Or will this spread the skill points too widely? I want both archery and priest spells to be strong. My archer/priest is a Nephilim.

 

Oh and I think for a lot of people the editor is a good option for Tool Use. I just bump TU to 10 early on. Training in TU doesn't add any more fun to RPing.

 

"Oh there's a box. Ah I can't open it . . . I'll come back. Screw that no I wont . . . open editor . . . yea!"

 

The only problem is if you bump TU too high there's a danger that some doors that really shouldn't open when you're too low a level will open. There's one in the memorial grounds west of the Castle. I round a corner and bam my 1st in line character is blown to pieces, then the second and the third. It's quite funny actually.

 

[Lilith]

A shortage of skill points shouldn't be a problem for an archer-priest, since archery doesn't require a lot of skill points and Pure Spirit takes care of a fair chunk of your spellcasting needs. Hold off on Sharpshooter until you get to the trainer for it; likewise with Spellcraft, if you can wait that long. Don't invest too heavily in archery, since it gets less useful as you progress further in the game.

 

By the way, does anyone know if thrown weapons have finally been made worth the trouble of stockpiling them in A6? I'm guessing no, but hope springs eternal.

[VCH]

I was considering using thrown weapons instead of arrows, but decided not to because of the scarcity of javelins.

 

On that note there really seems to be a scarcity of weapon types in the early game. My pole-user didn't have a pole weapon for a long period to begin the game.

[Randomizer]

There are about 140-150 fine lances, 50+ fine razordisks, 80+ razordisks, and lots more steel javelins.

 

I tend to use bows because the later game ones have nice bonuses. But there are plenty of places where spellcasters grow spines or you need to attack something at a different level or you don't want to close to melee where these are fine if you can handle the weight.

[Lilith]

I do wish Jeff had fixed javelins so that if you equip a stack of 50 of them they don't all encumber you. It's not as if having to split up the stack and keep most of it in your inventory is necessary for balance; it's just a nuisance.

[Khoth]

I've been using thrown weapons instead of a bow for one of my fighters, and I've not run out of stuff.

[Serene Tempest]

I've also found that thrown weapons are good on fighters. If they have EW, I don't have many problems with encumberance after level 12 or so, and they do much more damage than bows. I even have a human EW/PS tank that got more damage out of regular javelins than smite even with only 3 levels of thrown weapons and one level of sharpshooter from a deadeye cloak. He had 4 levels in priest spells and no spellcraft, trained in Smite to level 3, and had 5 dexterity. I was actually a little dissapointed in this - I was hoping that having access to smite would allow me to neglect investing in a ranged weapons skill.

[Skippy the bush kangaroo]

By the time it mattered I had no encumbrance problems equipping as many fine lances as I wanted because of Elite warrior.

 

(The time it mattered for me was while X was casting his spell - until then I'd just been collecting them for the hell of it.)

[Synergy]

Originally Posted By: VCH

Is it possible to make a good archer/priest? Or will this spread the skill points too widely?

Decently, yes. My Divinely Touched Pure Spirit nephil priest ramped up nicely in Sharpshooter and Bows over time, while buying only a very little in Bows at cheap levels, to help unlock battle disciplines. He did reasonable damage by bow throughout the game. There are some nice bows in this game, and available early enough to make them worth putting to use. He was never meant to primarily be an archer, since his priest skills were usually much more useful, but as a backup to do some ranged physical damage, he was competent.

-S-

[SevenMass]

OK, so what I gather so far, the best way to make the dedicated warrior, is to start out investing in:

# endurance,

# strength,

# some dexterity,

# defense (to unlock parry)

and the remainder in

# bow and throw.

 

Build those up to the levels you want them at until you get to the trainer in the west great cave, then buy training in the melee skill. Then invest points in the melee skill.

 

 

About parry. I've read in some other thread that playing the dodging game isn't going to work out in the end.

It was the singleton thread I think.

 

 

Investing in endurance is a big change. In A4 I finished Torment mode with base endurance. Although it meant lots of buffing.

So less points available for other things, I'll need to get used to it, but on the on other hand, the prerequisites are lower this time.

[Randomizer]

There are no longer spells to increase health points so endurance is a must.

 

Parry is helpful in avoiding damage, but dodging becomes impratical very quickly.

[Slawbug]

No. Dexterity and Defense are 100% wastes on Torment. If you must have Parry, exploit the bug and just buy it at the start without wasting points on useless skills. And why the heck buy any points in Bows and Throws?

[VCH]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

There are no longer spells to increase health points so endurance is a must.

Is fast and powerful healing another option?

[Alorael at Large]

It helps (it's necessary!), but you need enough Endurance to survive some hefty attacks long enough to receive healing.

 

—Alorael, who already finds that his two priests are called into permanent healing service more often than he'd like. A few more rounds in the beginning of combat before heal mode becomes permanent would help.

[SevenMass]

OK.

 

More insight in the power party.

 

Because The mage-thief is no longer a must, I really should be looking for a more optimal place to put the TU package.

 

I've read in an other thread that mages need more skill points to function well and warriors max with less. This kind of fits my own experience actually, but I didn't thought of it before, I Guess I'm still stuck with the mage-thief in my head somewhere.

 

So the best place to put the TU is on the warrior.

 

So this makes the following party:

 

#1: The front warrior.

Nephil

Divinely Touched

Elite Warrior

Uses Sword and shield.

Gets the TU package

 

Will get 6 STR, 10 END, TU package, get melee to 9 ranks after trainer, Some QA, finish with whatever gives him 20 battle skills and a few ranks in priest.

 

#2: The battle priest and backup tank.

Slithzerikai

Divinely Touched

Pure Spirit

Uses pole weapon

 

Will get 6 STR, 4 INT, 10 END, 9 pole, some QA, invest in Priest, finish with whatever gives him 20 Battle skills

 

#3: The Arcane Archer

Divinely Touched

Natural Mage

Uses bow throwing weapons.

 

Will get 4 DEX 10 END, 6 Bow, 6 Throw, Invest in priest and mage, finish with whatever gives him a few battle disciplines and skills that increases his weapon damage.

 

 

#4: The Wizard.

Pure Spirit

Natural Mage

Uses bow for physical attacks and sword/shield for their magical bonuses.

 

Will get 6 INT, 10 END, Invest in Mage, priest, spellcraft, mag eff. finish with whatever gives him a few battle disciplines.

 

 

This still needs to be worked out some more, of course.

[Randomizer]

You may want to change your first character over to two swords instead of sword and shield. With hardiness and the best armor you can get physical armor up around 88% and not need the shield near the end. As Slarty has shown that extra sword with dual wielding skill really ramps up the damage.

[Slawbug]

FWIW, I ended up going with the good old A4 party of four Nephils. It was very tempting to include a Slith. Sliths are, in fact, better than Nephils in A6, now that they finally have solid HP and resistance bonuses, and now that bows suck. However, there is still the XP penalty, a minor consideration -- but 10% extra HP is a minor consideration too. I finally decided that my priest, with all his Magical Efficiency, wouldn't get much benefit out of using a pole weapon instead of just casting Smite; and that my wizard, with the emphasis on daze, wouldn't want to blow the skill points on Quick Action to make the halberd worthwhile.

 

The 10% HP is still tempting, but unless you really pump Endurance, that amounts to about 1 extra point of Endurance. But when even a single level-up is worth 1/4 pts of Blademaster, Spellcraft, and Sharpshooter, plus 1/6 of Magical Efficiency and Priest Spells and 1/8 of Bows, plus 5 skill points on top of that, plus a handful of HP and SP... at that point it beats +1 Endurance.

 

The one possible reason to pick a Slith would be for a priest, if you want to maximize the number of enemies who act before you by avoiding Gymnastics, so you can cure poison and acid before they take effect. However, if you do that you also have to avoid Quick Action, and then your pole skill is essentially useless outside of battle disciplines.

 

Picking 4 Nephil sprites is no walk in the part but it's much better than it was in A4. After some fussing and trying to decide what to name my bizarre pale squiggles, I ended up with:

 

Nephil DT EW -- dual wielder, tank (Buriki Daioh)

Nephil DT EW -- dual wielder, tool use (Torneko Taloon)

Nephil DT NM -- mage, spell skill focus (Mewtwo)

Nephil DT PS -- priest, effiency focus (Seri Flamehair)

[Lilith]

My experience has been that having more melee tanks than healers is a poor idea. There are quite a few enemies with area attacks, and Mass Healing is a pretty anaemic spell, so you basically need one dedicated healer per tank early on.

 

You can always give your mage some priest spells, of course.

[Randomizer]

You can slightly compensate by having a mage with some priest spells. Spellcraft can get to 30 by the end without using too many skill points so you can have a backup healer if you want to skip an attack round.

 

I found that two characters that could cast unshackle mind really helps when your priest is charmed or terrified.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

I found that two characters that could cast unshackle mind really helps when your priest is charmed or terrified.

Oh yeah, this too. Having two priests was absolutely vital for doing the Dispel Barrier quest early on (which you want to do, because it nets you some really good items in addition to the spell).

[The Knight Who Said Ni]

Well I try to have all my characters with a minimal priest skill, perhaps up to Summon Shade. Then I can have Warriors with heavy armor cast smite and dispel a demon when necessary.

 

Dual wielding I only have on my priest. I find with high speed and some dexterity, it pays off. Besides skill with melee weapons, dual wielding, and some strength.

 

-Ni.

[Slawbug]

Dexterity has absolutely no impact whatsoever on melee attacks, whether with one blade or two.

[Triumph]

Originally Posted By: Margerine Eclipse

Dexterity has absolutely no impact whatsoever on melee attacks, whether with one blade or two.

 

Does DEX really do anything then? If it doesn't (meaningfully) help dodge, and doesn't help hit with melee attacks? There's actually no point to putting points in it? Weird.

[Alorael at Large]

It helps with bows.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't know how important that is. Not especially, really. Oh, and it unlocks some skills, so you'll need some.

[Lilith]

And Dexterity also increases your initiative order, for what that's worth, although literally every other skill that does the same thing is cheaper.

[Slawbug]

DEX does just as much as STR -- it just does things that are typically less useful. A full list of the effects of DEXTERITY:

 

- Increases initiative

- Increases evasion by 5% per point (10-cap applies to this only)

- Increases Bow and Missile damage by 75% a level of damage per point

- Increases Bow and Missile hit rate by 5% per point

- Needed to unlock skills (Parry, Riposte, Dual Wielding, Sharpshooter, Quick Strike, Resistance, Gymnastics)

[SevenMass]

After some more thought I came to the conclusion that I need 3 priest, 2 mages, a thief and 2 tanks.

 

And the only solution I could find is this:

fighter/thief

fighter priest

priest/mage

priest/mage

 

As far as I have been testing things, this seems to work out very well.