Stunt Double Tourney -- ROUND 4 -- SUDDEN DARK DEATH!

[Aoslare]

Round Three of the Video Game Character Stunt Double Tourney has been completed! And it only took five months! Thanks to everyone who participated.

 

Congratulations to the 5 stunt doubles who have advanced:

 

Magus (*i)

Pikachu (Rowen)

Poo (Lenar)

Rune (Thuryl)

Samus (Iffy)

 

You may notice that there is now an ODD number of combatants. You may also remember that I promised a suprise for the fourth round. Well, here it is.

 

Round four will take place in ONE segment of five battles. As in previous rounds, participants and spectators alike are encouraged to give their opinion on the battles, which will be taken into account when the ruling is issued.

 

However, the stunt doubles won't be fighting each other. Instead, each character will fight his own worst enemy... himself.

 

A number of video games have taken cues from the coming-of-age rituals of cultures across the world, and presented transformative quests or events that involve one character -- or occasionally, a group of characters -- coming face to face with the demons within. Some of the most

,

,

,

, and, occasionally,

have involved this trope.

 

Well, now it's our turn. In this round, all five matches will be timed... and the stunt double who takes the longest time to dispatch his or her stunt double double, will be eliminated. In the event that one or more stunt doubles is unable to overcome his or her stunt double double, all such contestants will be eliminated instead. So... who will have the hardest time overcoming the evil within?

 

In this round, purity of character and strength of willpower may weigh as heavily as speed and strength. Judging this round will require quite a lot of imagination -- informed, as always, by the mechanics and statistics of the games. As such, thoughtful input from spectators will be particularly appreciated in this round.

 

ROUND FOUR -- SUDDEN DEATH VERSUS THE STYGIAN ABYSS / THE LIGHT ON MT. ORDEALS / THE SHADOW / THE CLONE / you get the idea... FIGHT!!!

 

4.1. Magus (*i) vs. Magus

4.2. Pikachu (Rowen) vs. Pikachu

4.3. Poo (Lenar) vs. Poo

4.4. Rune (Thuryl) vs. Rune

4.5. Samus (Iffy) vs. Samus

 

[Balladeer]

Round 4.2 I've seen Pikachu fight himself before. I'd estimate it took 20 minutes before the 'evil' pikachu got too tired to slap the 'good' pikachu any more but that was when the good one stopped fighting back. I'd expect if he kept fighting the time it'd take to tucker out the other one would be less though I'm not convinced that he could deliver a KO to himself being equally as tired. If he went with the strategy of waiting his opponent out and then delivering a KO blow, it might work, but I've no clue if it'd be fast enough to beat any of the others.

[Alorael at Large]

Two of these characters, Pikachu and Samus, appear in various Super Smash Brothers. I imagine it doesn't take too long for two players playing the character to come to a victory.

 

Magus managed to overcome his dark side, sort of, in Chrono Trigger, for whatever that's worth. His attacks are also perfectly suited for killing himself, which is both a good thing and a bad thing.

 

Poo and Rune both seem to have offense that can handily overpower their defenses.

 

—Alorael, who concludes that all of them are capable of defeating themselves in relatively short order. They're also quite vulnerable to themselves.

[Goldengirl]

Frankly, I think in a Pikachu versus Pikachu match, it's no competition.

 

First of all, the one time Pikachu actually fought a clone version of itself, good Pikachu was perilously close to utter defeat.

 

Secondly, evil Pikachu, being evil, would be all too likely to point out some harsh facts to good Pikachu, destroying good Pikachu's morale. These facts include things such as Pikachu's age, as well as how good Pikachu is basically a tool. Even if these only inspire a moment of doubt, it's enough for the advantage to be won, and evil Pikachu to come out as the victor.

[Sleeping Dragon]

I agree on the pikachu match. People seem to be referring to the TV show, which is not the correct source for this deathmatch, but it plays out pretty much the same way in the games. Two of the same pokemon fighting each other rarely makes for a good battle. I pikachu's case, I believe electric is weak against electric, so this particular round is the worst matchup the poor guy could have ended up with.

 

As for Samus, I feel it would be a quick battle, since Samus doesn't have that much health and does do decent damage. Although, if it's one of the older games, the attacks could be timed right for them to both destroy each other at the same time.

 

The others who have made it this far are too arcane for me to comment on currently.

 

As a side note, I'm glad Bastila didn't make it this far. She would stand no chance against herself, especially if she had to fight the

version of herself, who was actually quite a bit more powerful than the good version.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

I agree on the pikachu match. People seem to be referring to the TV show, which is not the correct source for this deathmatch, but it plays out pretty much the same way in the games. Two of the same pokemon fighting each other rarely makes for a good battle. I pikachu's case, I believe electric is weak against electric, so this particular round is the worst matchup the poor guy could have ended up with.

Actually, electric types resist electrical attacks. Unfortunately, this isn't really a good thing for Pikachu, since the goal here is to finish the battle quickly. None of the non-electric attacks Pikachu can use are particularly strong; I think the best ones have a base attack power of 60, compared to 90 for his Thunderbolt -- and because they're not aligned with his elemental type, he doesn't get an attack bonus with them. Still, he's an agile little blighter and not too durable, so win or lose it shouldn't take too long to achieve a result.

Samus, of course, has fought evil alter egos more than once: the SA-X in Metroid Fusion and Dark Samus in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. So that gives her an edge here, I suppose. She also has a potential advantage in terms of game mechanics, since she's capable of pumping out tremendous amounts of damage in a short time with super missiles -- of course, that's assuming they all hit.

Rune hasn't fought against himself, although in his first incarnation as Lutz he defeated his own teacher in Phantasy Star I, so maybe that counts for something. Working under the assumption (implied in Slarty's post as I read it) that the alter ego is evil, Rune can use his strongest spell, the holy magic Efess, putting his evil twin at an immediate disadvantage. On a less crunchy level, Rune is no stranger to the darkness in man's heart: he's faced it down in the form of Dark Force three times over the course of two millennia. He may be kind of a jerk, but he's been found worthy to inherit the will of one of his world's greatest heroes; frankly, it wouldn't be surprising if he had faced an ordeal like this as part of his Esper training. It's not clear how quick it would be, but I'd say Rune would certainly overcome his dark side.

Poo's magical attack power is more impressive than his defenses, so he can expect to have a quick battle. As a character, he's in much the same boat as Rune: he hasn't strictly fought against himself, but some of the training he's been through comes

. How can someone be defeated by himself who has no self to defeat?

Magus is in an interesting position. Mechanically, in a fight between Magus-the-party-member and Magus-the-boss, the party member would likely win pretty comfortably, but it's not really fair to compare the stats of a late-game party member to a mid-game boss. In terms of his character arc, it seems like the only reason he stopped being actively evil was his single-minded devotion to rescuing Schala and destroying Lavos -- once his summoning ritual failed and the Mystics were defeated, he had no more reason to make war against humanity, which doesn't really make him a good person. His evil side might stand a good chance of tempting him with an offer of power -- although then again, after he saw what happened to Queen Zeal, maybe not.

Overall, I'd say Magus and Pikachu are in the worst position in this round, because it's not clear that they'd win at all. I'd put Rune in the next place above them, edged out slightly by Poo on the grounds of speed, with Samus at the top. Samus is something of a wild card, though: she's more or less canonically guaranteed to win, but the battle could either end quickly or drag on for a long time.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Yeah, that's what I meant. I meant to say electric attacks are weak against electric, not that electric is vulnerable to electric. Sorry. Yeah, it seems this round was made just to trash the poor little guy.

[Aoslare]

"The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger."

 

In fairy tales and their descendants, among whom video games can indubitably be counted, evil is always stronger in innumerable ways. The advantage that belongs to good is the humble advantage of choice, and there is always some way for good to exploit this -- often an obscure and unexpected way. Nowhere is this more clear than in video games, in which doppelgangers usually do have superior offenses and defenses and sometimes even maneuverability compared to the player. But the doppelgangers are restricted to their own algorithm of evil -- expansive though it may be, with randomization (or even, in rare latter-day appearances, AI learning). The player's character is usually weaker, but can do whatever the player likes, and this is his chance of winning.

 

In the youtube videos I linked in the first post, the Mega Man and Link battles are perfect examples of this. Mega Man's clone takes several times less damage per hit than Mega Man does, but his movement patterns can be exploited. Link's Shadow occasionally breaks the rules of play by simply not registering a hit when he is hit. And of course, in both cases, casual body contact between the two fighters damages the player, but not the dark duplicate.

 

Perhaps this is a more useful frame for the question. Who can most quickly exploit the closed mind of their double? And who can't? If you can't make better choices than your opponent, but you are weaker in plain terms, you will surely lose.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Okay, let me try to apply your ideas here, to the pikachu battle I guess. Are we to assume a poor AI has control of the doppelganger? If so, then maybe evil pikachu will use just his most powerful electric attacks, doing little damage to good pikachu, who uses his moves wisely, choosing instead to attack with normal, non-electric attacks, defeating his opponent with ease. If the timer still applies, though, those normal attacks are still pretty weak, so it seems he's still not in good shape, assuming the others can dispatch their enemies more quickly.

 

Is that more how you want us to judge a battle?

[Aoslare]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Working under the assumption (implied in Slarty's post as I read it) that the alter ego is evil, Rune can use his strongest spell, the holy magic Efess, putting his evil twin at an immediate disadvantage.

Hmm, this is a good question. I think it could go either way with Efess -- there are plenty of examples of anti-evil spells and effects not working on evil clones because, presumably, it is not their substance which is dark or evil but their actions. Efess, IIRC, is relatively picky and doesn't work on a whole lot of enemies. I'm fairly sure there are some human or humanoid enemies in PS4 who are clearly doing evil things, but can't be touched by Efess. So I'm tentatively going to suggest that Efess won't work.

Quote:

arc, it seems like the only reason he stopped being actively evil was his single-minded devotion to rescuing Schala and destroying Lavos -- once his summoning ritual failed and the Mystics were defeated, he had no more reason to make war against humanity, which doesn't really make him a good person. His evil side might stand a good chance of

Was Magus ever actually evil? Callous and aloof, certainly, even as a child, but I've always read it that he simply took advantage of an already warlike Ozzie-and-company to secure his own position in life and enable his plans of revenge. Okay, I guess that doesn't sound terribly good or ethical, but he was trying to defeat (essentially) the destroyer of humanity, so that has to count for something. The key scenes here are two. First, the scene in which Janus appears in 600 AD and is ambushed by Ozzie. Second, the scene in which Janus/Magus does something actively cruel or malicious. That scene doesn't exist, and I don't think that's an accident.

[Aoslare]

I didn't mean to imply poor AI, though I guess the Mega Man battle does kind of imply that. We can't assume stupidity on the part of the doubles. I guess what I'm saying is just that the stunt double will have to find and exploit some kind of technique for defeating his double. In a simple head-on confrontation with no room to maneuever at all, the evil double will win.

[Triumph]

As was already mentioned, Samus has more than once faced some kind of double. She has proven her ability to face such enemies, and then adapt, be flexible, and devise tactics that take advantage of her weapons to defeat the "clone-type" foe. So I would say she has one of the best chances of winning, and in good time.

 

As much as I like Pikachu, I'm not sure how quickly he'd win. A properly trained Pikachu would have moves others electric type, to be sure. However, Pokemon are not noted as tacticians - in battle they generally rely on a trainer to figure that part out (wild Pokemon don't, but they aren't very effective battlers either). One big exception might be the Pikachu in the Super Smash Bros. series, which (conceptually) fights on its own. Of course, that lack of tactical ability could count against the opposing Pikachu too - leading it to fritter away its time using ineffective thunderbolts or something else electric. Pikachu probably could win, but the problem of ineffective attacks leads me to doubt how quick the battle would be (I think of trying to use Pikachu against Lt. Surge's Raichu in Pokemon Yellow...). Sad to say it, as much as I like Pikachu, but electric vs. electric battles are a bad matchup.

 

Magus has definitely proven to have the adaptability or flexibility to face an...unorthodox enemy. Think about his story: as a kid, he gets warped thousands of years to future, to be raised by monsters, but he figures out how to use that position to attack his true enemy (Lavos); then he gets warped back thousands of years to Zeal, and takes advantage of his previous experience to maneuver into a position to attack his enemy (as a prophet); then when that doesn't work out, he agrees to join this surprisingly hardy bunch of adventurers who previously defeated him, joining with them to defeat his enemy. No doubt Magus could defeat an evil clone-type enemy, given his character, I think. How quickly? Not sure, but likely faster than Pikachu will.

 

I've never played whatever games the other characters are in...

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Iudex Machina

Hmm, this is a good question. I think it could go either way with Efess -- there are plenty of examples of anti-evil spells and effects not working on evil clones because, presumably, it is not their substance which is dark or evil but their actions. Efess, IIRC, is relatively picky and doesn't work on a whole lot of enemies. I'm fairly sure there are some human or humanoid enemies in PS4 who are clearly doing evil things, but can't be touched by Efess. So I'm tentatively going to suggest that Efess won't work.

There aren't very many human enemies in the game in the first place (not counting the sorcerer-type enemies, who are weak to Efess but may be demons of some sort), and most of them appear before you'd normally have Efess. Efess does work on the human enemies in Zio's Fort, but it's less effective than it is against demons and undead -- and the only reason Efess does so much damage is that most things that are affected by it at all are weak against it. So I'm comfortable with your ruling that it won't work, or at least won't work well enough to be his best tactical option.

The news for Rune in your post isn't all bad, though. If we're assuming that each contestant is fighting a beefed-up, AI-controlled version of himself, then Rune's wide array of modestly powerful attack magic actually works to his advantage. Rune's defenses will soak up a lot of damage even from his own spells, and that effect will be magnified if the evil version of him is busting out Nafoi or Tandle instead of Legeon.

Quote:

Was Magus ever actually evil? Callous and aloof, certainly, even as a child, but I've always read it that he simply took advantage of an already warlike Ozzie-and-company to secure his own position in life and enable his plans of revenge. Okay, I guess that doesn't sound terribly good or ethical, but he was trying to defeat (essentially) the destroyer of humanity, so that has to count for something. The key scenes here are two. First, the scene in which Janus appears in 600 AD and is ambushed by Ozzie. Second, the scene in which Janus/Magus does something actively cruel or malicious. That scene doesn't exist, and I don't think that's an accident.

Well, he did turn Frog into a frog.

[Alorael at Large]

The whole scene with Cyrus and Glenn looks a lot like malice for malice's sake. And he doesn't even reverse the spell when working with Frog, although he presumably could.

 

Moving on, my understanding is that the battle setup assumes that the evil twins are fighting effectively but without brilliance or innovation. So...

 

If anyone can manage unorthodox lateral thinking, I think Magus can. He has played three different roles. Four-ish, if you count Radical Dreamers. He's clever, and he has the firepower to do something with that. Actually, if anyone would end up convincing a doppleganger to join forces, I think it would be Magus. And if all else fails, he can try to have his evil (good?) twin eaten by a black hole.

 

I'm not well versed in Pokémon lore, but I'd imagine that animals aren't good at doing much but attacking until they defeat or are defeated unless otherwise directed. I'd put money on the enemy Pikachu.

 

Apparently Samus has experience going for her. I'll accept that.

 

I don't know anything about Rune's personality. Would he come up with a better trick than slugging it out with himself? I get the sense that he would. Does he plausibly have a better trick? I get the sense that he's a powerful wizard who would.

 

—Alorael, who left out Poo because he has nothing to add there. He'll just say that he think Pikachu is the loser of this round.

[Rowen]

I'm still doing some digging on Pikachu vs. Pikachu but I can say that Pikachu (mine) can win it, I'm just digging up info to prove it. Pikachu is an electric type pokemon. It's tail is more then just for show, it can be a grounding rod. Fast physical attacks are key against the low hp counterpart. I'll be back to edit this post in a bit.

[Aoslare]

Originally Posted By: 'Twerewolf dog

The whole scene with Cyrus and Glenn looks a lot like malice for malice's sake. And he doesn't even reverse the spell when working with Frog, although he presumably could.

Not necessarily; the game states that Lavos drained much of his power. Although they never discuss it (and really ought to have), Frog does say at another point in the game that he likes his newer form. As for the transformation scene itself, Magus doesn't even kill Glenn. Crono and company seem to have no problem killing other living, intelligent creatures. Like the Reptites for example. Oh wait -- I went into poorly constructed Chrono Cross territory there, whoops.

[Alorael at Large]

Nevertheless, Magus does something to Glenn that seems intended only to cause pain. And it works pretty well, too.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't think Magus did it with Glenn's best interests in mind. Or he really is a prophet and knew that a frog with a sword would do well against Lavos.

[Aoslare]

Originally Posted By: Deliberate Hyperintelligence

Or he really is a prophet and knew that a frog with a sword would do well against Lavos.

The black wind howls.

More seriously, we can probably agree on the terms by reframing them. Magus is a classic Byronic hero. In fact, it's hard to imagine how he could fit the criteria better.

And even more seriously, the frog with a sword is easily one of the least useful of his game's characters, competing with Marle and Lucca for the worst against Lavos prize.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Liminal Term, Terminal Limb

And even more seriously, the frog with a sword is easily one of the least useful of his game's characters, competing with Marle and Lucca for the worst against Lavos prize.

There's nothing wrong with Lucca that a few Speed Tabs can't fix. Flare actually has higher base damage than Dark Matter, although they're pretty comparable unless you max out her Magic.

[Rowen]

As seen here. Electric attacks vs electric based pokemon are not very effective. Normal attacks vs electric based pokemon deals normal damage (no modifiers) so Pikachu's main stay of attacks will be normal attacks.

 

Quick Attack, Super Tail Flip, HeadButt, and Spin Kick would be the normal based attacks. Pikachu's agility and teleport is very important to so that the pokemon can dodge incoming attacks and then attack.

 

As seen here at 1:20, Pikachu can ground himself so electric deals little to no damage.

 

As seen in here, the agility to dodge attacks and then attack and get out of reach is why Pikachu wins. (First part of video shows why he loses and second half shows why he wins.)

 

Don't forget that Pickachu has a very low heath base meaning that it would not take a large number of attacks to get a KO. So, Pikachu needs to keep moving, ground against electric attacks and then use Quick Attack and HeadButt often. Fight might lasts one minute to two minutes tops.

[Aoslare]

That's actually incorrect. An old FAQ reported that, but more accurate data proves that Flare's base power is 34 while DarkMatter's is 38. But they are both beaten by Luminaire at 50 and even Robo's Shock at 40 (relevant if you give him all the magic tabs for Heal Beam). Actually, Tail Spin is at 40 as well. Anyway, ALL of Magus's stats are higher than Lucca's at pretty much any level...

[Alorael at Large]

Magus lacks double techs and largely lacks triple techs.

 

—Alorael, who thinks that's mostly an advantage. And now this has wandered rather far afield.

[Aoslare]

Admittedly most of those suck, but there are some dual techs that do ramp up the damage:

 

Falcon Hit reaches about 32 total base multiplier (physical)

Beast Toss reaches about 69 total base multiplier (physical) of which about 31 can get the Crisis Arm bonus

Max Cyclone reaches about 39 total base multiplier (mixed) and is cheap in MP use.

 

Of note here are three that involve Lucca. Unfortunately, they all have serious drawbacks that make them less than useful in most games:

 

Doublevbomb reaches about 93 total base multiplier (magical), but has very bad range

Fire Whirl reaches about 81 total base multiplier (magical) and has great range and reasonable MP cost, but about 3/4 of that multiplier uses Ayla's magic stat

Frog Flare doesn't boost damage much, but essentially allows Lucca to cast a non-elemental Flare, which is useful in a few situations. On the down side, it requires Frog. I don't actually remember if you need him at low HP to get the Flare part of the damage output, but really, either way...

 

The only triple tech that has actual potential is Life Line, and that requires using Marle.

[Aoslare]

Wow, I really pulled this off topic. I'm going to try and do the judging sometime soon, so this is a last call for any further comments. Further comments would actually be appreciated, as I find it very hard to decide this one based on a broad glance at it.

[Kygron]

Do the clones know that their goal is to stall and get the player eliminated? or will they go all out on offense and try to win?

[Aoslare]

The goal of the clones is not to stall -- their goal is simply to defeat their opponent. Good question!

[Rowen]

Just checking in on this. Do you need more information or comments on the fights to make a judgment?

[Swimmin' Salmon]

It hasn't been 3 months yet.

[Ephesos]

Two weeks.

[nikki.]

Originally Posted By: Ephesos

Two weeks.

[Aoslare]

 

More information is welcome. I need to get this done. It's my bad. And really, this just drives the point home that while I might beat my own clone, it would take me forever to do so and I would not advance to the finals.

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Wouldn't it be more likely that that you and your clone would be late to the actual match, and find the building dark and doors locked?

[Aoslare]

No. I'm very good at starting projects on time. The problem is finishing them.

[Rowen]

Originally Posted By: Slarty

This is an undertaking, with the emphasis on the under.

As you said, I looked under and found this.

[A less presumptuous name.]

General wasn't cleaned out at all in 2010? I'm surprised that this is still here, not that I was ever involved.

 

Slarty-induced necromancy. Is this what Retrioactivity is all about? Getting everyone to find an old thread to resurrect?

[Aoslare]

Okay, I reread this thread and it was pretty interesting. I am adding this to my queue of stuff to do. Does that mean it will get done? We'll see. But I've thought about this a bit and I think I can take care of it somewhat quickly.