Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I've been having a hard time putting my finger on this. In G3-4, my Guardian/Warrior managed to get his melee skill up to around 12, and that let me get about an 80-100 or so per attack. Now in G5, I can clear at least 100 with only 10. Was this ever looked into? I didn't notice any other offensive attack empowered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 No. Melee skill is only one of several factors in play. My guess is you were using different weapons, or had different Strength stats, or faced enemies with different armor values. Do a test with two PCs with identical Str and Melee stats and the same weapon, and fight enemies with no (or identical) armor. Damage should be the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 There are a LOT of weapons that do far more damage in G5 than pretty much any other Geneforge game- the Puresteel Blade's 25d5 attack is the largest and most powerful in the entire series, excepting the Guardian Claymore's G1 attack of 12d7, but it was more difficult to get high damage in that game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 12d7? I thought melee attacks were all 1-8 in G1. Am I remembering wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Yep, guardian claymore does 10-70 damage, but the extra +2 strength really makes it 12-84. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Shaper Tristan Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 in GF5 the battle creations have been slightly beefed(in my opinion) as i belive magic creations dominated GF 1-3 in my books and fire creations in GF4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Huh? If anything, G4 is the game in which magic creations are strongest, thanks to Wingbolts. You can get them halfway through the game and they walk all over pretty much everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Shaper Tristan Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 now that i think about it you are partially correct, wingbolts dominate, but overall magic creations was nerfed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Magic creations have been steadily nerfed since GF3 with vlish being so powerful. GF5 nerfed fire creations a bit too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 I disagree with all of these statements. Vlish were HEAVILY nerfed in G4, but Wingbolts are a little overpowered in that game. In the Mac version though, Drayks were nearly as good a value. Wingbolts were not as overpowered as Vlish were in G3, but in neither game are Magic Creations as a whole overpowered or nerfed. Magic Creations were probably the best option in G2, but they only beat Fire Creations by a little bit. In G1 the Artila and Vlish were superb values, but Drayks and Cryodrayks had advantages as well and there was no comparable Magic Creation. Overall, Magic Shaping was strongest in G3, followed by G4, G2, G1, and G5, in that order. However, in NO game have they been the least advantageous of the three shaping trees -- that honor has belonged to Battle Shaping in the first four games and to Fire Shaping in the last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted October 8, 2009 Author Share Posted October 8, 2009 I have to echo Slarty in that Magic Creations are great in G5. Matching them up on their tiers, Artila's are much more powerful then Fyora's, even if they cost more essence. Vlish have always been better then Roamers due to their cursing power, and Charged Vlish, even if they are overpriced, are completely superior to Pyroroamers. Drayks and Cryodrayks elemental blast are way better then Ur/Glaahks stunning attack, true, but Gazers (who resist everything except Physical) wipe the floor with Drakons (who have mediocre resistance to everything except fire). Wingbolts are still more powerful then Kyshakks, even taking into account the essence cost (which in the long run won't mean much at all). The only other creation that gets a leg to stand on aside from Drayks are Cryoa's, but, imo, its definitely a better investment to trade it in for a Vlish. Fire Shaping just doesn't seem to have any big edge going for them. They're not necessarily bad; just a worse investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Ackrovan The only other creation that gets a leg to stand on aside from Drayks are Cryoa's, but, imo, its definitely a better investment to trade it in for a Vlish. Why would you trade a cryoa in? Dikiyoba has found that vlish get too fragile to keep before cryoas do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Shaper Tristan Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 a vlish's fagility doesint really matter because vlish are not used on the front line, they have a missile attack for a reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Look, it is quite simple to classify these things. G1- Fire by a long shot, as the only tier 3 creations with range were Drayks. Magic comes seconds, and battle pretty much sucked. G2- Magic. Eyebeasts stun, do massive damage, and attack everthing is sight. This is by far the nastiest creation ever invented. G3- See above, but vlish of epicness, as well. G4- Wingbolts. We're done here. (eyebeast nerfin, not so much...) G5- Battle by a medium-small margin, with magic still packing some endgame punches with the Gazer and Eyebeast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted October 9, 2009 Author Share Posted October 9, 2009 Battle creations were on par with Magic/Fire creations in G1-2. Its only in G3 that they began falling behind. Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba Why would you trade a cryoa in? Dikiyoba has found that vlish get too fragile to keep before cryoas do. - More powerful attack (even taking into account the fact that nothing resists cold damage well) - Cursing effect - Higher starting level - More hitpoints ^ In a nutshell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 What, and you think a Rothdhizon or a alpha has any chance against a Eyebeast or Drayk, respectively? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Shaper Tristan Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 the only way i could see that working would be if the rot/alpha backed the eyebeast/drayk into a wall and they were forced to use their meelee attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted October 9, 2009 Author Share Posted October 9, 2009 If the Alpha can get it in a corner and take out the range attack, yes. Same goes for the Rothdhizon. One of the advantages of a Melee creation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 The problem is that non-battle creations can fight in melee almost as well as most battle creations can. A drayk and an alpha are pretty closely matched in melee, and the drayk has an obvious advantage at range (although the alpha is cheaper, of course). Some creations, including Gazers and Eyebeasts, can also cause powerful status effects with their melee attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Shaper Tristan Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 well if thats the case whats the point in ever having a battle creation if the others are just better, something like the thade(am i spelling that right), simple cannon fodder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 No, that wouldn't work against an Eyebeast, their melee attack terrifies very well, so they'd run away, and you could get back to beating on them from afar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan Battle creations were on par with Magic/Fire creations in G1-2. Its only in G3 that they began falling behind. It's true that Battle creations lost most of their zing after G2, when melee damage as a whole was scaled back from d8 to d4. However, they weren't actually on par with the other creations even in G1 and G2. For one thing, magic and fire attacks did more damage in G1 and G2 as well. IIRC, ice breath did 1-8 in G1 just like melee -- but while G1 had creation armor it didn't have much in the way of creation resistances. Plus, ranged attacks were even more advantageous under the old AP system. Oh, and ice breath had a 70% chance (IIRC) to stun! Cryoas and cryodrayks truly put battle creations to shame. Artila did as well, and Vlish even then made incredible support minions. (All damage was scaled back after G1 and again after G2 -- practically the only attack that didn't have its die shrunk was the Vlish's, which is the main reason they were so overpowered in G3.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted October 9, 2009 Author Share Posted October 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: If You Seek Amygdalae Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan Battle creations were on par with Magic/Fire creations in G1-2. Its only in G3 that they began falling behind. It's true that Battle creations lost most of their zing after G2, when melee damage as a whole was scaled back from d8 to d4. However, they weren't actually on par with the other creations even in G1 and G2. For one thing, magic and fire attacks did more damage in G1 and G2 as well. IIRC, ice breath did 1-8 in G1 just like melee -- but while G1 had creation armor it didn't have much in the way of creation resistances. Plus, ranged attacks were even more advantageous under the old AP system. Oh, and ice breath had a 70% chance (IIRC) to stun! Cryoas and cryodrayks truly put battle creations to shame. Artila did as well, and Vlish even then made incredible support minions. (All damage was scaled back after G1 and again after G2 -- practically the only attack that didn't have its die shrunk was the Vlish's, which is the main reason they were so overpowered in G3.) I conceed. I have to admit that I'm to corrupted by nostalgia too argue this much further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Well, in G5 the main point of having battle creations is that War Tralls are arguably the best creations in the game, thanks to high resistances and a ranged attack that doesn't suck. Battle creations also tend to have higher health than other creations of their tier, although that doesn't make so much difference in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall A less presumptuous name. Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 And they are cheap. If you sprint the beginning, you can make 2 high level clawbugs before any fights (excluding the first area). The essence cost isn't as significant later, but it helps in the beginning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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