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Longer school days for Americans?


Enraged Slith
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Artemis - Healthy debate means using critical thinking to attack the ideas put forth by another. Often, it appears as if the attack is focused against a person, but in reality it is not. The moderating staff of this forum, which you have so roundly criticised here, are highly trained in recognizing ad hominem debating, and would, assuredly, remove it and chastise the offensive individual.


I find it SO ammusing that you're one of the rudest people on these forums, and you have the nerve to lecture ME. I clearly said that "I'm no moderator, but..." So I dont understand how this is a wrongdoing by me. Had I not double thought and had the sense to put that, it would be an downright COC war. So please read over your own posts before you misdirect your anger.Furthermore, I have the utmost respect for the dedication of these moderators, and have not said anything to suggest otherwise. Once you find the post where I disrespect or criticize the moderators, then you let Artemis know.
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Artemis - We don't care HOW pleasant or otherwise we are. This is a debate - there's going to be some measure of hostility. If Hypnotic chooses to take the fact that everyone disagrees with him personally, that's his problem.

 

Also, Salmon outranks you. Majorly. He's cool, you're. . . new. Don't push things.

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No one is forcing anyone to be here, let alone participate in this debate. That said, lets debate.

 

I've seen a bit of talk in here about the teachers themselves. I've had a wide variety of teachers. However, there seems to be an abundance of teacher who are definitely smart, but they seem to have much trouble sharing this knowledge with their students. In other words, they know the material, they're just not effective teachers. Has anyone else noticed this? Thoughts? Opinions?

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Originally Posted By: Sss-Chah
maybe requiring teachers to go through recertification after a certain number of years, like some other important jobs could help to improve education just a bit? at least, i don't think they already do this.


I don't know what it's like in America, but I have to be recertified every five years.

Originally Posted By: Master1
No one is forcing anyone to be here, let alone participate in this debate. That said, lets debate.

I've seen a bit of talk in here about the teachers themselves. I've had a wide variety of teachers. However, there seems to be an abundance of teacher who are definitely smart, but they seem to have much trouble sharing this knowledge with their students. In other words, they know the material, they're just not effective teachers. Has anyone else noticed this? Thoughts? Opinions?


You're right, of course. Knowing something doesn't mean you can teach it effectively to teenagers. You have to know your students' learning styles, how to find out whether they actually understand what you've taught them and aren't just parroting lines from the textbook, and how to manage behaviour in a classroom so they don't spend the whole lesson climbing the walls or having shouting matches with you. It's not easy.
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As far as I can tell, there is no re-certification for teachers, provided that they have not gone for a long time without teaching. Also, the American tenure system lets teachers get cozy with their jobs and stop striving to improve their teaching.

 

And yeah, I've had some really smart teachers. Smart, but not good. My world history teacher really knows what she's talking about. She wouldn't have been a grader for the national AP essays if she didn't. That doesn't mean she can teach well. She loses track of her thoughts in mid-sentence. She doesn't grasp grammar. And her tests require us to deduce specific information based on other information we learned. How can we know specifics that we have never learned? Trends, yes. Specifics, no.

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The issue that arise over all this talk of bad teachers, is that there is in fact a lack of teachers in general - bad or good. Not having an optimal number of teachers leads to overcrowded classes, which degrade the learning environment.

 

So, is it worse to have an environment where it's more difficult to learn due to general overcrowding, or is it worse to have teachers who are just bad in general?

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Originally Posted By: Lord Grey
If Hypnotic chooses to take the fact that everyone disagrees with him personally, that's his problem.


Just to clarify I did not take this personally, I just don't want to post anymore otherwise I will start to sound like Kanye West. Trying to prove my point while amending my words. So to save myself turning into a total nincumpoop I am not posting anymore on my point of veiw, everyone knows it, so further info is redundant.

I'm on Taylor Swifts side on that matter to.
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Originally Posted By: Enraged Slith
If you get caught with drugs, you're out of school, and then you have to go to a special place and learn there.
Sort of like what happened towards the end of my senior year of high school. Here's how I heard it:

About three weeks before graduation, two seniors and a freshman were caught with marijuana. One of the seniors, whom I think was a heartbeat away from being thrown out anyway (looking back, I swear there wasn't a day this guy didn't get stoned at least once), fell off the face of the earth. The other senior, a straight-A student, was allowed to graduate, but he was tutored away from the rest of the student body for the remainder of the year, and couldn't participate in any of the graduation ceremonies; they mailed him his diploma. The freshman, also a straight-A student, received an in-school suspension for the remainder of the school year, had all his credits cancelled, and had to repeat the year.

Originally Posted By: Thuryl
Originally Posted By: Sss-Chah
maybe requiring teachers to go through recertification after a certain number of years, like some other important jobs could help to improve education just a bit? at least, i don't think they already do this.
I don't know what it's like in America, but I have to be recertified every five years.
In the U.S., most, if not all, teachers have to go through some sort of recertification every so often; it varies by state. My sister is a teacher, and every so often I hear her talk about how many continuing education credits she's done or still needs.
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Originally Posted By: Excalibur
Is there really a need for schools to treat drug usage so severely? It seems that a lot of kids use marijuana to begin with, just that only a few of them ever get caught, so it doesn't seem to deter marijuana usage at all.


So then what do we do with them? Let them contiually waste their life and break a law? Some measure of non-tolerence needs to be in place.
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Perhaps talk to them?

 

Most folks that enjoy the mind numbing effects of drugs (including alcohol and cigs) are doing so to escape something else, which is to them worse. Find out what it is that is making their current state better than the alternative, and attack the root of the problem. In this way, you retain the benefit of the future worker, and lose the cost of segregating a huge portion of our society.

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No one is forcing anyone to be here, let alone participate in this debate.


you know, that's a great point. With that being said, assume that you wont be seeing me on these forums for a while. Not like you care.

Quote:
Also, Salmon outranks you. Majorly. He's cool, you're. . . new. Don't push things.


of course. I forgot that this was a popularity contest. you're like immature school children. Well, you guys can have fun here. I dont even want to begin to associate myself with the likes of you.
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No need to be testy I personally choose not to delve to deeply into the debates on the forums, otherwise their worth visiting. The main reason being is I'm to lazy to argue with people over the internet, who's opinions I couldn't careless about, about something I probably never convince (or be convinced) of anything. Arguing here is kinda of like swimming in a tank full piranhas while having a nasty cut on your leg. You gain nothing and get eaten alive.

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I'm just not seeing how this debate is terribly acrimonious. People disagree, and they are vigorously defending their views. That's a debate. No one has resorted to attacking the other participants. Everything has been civil. I'm sorry, but I just don't see how this is a problem thread.

 

—Alorael, who isn't sure that drug use necessarily means wasting life. It's possible to drink alcohol and not be an alcoholic. The same is true for some other drugs as well. An illegal act is not necessarily a wrong act; that's why laws can be changed. But this is skirting dangerously close to discussion of illegal activity, and the CoC frowns upon it.

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The only possible solution I can think of that would both offer counseling to problem students (their by not abandoning them) but keep from potentially dragging down other students with them is to have a counseling service where a problem student would go ( sorta of a undefined period of suspension). Where a counselor would try and help them over come their problems. Once deemed ready for the class room again they could return to school. The biggest problem with this is for it to stand any chance of working it would require the cooperation of student and his/her parents. You can give someone an offer of help but untimely they must accept that help.

 

I have no idea if this would work but, I see no point in keeping a student in the class room if they are not learning. However I also see the merits of not giving up on them.

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Originally Posted By: Artemis has Morals
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Also, Salmon outranks you. Majorly. He's cool, you're. . . new. Don't push things.


of course. I forgot that this was a popularity contest. you're like immature school children. Well, you guys can have fun here. I dont even want to begin to associate myself with the likes of you.


The wonderful thing about the internets is that it removes the physical from the equation. To be "cool" on the web is something completely different than to be "cool" at your local secondary school.

I don't qualify as "cool" here, and I most certainly didn't back then. But, I participate nonetheless, because I enjoy the minds of my fellow gamers. They continue to amaze me with the breadth and depth of their knowledge, and despite not having my opinion changed, it is an education to read these forums.
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Originally Posted By: Naughty Salmon
But, I participate nonetheless, because I enjoy the minds of my fellow gamers. They continue to amaze me with the breadth and depth of their knowledge, and despite not having my opinion changed, it is an education to read these forums.


I'll second that.

Back to school: Sadly, not much is done to help people with drug problems. Most schools have counseling programs for students with problems, but such programs aren't effective (or aren't used effectively) to help students. True, some kids do drugs because they can, and we can't really help them, but all those who do it to avoid a worse thing should be helped to the full extent of our ability.

As for overcrowding, I too recognize that problem. I used to have class sizes of about 20. The absolute limit was 25. I then moved out of my small city in Wisconsin to Iowa. Class sizes were more like 30. Here in Maryland, I have classes ranging from 20 to 35+ student. Hardly anyone takes AP Chemistry, so that has 20. The rest have 30+. It's harder for us students to learn, and its way more work for the teachers. They have more things to grade (hence why most of them use scantrons now (ick, evil)) and they don't have as much time with each of us individually. That doesn't mean that we need to get more teachers at whatever cost necessary. We need more teachers, and we need to make sure that the quality of our teachers doesn't go down.
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Originally Posted By: Master1
Originally Posted By: Naughty Salmon
But, I participate nonetheless, because I enjoy the minds of my fellow gamers. They continue to amaze me with the breadth and depth of their knowledge, and despite not having my opinion changed, it is an education to read these forums.


I'll second that.

Back to school: Sadly, not much is done to help people with drug problems. Most schools have counseling programs for students with problems, but such programs aren't effective (or aren't used effectively) to help students. True, some kids do drugs because they can, and we can't really help them, but all those who do it to avoid a worse thing should be helped to the full extent of our ability.

As for overcrowding, I too recognize that problem. I used to have class sizes of about 20. The absolute limit was 25. I then moved out of my small city in Wisconsin to Iowa. Class sizes were more like 30. Here in Maryland, I have classes ranging from 20 to 35+ student. Hardly anyone takes AP Chemistry, so that has 20. The rest have 30+. It's harder for us students to learn, and its way more work for the teachers. They have more things to grade (hence why most of them use scantrons now (ick, evil)) and they don't have as much time with each of us individually. That doesn't mean that we need to get more teachers at whatever cost necessary. We need more teachers, and we need to make sure that the quality of our teachers doesn't go down.

You are going to love college.
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College lectures are often enormous, but it doesn't really matter. Once someone is lecturing it doesn't really matter how many people are listening, it's a one-way interaction. And the other side of college is the really odd niche classes or highly advanced seminars with just a few students and a professor who loves the material and knows it inside and out.

 

—Alorael, who actually wonders if high school could be improved with some kind of TA system. Scheduling might be a huge problem, but if you could, say, get some New York City college students to help facilitate New York City high schools thinks might improve. And they're college students, so you could pay them peanuts and they'd be satisfied.

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Originally Posted By: Goldenking
The issue that arise over all this talk of bad teachers, is that there is in fact a lack of teachers in general - bad or good. Not having an optimal number of teachers leads to overcrowded classes, which degrade the learning environment.

This isn't really true. It's true that there isn't a huge surplus of teachers and that most teaching jobs are less competitive than comparable professional jobs (due to the combination of high workload and low pay). However, that isn't why teacher to student ratios are so low. The ratios are low because most schools don't have lots of money. Most schools could add numerous teaching positions and easily fill them with qualified teachers, if they had enough money to do so.
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Many of my college classes are about 26 to 36 students per teacher for the lower division classes. Some of my lecture halls go up to 350 students. But then I also take my upper division classes and they go from 12-18 students per class.

 

in my current lecture hall class of 332 students I find that I am able to get one on one help from the teacher about once a week and he loves it when students come to him for office hours. No matter the class size teachers make time for their students (on my campus at least) as their goal is not to fail student but see them succeed.

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Originally Posted By: Master1
At a small liberal arts college, you can have class sizes between 15-30.

Classes typically max out at 14 students at Prescott College.

The downside is that sometimes your classroom will be a 15-person van and if you've got a full class, it'll still feel ridiculously overcrowded. Especially if some of your peers are big on conserving water. tongue

Dikiyoba.
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Originally Posted By: Artemis has Morals

of course. I forgot that this was a popularity contest. you're like immature school children. Well, you guys can have fun here. I dont even want to begin to associate myself with the likes of you.


Then don't. And yes, online forums have a social hierarchy, just like any other gathering of people, and I also find it funny that you accuse someone who is not in school to be an immature school child, while you yourself are in school.


Anyway, to the topic at hand: Its just another 3 weeks, whats the big deal? I don't think it will do much, and I don't think that not doing it will hurt us much either. As long as Obama doesn't decide that we need to be on par with Japan in the days for school. Having an extra month and a half would not be pleasant, especially in higher grade levels.

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Originally Posted By: Xelgion


Anyway, to the topic at hand: Its just another 3 weeks, whats the big deal? I don't think it will do much, and I don't think that not doing it will hurt us much either. As long as Obama doesn't decide that we need to be on par with Japan in the days for school. Having an extra month and a half would not be pleasant, especially in higher grade levels.



I don't mind the extra school but heres the problem. Lets say for example you live in a place where it regularly reaches the high 80's low 90's by the end of may and the bus you ride doesn't have conditioning. I have had bus drivers buy some cheap drinks to give to the bus riders with their own money (and they don't get paid lots of money) just because they felt pity for us.

You start getting kids riding a non air condition bus at a time when it reaches mid high 90's then your going to start getting some serious health concerns especially with the elementary school children who are pack 3 to a seat.
Then consider this some kids don't go to their local school so in my city they can ride transfer and it would regularly take me 45 minutes on a good day in good traffic. On the worse days it could take me up to 4 hours to get home.
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