Jump to content

Longer school days for Americans?


Enraged Slith
 Share

Recommended Posts

More to the point, there's extensive research showing that students learn a lot from each other in class, sometimes more than they learn from their teachers. If you separate out students who are performing poorly, you're denying them the chance to learn from more successful students.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 140
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Originally Posted By: Thuryl
More to the point, there's extensive research showing that students learn a lot from each other in class, sometimes more than they learn from their teachers. If you separate out students who are performing poorly, you're denying them the chance to learn from more successful students.


What about those who don't have trouble learning but just choose not too? No amount of forcing is going to get them to learn anything.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

First I said druggies and drop outs who wont learn under any circumstances. Keep those who try hard as sometimes they are alot nicer than those who get things straigt away.

 

And I think every country has drug problems. New Zealand may not have the same Drug levels but we are more trying to fight Obesity right now. 25% Overweight. Must resist cheeseburger!

 

Anyway it might be a nice change to have a quite classroom for once. Or at least quiter. smile

 

If there was a druggie school it would be easier to track the dealers. Just follow the students. And since they are being discrimnated against I wont call them druggies, how about "Pharmacutically Challenged" goverments insist we are politicly correct.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The concept of seperating "druggies" from the regular, and advanced, student body is just plain ridiculous.

 

Now, I've been in both advanced classes, and regular, concurrently. One thing I can say is that the atmosphere is much different. In the advanced classes, it truly is a learning environment at its best, I believe. However, segregating the advanced kids off from the regular students doesn't seem wise, as students do help each other. Taking the advanced students away from the regular student body, and putting them into accelerated classes, only takes away the best tutors from the regular kids.

 

Perhaps an after-school mandatory tutoring program would help. After all, you have to understand something well before you can teach it, and you're also helping your fellow students.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: Lord Safey
Originally Posted By: Thuryl
More to the point, there's extensive research showing that students learn a lot from each other in class, sometimes more than they learn from their teachers. If you separate out students who are performing poorly, you're denying them the chance to learn from more successful students.


What about those who don't have trouble learning but just choose not too? No amount of forcing is going to get them to learn anything.

Imaginary category. People choose not to learn for a reason. Fix the reason and they'll learn.

—Alorael, who would be fine with making vocational schooling a path in American education. Just letting people leave isn't acceptable, though, because that would just widen the gap. The socioeconomic predictability of success and failure in school says something about socioeconomics, not students.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: Lord Safey
What about those who don't have trouble learning but just choose not too? No amount of forcing is going to get them to learn anything.


I don't believe in giving up on any student, even when they've given up on themselves. I've already worked with students who were written off as "hopeless cases" by another teacher and within a few months seen their results improve dramatically: in some cases they ended up doing better than the class average. (And I'm not a particularly brilliant teacher: I just took the time to listen to them and help.) Every student has the potential to learn: when they're not turning that potential into reality, it's up to us to help them, not give up.

Now, I'll admit that at the schools I've taught at, I haven't really seen the worst of the worst. I've observed some pretty bad behaviour, but nobody's attempted to kill me yet (although one of my colleagues wasn't so lucky). But the knowledge that things are bad in some places shouldn't be an excuse for not making them better: quite the opposite, in fact.

Originally Posted By: Preposterous Phlebotomist

—Alorael, who would be fine with making vocational schooling a path in American education.


Vocational schooling is a good thing. It'd be a lot better if it didn't have a reputation as a second-class option for second-class students. A lot of schools are limiting the number of students they offer vocational subjects to because they don't want to be seen as a vocational school.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: Naughty Salmon
If your intent by segregating the "druggies and drop outs" is to remove them from your society, why not go all the way and toss them into the special "showers"?


Of course I didn't mean that. Just remove them from the class room envrinoment where they are distracting people at an age where we are highly influenced. I never said seperate top students from average students. One of the best ways to learn is to teach as you reinforce what you know and recap everything. I do this for my classmates and we all learn fine. It just would be easeir if we didn't have to put up with people who don't want to be there and make the class suffer from their own choices. It sucks.

Outside of school they are their own problem. Still a problem but geneocide is defiently not the answer.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: Thuryl
Originally Posted By: Hypnotic
Of course I didn't mean that. Just remove them from the class room envrinoment where they are distracting people at an age where we are highly influenced.


And then what, exactly? You literally want to put them on a path to failure.


No, but once they choose that path for themselves let them have it. You can't help those who don't want it. You can't teach those who don't want to learn and after at certain point it is nearly impossible to convince them otherwise.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: Hypnotic
Originally Posted By: Naughty Salmon
If your intent by segregating the "druggies and drop outs" is to remove them from your society, why not go all the way and toss them into the special "showers"?


Of course I didn't mean that. Just remove them from the class room envrinoment where they are distracting people at an age where we are highly influenced. I never said seperate top students from average students. One of the best ways to learn is to teach as you reinforce what you know and recap everything. I do this for my classmates and we all learn fine. It just would be easeir if we didn't have to put up with people who don't want to be there and make the class suffer from their own choices. It sucks.

Outside of school they are their own problem. Still a problem but geneocide is defiently not the answer.


It sounds to me like you've already given up on them, in your own head, and no amount of academic effort on their part will ever change your mind. That's too bad, because as one other person in this thread pointed out, a lot of the reason our educational system is organized as it is, is that cooperative learning tends to produce the best results.
You, by consciously or subconsciously segregating your fellow classmates, are shortchanging both your, and their, education. Well done.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: Master1
Math up through algebra is useful in everyday life, from doing simple home construction stuff to balancing your checkbook.
Though the latter is rarely, if ever, taught, and is infinitely more useful than a lot of things I learned through high school. How to graph a parabola? I got a month's worth of math homework on it. Simple accounting? It wasn't even offered.
Quote:
Require one, maybe two years of high school English. Enough to be competent in writing letters, applications, essays, and so on. But 4 years of English spent mostly on analyzing poems and dead authors? That can become elective for all I care.
There's a real laugh: Learning something in an English class. For six years in a row, I got the same semester of grammar repeated almost verbatim; the only real difference was that I had a new English teacher every two years.

As for any practical use, forget it. In 7th & 8th grade, I wasn't taught how to write letters, applications, essays, etc., because "You'll learn it all in high school." Then in high school, I still wasn't taught any of it, because "You learned it last year, so we're not going to cover it." Therefore, nearly all useful writing skills I had to learn on my own, and several years after the ink on my high school diploma had dried. There weren't even writing classes offered when I was in college, except for a semester or three of creative writing.

And let's not forget that all-important life skill: Diagramming sentences! I ended up wasting about three months per year for four straight years on this, and learned nothing new after the first two weeks.
Quote:
Also, lets not forget the good life skills. I'm not saying that requiring so much in the core areas is good, just that there are benefits to some gen-ed in the core areas.
Unfortunately, such things tend to be among the first things removed due to budget cuts. There are quite a few classes I signed up for in high school, but they were eliminated for lack of funds (although for some it was because of lack of interest).
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Private schools aren't all they're cracked up to be. Here in Maryland, we have lots of those high-and-mighty private schools. Many students are average at best and get in on athletic scholarships or because their parents are rich alumni (alumnus?).

 

Both the high school I attend and the high school I would have attended before moving here were some of the greatest schools in the nation. I'm not saying that all public schools are better than all private schools, just that many private schools aren't really a big improvement. All you do is pay a bunch of money to make your kid feel special and get a funny uniform.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There seem to be two sides to this debate: "we need more education to help kids" and "education sucks." These are not opposed. Both are true.

 

Yes, many schools are just not good at providing education. That is not an argument for providing less schooling. That is an argument for better schooling, and more could be a part of that.

 

—Alorael, who can't let Sss-Chah's comment just pass. De-evolution? Firstly, that is not how evolution works. Secondly, education is not a heritable trait. (Wealth is heritable, but not in a biological sense.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hypnotic, I'm rather surprised you've got such a sharp stance against kids who don't have the self esteem to try and get an education. Those "druggies" and "dropouts" are actual people with problems that need to be addressed, and hopefully helped, not left out in the cold to fail at life.

 

Some people just don't care, plain and simple, sure. But I've observed that the majority are the ones who have family problems at home, or their parents never focused on education and it robbed off of them (I remember this one kid in 6th grade that got pulled out of the only public school they could go to because her mom got into a fight with the principul over something about the lunch. I really wish I was BSing you). Most people want to learn, they just don't have the inner strength to go through with it. All you need is a few well-timed Fs to put you into a stupor (like me. I failed at least two courses in 8th grade. I'm still scratching my head as to how I got into my private school. Divine intervention?) and flunk for the rest of the year. They don't show it, but they're feeling it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While treating the reason is the best way to get people reinterested in school and learning. How viable is it to do this on a massive scale where every student is different? Some problems might be linked but it still involes communication where some students really don't want to open up, except to their fellow "Druggies" and "Drop outs". While this is the best way social services just dosn't have the resources it needs to do this.

 

If we moved them into an environment where the programme was suited to them to show them different ways of learning and the broader veiw of things it may be possible to reach out to them. Its hardly fair to have a lesson on learning if the rest of the class already is. When they are in the class the Druggies always shout random things and Drop outs just disrupt the class. I know this because my school is one of the worst in my area for this.

 

Those that are already high acheivers or striving just to achive do not need to be seperated.

 

A school has the power to move them from class or suspend them. Then after a week they are back. They might get transfered to another school but the same problem happens. All they are doing is passing the problem on while the rest of the students have to put up with it.

 

You say I think I want to set them up for failure? They have already given up. You can reach out but reaching out for a couple of people at the expense of others is not right.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How can we improve school? The only thing I can think of that seems to offer the possibility for a really big improvement on a large scale would be replacing textbooks with something more modern.

 

Now we can have movies and animations and interactive exercises, canned online for anyone to open at will, like a book. It takes zillions of person-hours to generate this content, but once made, it lasts forever. Already there's an awful lot available, and soon there will be an awful lot more.

 

It's relatively easy to pick and choose from all this stuff, and mash it up as you will. If there were no copyright issues to worry about, teachers who couldn't draw could just paste beautiful diagrams by other people into their online lessons. Actually the most valuable educational material may always be printed words. Nowadays, in principle, a teacher can pick and choose the clearest explanations from all over the world, piecemeal, instead of having to take everything in whole-textbook-sized packages, where there might be a few good chapters and a bunch of bad ones.

 

So what I think has to happen is for education to develop as much expertise and infrastructure for selecting and collecting content, as it has developed until now for creating books and lesson plans and classes. Obviously that's not trivial, but it's also obviously possible to do something along these lines.

 

The hope I see in this model is that it might scale well. If a few brilliant educators can create the clear explanations and beautiful diagrams, and a bunch more talented education managers can maintain big guided databases full of that stuff, then a large number of ordinary classroom teachers could give everyone the kind of education that now only comes in the very best schools. Sort of like how mass-produced consumer goods made by low-skilled workers on assembly lines are often better items than what even the few best craftsmen could make before the Industrial Revolution. I think we could try to have an Industrial Revolution for education.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: Hypnotic
When they are in the class the Druggies always shout random things and Drop outs just disrupt the class. I know this because my school is one of the worst in my area for this.

Originally Posted By: Hypnotic
I know this because my school is one of the worst in my area for this.

Can I put it once more? No, the point has been made. You admit that you are on one extreme, yet you use your experience to analyze the whole. Really?

And I have a tendency to call out. Should I be put into a special program? I know many "druggies" who don't call out, and can even help the class, even when they could care less. And drop outs? If there really is nothing we can do (that's a huge if), why would we waste resources putting them into a school that they'll just drop out of?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: Naughty Salmon
We shouldn't consider your experience then, if we are designing a model school system. After all, you do describe it as being unusual. Shouldn't we, instead, look at the average school, and investigate methods on improving it?


Of course in my first post outlining this, I did say "My opinion is..."

SoT has a good idea thought. Industrial revolution for school systems.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
I don't know about New Zealand, but America has enough druggies and such to start another country.


But how are these "druggies" made? Poor educational system? Maybe. Disruptive family life? Maybe. But a bad learning enviornment? Most likely.

Quote:
Can I put it once more? No, the point has been made. You admit that you are on one extreme, yet you use your experience to analyze the whole. Really?


Calm down, hun. It just very well be a possibility that Hypno's opinoions were slightly swayed by this discussion. In which case, embrace the alteration of mindset.

As for industrial revolution? Artemis thinks that everyone's attacking the problem of "bad schools" a bit too unopenmindedly. We should address each problem individually. Is it the teachers? The curriculum? After we ADDRESS the problem, them we might be able to zone in and fix certain aspects (or figure out how to, anyway.)

Artie out.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: Hypnotic
My opinion is that we move all the Druggies and Drop outs into one school and keep the hard wrking students in school. The teachers are then teaching those who do acheive so overall there are less dstractions and more work being done.


Yes, but then you then went on to promote segregation, without simultaneously explaining that this was a tremendous problem in your specific school. Since we've already determined you didn't actually mean that you wanted the druggies and drop outs to be gassed, all that's left is your plea for a change in the system which favors your education at the expense of others.

Is that how things are run in New Zealand?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seriously guys, there is absolutely no need to gang up on him like that. All he's trying to say is that if you dont want to learn, but you go to school because you have no choice, then there should be some way to feed off of that situation to make a better community. Back off, please. Shoving people into corners isn't going to make anyone see a different point of view.

 

Artie out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: Thuryl
Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity
I think we could try to have an Industrial Revolution for education.


We tried that before. It resulted in the school system we have today.


That was to train workers for the assembly line. The system needs to be revised to prepare workers for cubicles.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay I will try and explain my point of veiw better as I have left some bits out.

 

The "Druggies" and "Drop Outs" as I called them do not want to learn. I will admit there are some Druggies that do want to learn but personally I think if you use drugs then you lose privaleges as they are illgal.

 

If we moved these people into a place where they could be taught how to learn or provide some encourgament to learn then they actually might. There is no point keeping Drop outs in a place that they will drop out of as soon as they can. Druggies need to be taught to move away from drugs.

 

These people can also influence others to do the same as they are, so its best if they had the help they needed.

 

Not everybody can be taught the same way. Some need to be told, others like to read from a book, others like to watch movies. People need to be put into environments that they work best in to achive the best results.

 

Seregation is a hard thing to define as well. Techincally a company hiring Trained and Educated people is segregating its company from the less trained workforce. My idea is a type of segregation but only for those who won't learn otherwise.

 

As previosuly said the student tutor system can still happen but just with the remaining students.

 

My idea does not represent New Zealand just one student who is sick and tried of all the distractions Druggies and Drop outs cause.

 

@Master1: I don't wish to be rude but you are being a hypocrite. I do not want to speak for the whole system as I don't know it. Just saying what I think would work. You don't know the whole system ethier unless you have been to every teaching institution in the world. You are not a drop out nor are you a druggie therefor you don't need a special system.

 

My idea is on one extreame but all ideas are just that. No one idea gais 100% Aproval with everyone. Scientists proved that the universe started with the big bang yet I don't belive it. Global warming another issue. So please don't overcritasise my idea as I know it is unlike to ever be used.

 

P.s I know my spelling sucks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: Hypnotic
Seregation is a hard thing to define as well. Techincally a company hiring Trained and Educated people is segregating its company from the less trained workforce. My idea is a type of segregation but only for those who won't learn otherwise.


The difference is that a company exists to benefit its owners, while a school exists to benefit its students.

Quote:
Scientists proved that the universe started with the big bang yet I don't belive it.


I don't believe in witches, but they surely exist.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hypno--

 

First of all, who the heck are the "Drop Outs"? Presumably, if they are in school bugging you, they haven't actually dropped out yet. I assume this is your fatalistic and somewhat demeaning label for kids who don't take school seriously?

 

Quote:
I will admit there are some Druggies that do want to learn but personally I think if you use drugs then you lose privaleges as they are illgal.

The logical problems in this statement abound. Should anyone who uses illegal drugs be put at the bottom of the educational heap, or just those who use the drugs AND are part of this "Druggies" social subgroup? What about people who hang out with the "Druggies" and don't care about school, but don't use illegal drugs themselves?

 

What about kids who break the law in other ways? If I commit theft, should it compromise my education? That would be counter-productive if you are at all interested in helping kids get back on track...

 

Quote:
Seregation is a hard thing to define as well. Techincally a company hiring Trained and Educated people is segregating its company from the less trained workforce. My idea is a type of segregation but only for those who won't learn otherwise.

Thuryl kind of covered this, but to put it another way: the difference is that the company's purpose is not to hire every last worker. The purpose of a public education system is, however, to educate every last child.

 

If what you're really advocating is that people get individually appropriate teaching strategies and learning assistance, that doesn't necessarily require separate schools... the main point of separate schools would be to split people up socially because one group isn't comfortable having another group around.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The schools really do need to be changed. I don't exactly know how, but what is being done now seems like it will not be able to keep going for much longer. I see what Hypo is trying to get at, with separating 'druggies' and 'dropouts' (yes, partial segregation) and trying to solve their problems separately while the rest of the people in the school are allowed to learn better. I don't really agree with this. I understand the why, but it the how with what I have a problem with. I do not, however, see a clear way to fix this problem. The druggies and dropouts usually do not go out of their way to get help, and when help is given to them, they tend to refuse it.

 

Also, I agree with a point made a while ago with teachers actually teaching, instead of reading from a book. A while back in middle school, I had (also) had a science teacher who was funny, and he taught his subject very well and quickly. The work we did was efficient, and we even ended up going through two textbooks through the year. In that same year, I also had a very bad math teacher who, when I look back on that year, didn't end up teaching the class much, and we seemed to quickly forget anything that he somehow managed to teach us. In the star tests (or whatever they were called) that we get after the end of the year, I did better than I had ever done before in science, and my math scores were nearly one hundred points lower than my science ones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you separate out failing students and put them together, the result is more failure. This is almost always the case. It might work much better to take your "druggies and drop-outs" and seed them into the best schools, though of course then the perverse incentive to do drugs or become a drop-out, whatever that is, might cause problems.

 

—Alorael, who won't analyze further, because you seem to not want it. But he's still baffled by "drop-outs." Yes, students who drop out of school have something going wrong with their education. There's hardly only a single cause, though, and lumping them all together is not a good idea. And how many of them are also drug users? Or put differently, how many regular hard drug users don't drop out? Isn't there a fair amount of overlap?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
I know many "druggies" who don't call out, and can even help the class, even when they could care less. And drop outs? If there really is nothing we can do (that's a huge if), why would we waste resources putting them into a school that they'll just drop out of?


Quote:
First of all, who the heck are the "Drop Outs"? Presumably, if they are in school bugging you, they haven't actually dropped out yet.


Quote:
You, by consciously or subconsciously segregating your fellow classmates, are shortchanging both your, and their, education. Well done.


Quote:
Can I put it once more? No, the point has been made. You admit that you are on one extreme, yet you use your experience to analyze the whole. Really?


Quote:
. Since we've already determined you didn't actually mean that you wanted the druggies and drop outs to be gassed, all that's left is your plea for a change in the system which favors your education at the expense of others.

Is that how things are run in New Zealand?


Quote:
If your intent by segregating the "druggies and drop outs" is to remove them from your society, why not go all the way and toss them into the special "showers"?


Quote:
If you separate out failing students and put them together, the result is more failure. This is almost always the case. It might work much better to take your "druggies and drop-outs" and seed them into the best schools, though of course then the perverse incentive to do drugs or become a drop-out, whatever that is, might cause problems.


The hostility of this debate is really bothering me. I'm no moderator, but I think that I have the right as a human to point out the fact that Hypno essentially "gets the point." most or all of these quotes were taken from diffent posts. Right about now, including the remarks about New Zeland, it's starting to be bullying. You aren't arguing among yourselves, you're pretty much attacking Hypnotic. Like I said, shoving people into corners isnt going to make them see your point of veiw. As a human, not a moderator, I request that we wait until Hypnotic posts before everybody starts bombarding him with accusations. Please and thank you.

Arite out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: Artie Luv
The hostility of this debate is really bothering me. I'm no moderator, but I think that I have the right as a human to point out the fact that Hypno essentially "gets the point."


Hypnotic is being pretty hostile toward people who aren't even here to defend themselves. Turnabout is fair play.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Segregation already takes place. If you get caught with drugs, you're out of school, and then you have to go to a special place and learn there. Just ask my doorknob of a brother. I'm going to guess that there are some pretty hefty liability issues in retaining those students, especially in a place where they can "contaminate" the rest of the population. I'm sure none of you would want some hopeless piece of [censored] dragging down your child or brothers and sisters with them, and it does happen. There is a lot of peer pressure on kids, especially in High School, so it would be ignorant to say that drug addictions are never passed through connections they form with other students. The fact that it wrecks some people's lives makes it irresponsible to ignore. But, since not everyone is affected by this, nor are drug users always abusers, I'm not sure how I feel about the practice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Artemis - Healthy debate means using critical thinking to attack the ideas put forth by another. Often, it appears as if the attack is focused against a person, but in reality it is not. The moderating staff of this forum, which you have so roundly criticised here, are highly trained in recognizing ad hominem debating, and would, assuredly, remove it and chastise the offensive individual.

 

I am in full support of our moderating team, and would like to openly thank them for the job they do, as unpaid and over-worked volunteers, to make this place a pleasant part of the internets.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...