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Avernum 5: Death of the Hybrid?


Marak
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Ugh, I think this is going to turn into a wall of text, but try to bear with me.

 

I've noticed that Jeff has really done a tremendous job of learning what's Broken in prior Avernum titles and fixing it for the latest one. I've been alternating between A2, A3, and A5 lately and I'm noticing that the Party that I use to waltz thru A2 and A3 on Hard mode is getting stomped into the turf in A5 on Hard. Most Boss Fights (and most of the mini-bosses) require that I be FULLY COMPLETELY 100% BUFFED BEFORE THE FIGHT STARTS OR ELSE™, which is both challenging and very irritating.

 

But I digress. In earlier Avernums (2-4), my Party would be thus:

 

Char 1: Human Custom Meat Shield/mini-Priest, with lots of Str, Dex, End, Melee Weps, with a couple points in Int and 3-6 Priest Skill (usually enough to get Mass Heal, Unshackle Mind, and Mass Cure). Traits: Elite Warrior and something tank-ish like Good Constitution or Strong Will.

 

Char 2: Human or Nephil Custom Archer/Thief/mini-Mage, with tons of Dex and Bows and Tool Use, with a couple points in Int and Str and 3-6 points in Mage Skill (usually enough to get Haste, Slow, Ice Lances and MAYBE Lightning Spray). Traits: Typically Deadeye and Natural Mage.

 

Char 3: Human Custom Priest/Warrior, with a few points in all 4 physical stats (with an emphasis on Int), a few points in Melee Weps, and then a full 18 points in Priest Spells (eventually). Traits: for A5, Pure Spirit and Nimble Fingers (I LOVE First Aid in A4/5).

 

Char 4: Human Custom uber-Mage, with no Str or Dex or End, just Int and Mage Spells and Nature Lore and Arcane Lore and Spellcraft and (depending on the game) a few levels of Priest Spells for variety (and more Spell Energy). Traits: Natural Mage (duh) and usually something like Fast on Feet or Stong Will.

 

Long story short, after playing way too much WoW the last few years (and burning myself out something fierce), I came back to the Spiderweb site only to discover that not only was Avernum 5 out, but Avernum 6 is (sorta) nearing completion! I excitedly registered 5 and dove right in, creating the above party and, for something different, playing the game on Hard (I typically do Normal).

 

Wow. My Hybrid characters are terrible. I just got to Highground and let me tell you, that ambush outside the Anima lands was BRUTAL. In fact, any fight I win that wasn't 3 Goblins or 2 Worgs is BRUTAL.

 

But for that section in particluar, it's very, very hard to out-pace the soldiers spawning from behind you when every single enemy you have to fight your way past takes all 4 characters 3 entire rounds of focus-fire to kill and no, I'm not exaggerating. My "big bad melee" guy is hitting for 40 damage and double-attacks about 70% of the time, which is pathetic when any foe with a Name or a Purpose or a Rare Item Drop has 600+ health.

 

All fights go something like this: get into fight unbuffed, sigh, reload quick save. Enter combat manually, apply all buffs, engage the foe I now know is coming, and spend 3-4 rounds killing each foe because only my Mage spamming Lightning Spray is doing any damage. Assuming Haste for everyone, my Fighter hits for 40-90 twice per round, my Archer hits for 30-45 damage twice per round, and my Priest can Smite and run out of energy right away for 80 damage/round, while my Mage is nuking 3 foes per round with Lightning Spray for 80-180 damage each.

 

So I guess I'm just wondering... is it my build? Did I try to spread myself too thin? Should I forget the Priest part of my fighter and the fighter part of my Priest? Go straight Archer with like 2 points in Mage just to get Haste and then stop?

 

It seems like the new 5 points/level system basically makes my Tried and True Party impossible to duplicate in A5: there simply aren't enough skill points do to the things I want to do with the characters until they're Level 75, which is obviously not a level I'm ever going to reach (most games you're what, 33-40 by end game?)

 

Or, is this just the way Avernum 5 in Hard Mode plays? Fewer monsters, more HP, drawn-out battles? I'm curious what some of you veterans think.

 

P.S. I started a new Party on Normal and made them less Hybrid-y, and they're blowing thru everything so far (just reached the Drake Pillars area), but I can't tell if they're better because things in normal take more damage and have about 2/3 the HP of monsters on Hard, or if they're better because my build is better. It's sort of frustrating.

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Jeff said somewhere that Avernum 5 has a steep difficulty jump in the Azure Gallery.

 

This was also the first game where Jeff really asked beta testers how they were doing their fights and then he adjusted the game so certain tactics would no longer work. So now you are limited to only 2 summoned creations at a time limiting the availability of an instant army of creations that could protect you from harm. No more filling the screen with creations and letting them do the fighting for you.

 

Using control foe to charm opponents is more important since you can have an unlimited amount of new allies to even out some major fights especially against Morbo below Muck who has high damage resistances.

 

Next he adjusted essence armor so it no longer gave extra health. This is the first game where you couldn't run glass cannons with low endurance and rely on spells to increase health significantly. So plan on increasing endurance from Drake Pillar to Azure Gallery to get it around 6 to 8 depending upon game difficulty.

 

Beta testers tend to do what you did with buffing up before battle so that makes a big difference. The harder the difficulty, the more you need that little advantage. From normal to hard or torment, the fights take longer because the monsters have more health. You need to protect the spellcasters since they can do more damage and hit multiple targets per spell.

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Eh, I've played entire games of A2/3/4/5 and not cast a single summons spell on purpose (sometimes my finger slips while shortcut-casting), I find them to be... underwhelming in any game. Hrm, spend 4 energy and double-firebolt and kill the monster over there or spend 10 energy making a critter/shade that will appear in the worst possible spot on the grid, act sometime late next turn, die in 2 hits, and do 3 damage per strike? Boy, that's a toughie...

 

I know, some people love them and the better versions are supposed to be useful but I'm a huge fan of killing things outright vs. hitting them with Status Ailments (summons, daze, terror, etc). You can't afford to let anything live too long when your characters skimp on Endurance and focus on using Offense as the best Defense wink

 

Speaking of, skimping on Endurance is hurting my Hard Mode Party. If I don't have everyone Augmented, Stone Skinned, and Enduring Armored at all times, they die when a stiff breeze hits them =/

 

All in all though, it's a good thing. I'm playing A3 on Hard with the aforementioned Party and it's not Hard. Not in the slightest. My Polearm fighter is Assassinating things for 195 damage twice a round, I rarely need to enter combat to kill monsters unless they're 6 of them and/or they have ranged attacks.

 

Like I said, I LIKE that Jeff is able to look at prior games and say, "Ok, this this and this are broken, and this is useless, let's make them both in-line again."

 

Anyway, I'm in a ranting mood today, keep the feedback coming smile

 

P.S. Any advice on beating the Endurance Golem Trial in Tranquility? I'm not sure how you're supposed to win when you have 16 of them moving 15 squares to surround you from over 2 screen away and then they kill you with massive double-attacks even after moving, all before your 2 slower party members can take shelter in the nearby house (even though they're "hasted"). I've tried doing this "quest" about 15 times and honestly, I've just given up on it at this point. Also, not being able to have 3 people hide in the house while the Tank goes up and starts the event because "you can't do that in combat" makes it triply frustrating, illogical, and impossible.

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Jeff also simply tried to up the difficulty on the harder levels, making the difference between Normal and Hard greater than before. But A5 has been beaten with singletons on Torment, so it is still doable.

 

The Battle Disciplines are really good. Archers are weak. It's well worth being Divinely Touched and non-human. Control Foe is great if you use it carefully, because it will tie up enemies fighting each other. Acid Spray is a slow but economical way to kill almost anything. This is good because, yes, on the higher difficulties battles are long.

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Quote:
Any advice on beating the Endurance Golem Trial in Tranquility?


Line up your party between the nearest house and the center golem that you need to talk to. Wait until there are no other patrolling golems nearby. Then start the test and go into fight mode. Retreat into the house and close the door. Then wait.

It is possible to do it and this is the safest way to beat the test. Otherwise use an invulnerability potion on a high health character to act as a distraction to give the others time to escape.
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yes, the mighty hybird finally sucks ass in A5. In my new game (started on Hard), I have a nephil spreading his points between bows, mage spells, dex, Int, Tool Use and some melee (I figured I'd put the Tool Use on him since he's lagging behind in power anyways). He seems sort of a wasted slot right now and I'm pretty sure that's not just because of Tool Use (also bows rather suck on the higher difficulties as far as damage goes).

 

 

But in the end this might be better than in the old games where you could have characters who excelled at everything (mage spells, priest spells, and combat)

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The counter-example to "hybrid characters suck" are "successful" singletons. The primary difference appears to be XP/SP accumulation / distribution, which appears to be just a bit too low in A5 for full parties to allow adequate hybrid character creation. It's a different sort of game balance variable that was affected (inadvertently? intentionally?) when other issues were being addressed. The knowledge / wisdom items can help offset this to a limited extent, for maybe one or two hybrid PCs out of a four PC party.

 

I dunno; it's probably a good thing that parties with more PCs don't have all the advantages in the game. Want effective hybrids ? Go with solo / duo playing.

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I guess it really boils down to the simple fact that your characters are "losing" 3 Skill Points PER LEVEL versus the original trilogy. Skills cost the same as they did in prior Avernum games, they scale upwards in the exact same way, but you figure by Level 15 you're missing out on FORTY FIVE Skill Points for your Character (Hybrid or otherwise) that you're used to having if you've played A1-3 extensively.

 

To extend this even further, let's say you're Level 40 by the end section(s) of the game, that's ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY points that you're "missing", which when you think about it in terms of Avernum skill costs (where 11 to buy a new point in a Skill makes you go o_O), is a HUGE number.

 

I think this gets compounded even MORE when you discover (or read about) all the new, hidden, "uber" stats like Blademaster or Sharpshooter that require a heavy investment in 2 or even 3 stats to unlock. Now compound it one last time when you have to pump up the "uber" stat to Level 8 to get the Grandpappy stats like Magical Effiency or Lethal Blow to unlock. Good lord, no wonder you can't make a successful hybrid.

 

Sure, on Normal you don't really need the unlockable Skills to win, but I don't think you're going to get thru the sections (not without a lot of reloading) beyond the Anama lands without them in Hard or Torment.

 

Now whether or not this new type of character creation carries thru to A6 remains to be seen. In a way I like it - it forces you to either excel in one, MAYBE two areas, or your character becomes a jack of all trades, master of none. You have to admit that your characters did get a bit silly at high levels in the original trilogy, I remember having Casters in A3 with 18 in Mage Spells and 15 in Priest Spells and 15 Int and tons of points in Nature Lore, Arcane Lore, Spellcraft, etc. Being able to have 5 or 6 stats "maxxed out" at 15+ was a bit much.

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Intelligent hybridizing is actually very useful in A5. You can't spread one character among ALL offensive skills. But there is a huge diminishing returns factor. After a certain point, the damage return you get out of investing in skills that boost archery or melee (especially) becomes quite tiny, proportionally.

 

For the most part, the unlockable skills are not worthwhile simply because you have to waste a lot of skill points to unlock them. There are a few exceptions: Parry is good on a tank, Magery has very reasonable unlock requirements, and there is a (shaky) argument to be made for Blademaster on a melee fighter due to its fatigue reduction (and really, only due to that).

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What about Magical Effiency? I find it to be amazing just with the free ranks you get from Pure Spirit and/or Natural Mage, I can only imagine what it's like if you can manage to unlock it and pump it up even further. Heck, my Level 22 Hard Mode Natural Mage with 13 Efficiency (all from Natural Mage) is getting Lightning Sprays that cost 3-11 energy instead of 15.

 

So I guess my question is, what do you do to build a Melee powerhouse then? If you can't boost Melee/Pole any more, or Strength, and you say it's hardly worth it to unlock Blademaster, what's left?

 

I do see what you mean about diminishing returns though, my Level 22 Hard Mode Archer is at 7 Dex, 8 Bows, 11 Sharpshooter and her damage is strictly mediocre. At 1.75 levels worth of skill points to boost any of her 3 "primary" Archery stats, it's slow going trying to get her to do more damage, short of finding a better bow or an Archey-stat-boosting piece of gear.

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The point of diminishing returns is that with stats similar to yours and a decent bow, you might expect to do maybe 70 damage before armor, rough estimate. If you buy an extra level of one of those stats, you'll expect to do 72 damage before armor. Not a huge increase. And after you've bought a few more levels, you're looking at spending 8 or 10 skill points to increase your damage output by a mere 2%.

 

Melee is mildly better off due to Quick Action, but not much, because Quick Action was dramatically nerfed in A5 -- I suspect this happened accidentally, in the course of Parry being nerfed (again). Anyway, QA has less impact in general and very little impact above 10 points -- it isn't worthless even then but it's not a good value. The best options for melee powerhouses are

 

1) Combine with Tool Use to use up extra SP

2) Put extra SP towards Blademaster to reach 20 Blademaster (and hence 100% bonus fatigue reduction) without using +Blademaster items, freeing them up for other PCs -- really requires DT and EW, but you should have these anyway

3) Pump Parry and Riposte through the roof to make a tank

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Originally Posted By: Rockpaper
For the most part, the unlockable skills are not worthwhile simply because you have to waste a lot of skill points to unlock them. There are a few exceptions: Parry is good on a tank, Magery has very reasonable unlock requirements, and there is a (shaky) argument to be made for Blademaster on a melee fighter due to its fatigue reduction (and really, only due to that).


Well, if you're going to get Parry and Blademaster already, you may as well go for Riposte too. You'll probably only get it near the end of the game unless you pump your fighter full of knowledge brews, but none of the skill points you're putting in the prerequisites are wasted.

Also, Sharpshooter isn't bad if you're using an archer, although pure archers aren't very good.

I kinda liked the way the later Might & Magic games handled diminishing returns. Skill costs increased as you raised the skill, but you got more skill points per level at higher levels. So there weren't too many dead levels where you couldn't raise a skill at all: at high levels, you could generally choose between raising one of your higher skills once, or raising a bunch of your lower skills.
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I think the basic problem is that in Jeff's games spellcaster power rises at an accelerating rate with higher level, since you get new spells that spread higher dice over more opponents. Energy costs don't rise as fast as damage done, and anyway a party tends to compensate energy costs by returning to town more frequently rather than by reining in its mages. And everything's health tends to rise at least in proportion with level. But fighter damage gain decelerates, because of the rising skill costs for the same extra small damage dice. So fighters have a built-in tendency to sag into harmless tanks as the game goes on.

 

This can be compensated within Jeff's system by letting the fighters find better weapons throughout the game, by exotic skills like Lethal Blow that open up at higher levels, by Battle Disciplines that get better and more frequently usable with level, and by buffing spells that make it worthwhile for mages to support the grunts instead of just blasting. So far my own small sample of experience indicates that a slith with a good pole arm, or a divinely touched singleton anything, can keep on doing enough damage to seem effective even late in the game. But I've consistently found it hard to keep a regular human swordsman from looking pathetic in the second half.

 

Jeff does seem to be aware of these issues, and to be tinkering with them in every successive game. I gather that in earlier games the balance was rather the other way around, with awesome buff spells turning fighters into unstoppable myrmidons. We'll see how the A6 tinker comes out. So far I think I'm seeing some improvement, and at any rate things are a little different.

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Originally Posted By: Rockpaper
Intelligent hybridizing is actually very useful in A5. You can't spread one character among ALL offensive skills.


that's not my idea of a non-hybrid character anyways. Rather, it means you have to specialize even more. I'm beginning to think that even having a defensive and an offensive tank is a good idea (if you're going to go the low magic/high combat route) where the offensive tank would boost DEX among others, not only for archery but also to unlock Quick Strike, maybe also boosting Parry later on for some defense, whereas the defensive tank would go the Endurance/ hardiness route.
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I love A3 for that reason alone: the melee system was a blast because your fighters (esp. with a good Polearm) could keep up with the Mages on damage. Yes, it was broken. Yes, doing 200 damage Lethal Blows at Level 20 in the Filth Factory is just ridiculous. But it's still a lot of fun smile

 

I'm seriously thinking of just scrapping my current Hard-mode Party and trying something completely different, like Staight-up Tank, Tank/Priest Hybrid, Straight-up Mage, Mage/Priest Hybrid. As has been said, Archers are a joke and I can use my Tank to blow points in Tool Use (as was suggested earlier in the thread), and I'll still have 2 Healers and 2 Mages (albeit of differing levels of skill), which seems to be mandatory when things get hairy.

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Oh, I did. I blasted thru A4 as quickly as I could on Hard, got my chars up to Level 34 or so, managed to get the "good" ending

Click to reveal..
wherein you toast Rentar-Ihrno v2.0 for good
and immediately registered & fired up A5.

 

But honestly, after playing thru A2 and A3 with 3-4 parties each, I'm still more familiar with the 8 points/Level system than I am the 5 points/Level system.

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One thing I've found quite useful in the recent games is to give every PC 1 level of priest spells so they can self heal/cure/bless when necessary. I give my mage enough Priest skill to cast Repel Spirit. That's some very minor hybridization.

 

I seem to keep making the same sort of party of four, when not running a duo or singleton. Nephils rule, and it can be quite good to have a slith pole fighter. Humans are simply a disadvantage, except they will gain a few extra levels by late game compared to the others. I run one or two humans simply because it annoys me to have to role play cats and lizards. I want to see some of my own kind. Every game during beta testing, I strongly encourage Jeff to consider giving humans an advantage (like extra intelligence/magical ability or extra melee ability.) Every time, he refuses. Therefore, power-gamers will be running around as furries and reptiles.

 

On the upside, I recently laid out in no uncertain terms to Jeff the problem with some of the upper tier skills like Lethal Blow, Anatomy, and Riposte, and happily, he has chosen to make these more accessible for A6. Very happily. I look forward to the new Slartanalyses when the game is released.

 

This is my typical party:

 

1) Melee (nephil or human) EW/DT

2) Pole/thief (slith) EW/DT

3) Priest/archer (nephil) DT/PS

4) Mage/minor archer (nephil or human) DT/NM

 

The archery is a secondary skill for the magicians, which is easy if they are nephils, and aquiring bows and thrown is very useful toward unlocking Battle Disciplines.

 

With a duo, I tend to run a slith pole fighter/thief EW/DT, and a nephil mage/priest DT/NM. You really do need to carefully structure your PCs to waste as little as possible and accent their specialties.

 

I agree with SoT—melee fighters tend to be the stragglers by late game compared to pole fighters and magicians. In A6, with Dual Wielding, this has changed...or certainly can change, if you build your melee PC a certain way.

 

-S-

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, I made an entirely new Party, started Hard mode over completely, took everyone's advice, and came to the following conclusions after getting back to the point that my original (failing) Party got to:

 

1) Summons are incredible in A5. Pop them out early, get War Blessing and Haste on them, and they will go out and tear things up. If you can keep them alive you can get up to an extra 200 damage/round out of them..!

 

2) If you're going to make a true Hybrid Character, like my Priest/Tank/Tool Use Character, feed him or her the vast, vast majority of Wisdom Elixirs/Crystals that you pick up, else he/she will fall way behind your other Characters.

 

3) Endurance is your friend. One of the main reasons I was having so much trouble with my original group was that my squishie Mage-types all had 4 Endurance and were walking around with 85 Health (119 with Augmentation) in the Azure Gallery. Monsters would eye them up, walk past my fighter, and take them out in 2 bites. By contrast, my new Mages have 6 Endurance, which gives them 113 without Augmentation and almost 150 with it. They are immune to such one-shotting - and it only takes about 12 Skill Points to boost their Endurance from 4 to 6. I plan on getting everyone to at least 8 Endurance eventually, which in addition to making your Casters far more durable, opens up Magical Efficiency for them if you also pump up Magery.

 

4) Having 2 Characters with 12-14 points in Mage Spells is amazing to behold. Take spells like Summons, Lightning Spray, Haste, Acid Rain, Slow, Daze - and then imagine the ability to cast any of them 4 times in a single round? It makes so many fights so much easier. For instance, the Unstable Mass hiding in the abandoned Vahnatai city during the post-Anama Darkside Ambush was literally unkillable with my original Party. I gave up after going in fully buffed and failing miserably 6 times in a row. By contrast, my new Party went in there with buffed Summons and 2 casters with Lightning Spray and Strong Daze and kept the thing stun-locked until it died without splitting even once.

 

5) If you can't do good damage with Sword and Board, focus on debuffing your foes. I gave my Priest the Discipline Blade and my Warrior the Jinx Blade and now they can debuff everything in sight: combine the free Curses from the Jinx blade with Shield Breakers and Leg Sweeps from both my Warrior and Priest, and in a few rounds all your foes are Cursed or Weakened (or both). Sure, the melee swings themselves aren't doing much damage but that's what my dual Mages are for. Finally, a Shield-Breaking Smite or Repel Spirit at range is incredibly handy.

 

So this 2nd play-through has been much more enjoyable. With my old Party the whole game had devolved into "get into combat, hope I have all my buffs and a perfect strategy and a good smattering of luck or it's 'hit F4' time". Having a Party that had to "practice" every single fight 3 times before winning? Not fun.

 

My new Party, on the other hand, has had REAL trouble with only a few fights:

 

The Endurance Quest in Tranquility was a near thing - but with 2 Mages and 2 Tanks with Invulnerability Potions I managed to just kill all 12 Golems before the test ended - on my 2nd try. Note that my original Party could not complete this quest, even after a dozen attempts.

 

The Hraithe hiding in the abandoned Vahnatai city in the middle of the Darkside Ambush. Had to do that one twice as well, as the first time I made the mistake of trying to kill the 3 Skeletons first. Bad idea. The Hraithe kept them all Hasted while nailing my characters with AoE fire spells and Daze and Terror spells until I had used up 3 Energy Potions for each of my characters and still lost. Then I wised up and used Summons to keep the Skeletons occupied while I focus-fired the Hraithe down. It was still a tough fight and I still used a few Energy Potions, but I came out of it much better off than if I had managed to win on the first attempt.

 

So yeah, I know, TL:DR, but I thought this post might be handy or give some insight to those folks who are having troubles and are looking for pointers on Party Builds.

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Hrm, survey says...

 

Taya, Priestess/Warrior

 

15 Priest Spells, 9 Intelligence, 3 Spellcraft, Pure Spirit, Nimble Fingers. Level 2 Summon Shade.

 

P.S. I don't summon Shades very much since Summon Aid > Summon Shade

 

Emrin, Mage

 

16 Mage Spells, 10 Intelligence, 5 Spellcraft, 6 Magery, Natural Mage, Fast on Feet. Level 1 Summon Aid.

 

Lanea, Spellflinger

 

14 Mage Spells, 13 Priest Spells, 11 Intelligence, 9 Spellcraft, 3 Magery, Natural Mage, Pure Spirit. Level 1 Summon Aid.

 

 

In any case, as long as you have a decent number of points in Intellect and Mage Spells (and at least a couple points in Spellcraft), your Summons will last for 5-8 rounds, even if your Summon spell is only Level 1 or 2.

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In general it's not worth buying higher levels of skill in spells. Unlike in Jeff's older games, an extra point in a spell just adds the same as one extra point of Mage or Priest skill, Spellcraft, or Intelligence. By midway through the game, you've probably got all those other things totalling 20 or more, so we're talking about a 5% boost or less — and it only applies to that one spell. That's usually not worth the asking price for improving the spell. Though if you're finding that your buffs are consistently wearing off just one round too soon, or your charms are failing just a bit too often, or your enemies are surviving your blasts with a tiny sliver of health — then it might possibly be worth it.

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Yeah, I noticed that buying higher "ranks" of my spells didn't seem to be doing a whole lot (plus it's freaking expensive even when you're not getting gouged by the trainer), so I started only buying "ranks" 2 and maybe 3 of my Staple Spells: buffs, summons, mass damage, mass curing, unshackle mind, stuff like that.

 

With 3 characters able to cast 12+ spells, coins are always in short supply. I regret buying some of the spell ranks I did early on, because now I could use the cash for training stuff like Pathfinder or Magery or Anatomy, but too late now - the money's been spent.

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