Viable Character Builds

[SacredPath_82]

After toying around with all the Avernum games for quite some time, I think I've come to some good conclusions about character builds. Basically, I think despite the flexible system, I think the game is more fun (AND more effective) if you specialize to some degree. My latest inspirations are from playing A4, but these builds are viable in all Avernum games with maybe some minor changes. In most Avernum games, I have found that you should either get a healthy XP Bonus, or else the XP Penalty can be as high as it will. Something in between isn't as efficient. Even if this should help only the noobs, I'm interested in all feedback. Here are the results :

 

 

TANKS

 

 

1. The Whirling Pole Dancer (pun intended)

 

Race: Slith

Traits: Elite Warrior

 

This guy is a whirling dervish of destruction, and he uses his favorite weapon for both offense and defense. Basically, this build revolves around parry, blademaster and riposte.

 

A good parry skill can make you virtually invulnerable in melee early in the game. Plus, it's the easiest (I think) special skill to unlock. You can even do that at character creation without losing too many points. Optionally, you can go with a high Dex + Defense first, then buy some ranks in parry, THEN put points into it.

The charm of this build is that it relies on Riposte for offense. Naturally, your tank will get hit VERY often every round, and (in theory) you can riposte on every single attack you receive. And those high strength/skill ripostes with a polearm do hurt

That's especially handy with those pesky enemies with high parry/riposte skill themselves. Just stand in front of them and wrack them with javelins, then when it's their turn feed them some of their own medicine!

 

 

2. Battlefield Sniper

 

Race: Nephil

Traits: Fast On Feet and/or Deadeye

 

 

This guy is an interesting crossbreed between an archer and a fighter, but able to duke it out in the frontlines.

Firing a bow is now not as cheap (AP wise) as it used to be, but it's become even nicer in A4+ for overcoming Parry. Naturally, bow and sharpshooter are great for this guy, though... being a Nephil with a high Dex and maybe the Deadeye trait, you could even try to not train Bow in the beginning at all until you can buy some ranks in it That's not recommended for beginners though.

This guy relies on the Dex,Luck,Gymnastics (to which he gets a bonus) routine to avoid getting hit at all if possible. Since you can also use bows in melee, there's the question if you wanna train in melee weapons at all... though I would recommend it, since it also opens up Quick Strike (which stacks with Fast On Feet for delicious results). Still, this guy focuses more on archery and defense than melee damage. A great and versatile tank.

 

 

3. The Knight Champion

 

Race: Human

Traits: Weakminded (and maybe Sluggish)

 

 

This woman is a walking tin can, nuff said. She doesn't mind being slapped around quite a bit (don't ask for contacts). In fact, she doesn't dodge blows at all, Preferring to just stand there letting enemies defoil her armor while she mightily and skilfully cleaves their skulls.

This build focuses on Endurance and hardiness (stop laughing) for defense. In fact, I found this to work quite well even on Torment. The fact that she levels up quickly along with high Endurance will give her great hit points, and with the heaviest armor + shield + protective spells + healing she will get through anything. Give her some defense if it doesn't work well enough for you, it's not wasted since that will stack with the 'Enduring' spells later on.

For offense, she should have enough skill points to level up Strength, Melee, Blademaster and Quick Action. Quick Strike can help her attacking more often or offsetting the AP penalty (if you chose Sluggish). A stylish character with a different twist.

 

 

4. The Paladin

 

Race: Human

Traits: Divinely Touched (and maybe Sluggish)

 

 

The only build in this category that can also cast spells, this character is immensely versatile. It's still skill focused enough to work well in a 4 person party though.

This character works basically like the Knight build above. He will have fewer skill points since he also raises Int and Priest Spells though, so I wouldn't take the Quick Action/ Quick Strike route with him. Instead, he can learn Anatomy to do some extra damage. I wouldn't invest into archery skills either, he has his hands full casting spells and fighting.

 

 

More categories are pending

[Earth]

3rd would also benefit from EW.

[SacredPath_82]

Originally Posted By: Earth2025

3rd would also benefit from EW.

No doubt EW would boost her well, for the extra Blade Master and even more for the damage reduction from Parry, true. OTOH, my idea was to level up fast, which enables her to profit immensly from a high Endurance. That's why I suggest slapping both Weak-minded and Sluggish on her; she doesn't need to move/attack a lot, and no low Int fighter can resist a mind spell anyways. Also, faster level ups would result in more skill points.
Both options are good I think, it would need some testing to see which works out better. Otherwise, it's a roleplaying thing

edit:

to boost her offense you could also do the following...
raise Blademaster, then raise Int all the way to Anatomy, raise Anatomy all the way to Lethal Blow. Then keep pumping that.
If you've taken both negative traits, pumping quick strike could cancel out the AP penalty you received. Raising your Int for Anatomy could cancel out the mind resistance penalty. So all that's left would be a 15% Xp bonus. Since you need to be a higher level to land a lethal blow, this could or could not have a visible impact. Sounds worth testing.

edit2:

btw... taking both Fast On Feet and Sluggish should, in theory, cancel each other out, except for the dodge bonus you get from Fast On Feet, at only a -2 Xp penalty. Question is if that bonus really is sizable though.

[Alorael at Large]

Are you sure that Fast on Feet and Sluggish have exactly opposite effects? I've never used the latter, but I suspect that it might have a higher chance to remove AP than Fast on Feet has to add AP. The results would really be a three AP range, and randomness isn't exactly desirable.

 

1. Slith + Elite Warrior is a good combination, and it only gets better with, say, Divinely Touched. The build looks fine, except Riposte requires far too much investment to reach. You're better off with simpler skills.

 

2. Interesting build, but be aware that on higher difficulties you can't avoid getting hit. You're much better off leaving Defense, Gymnastics, and Dexterity alone and piling on armor. And yes, training nothing but bows works fine.

 

3. Experience penalties are much better than experience bonuses. Because the experience you get scales with your level, bonuses and penalties have lower effects than the listed percentages. Much lower, in fact. The benefits of Elite Warrior + Divinely Touched are a lot bigger for a fighter than the few extra levels you get for leaving them out.

 

As an aside, while Sluggish is just egregiously bad (AP is everything and penalties are worthless), I'm not so convinced that Weak-Minded is bad even though Strong Will is popular. Charm is powerful when used on your fighters, but it's also rare enough that you can rely on Unshackle Mind to compensate.

 

4. Anatomy is too expensive for its benefits, and Sluggish is still terrible. Otherwise it's a reasonable build.

 

—Alorael, who thinks that may be the summary of most of the special skills: nice, but far too expensive to unlock and then not even worth the skill points they cost to raise. Parry is good. Magery is good. The rest? Take 'em or leave 'em.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Salable truth, not salacity

Are you sure that Fast on Feet and Sluggish have exactly opposite effects? I've never used the latter, but I suspect that it might have a higher chance to remove AP than Fast on Feet has to add AP. The results would really be a three AP range, and randomness isn't exactly desirable.

They don't cancel. Sluggish ALWAYS lowers your AP every round, I believe, and Fast on Feet only raises it sometimes.

Quote:

1. Slith + Elite Warrior is a good combination, and it only gets better with, say, Divinely Touched. The build looks fine, except Riposte requires far too much investment to reach. You're better off with simpler skills.

Riposte is actually pretty good for a pure fighter. You won't have access to it until you can make Knowledge Brews, pretty much, but by that point there aren't very many better skills to put points in. It's more useful in A5, where you get access to Knowedge Brews earlier and Blademaster is a better skill in its own right.

Quote:

—Alorael, who thinks that may be the summary of most of the special skills: nice, but far too expensive to unlock and then not even worth the skill points they cost to raise. Parry is good. Magery is good. The rest? Take 'em or leave 'em.

Sharpshooter is also pretty good.

[SacredPath_82]

thanks for the feedback!

 

 

Originally Posted By: Salable truth, not salacity

2. Interesting build, but be aware that on higher difficulties you can't avoid getting hit. You're much better off leaving Defense, Gymnastics, and Dexterity alone and piling on armor. And yes, training nothing but bows works fine.

 

True that neglecting damage resistance altogether would be a bad idea (that was a bit exaggerated). But what do you mean piling on armor? Naturally, he would be wearing armor + shield. That doesn't lower the chance to dodge, does it?

 

 

Quote:

3. Experience penalties are much better than experience bonuses. Because the experience you get scales with your level, bonuses and penalties have lower effects than the listed percentages. Much lower, in fact. The benefits of Elite Warrior + Divinely Touched are a lot bigger for a fighter than the few extra levels you get for leaving them out.

 

Basically, all the XP bonus does is steal levels from your other characters. Since this char will raise the medium group level, the party as a whole will receive fewer XP, which will hit the penalty characters most. Still, the idea was only to raise this char's level for more HP from Endurance and maybe for Lethal Blow.

 

Quote:

4. Anatomy is too expensive for its benefits, and Sluggish is still terrible. Otherwise it's a reasonable build.

 

 

I take it the damage output is not comparable to the old Assassination skill? I only unlocked it once and played around with it, but that was on a char that was already hitting very hard, so I couldn't judge it.

 

 

 

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Originally Posted By: Salable truth, not salacity

Are you sure that Fast on Feet and Sluggish have exactly opposite effects? I've never used the latter, but I suspect that it might have a higher chance to remove AP than Fast on Feet has to add AP. The results would really be a three AP range, and randomness isn't exactly desirable.

 

They don't cancel. Sluggish ALWAYS lowers your AP every round, I believe, and Fast on Feet only raises it sometimes

 

I see. So the question is mostly academic, but still... seems like you could trade one AP now and then (since sometimes FOF will kick in) for a certain dodge bonus. Still would be interesting to know how large that one is

 

Also I have a feeling that the level gains due to bonuses are still underestimated. If you have a party where three chars have each, say, a penalty of 50% and more, and one char has a bonus of +15%, that should result in a very noticable increase in levels for that guy.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: SacredPath_82

Also I have a feeling that the level gains due to bonuses are still underestimated. If you have a party where three chars have each, say, a penalty of 50% and more, and one char has a bonus of +15%, that should result in a very noticable increase in levels for that guy.

It'll make a difference, but the difference will probably be only about 5 levels by the end of the game. Maybe less.

[SacredPath_82]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Originally Posted By: SacredPath_82

Also I have a feeling that the level gains due to bonuses are still underestimated. If you have a party where three chars have each, say, a penalty of 50% and more, and one char has a bonus of +15%, that should result in a very noticable increase in levels for that guy.

It'll make a difference, but the difference will probably be only about 5 levels by the end of the game. Maybe less.

Crapsakes. Still, even one level might make a difference as far as Lethal Blow is concerned. I mean... why got penalties nerfed so grossly? And I don't mean the scalable experience system (it's great), I mean the fact that the penalties give such low bonuses.

[Alorael at Large]

It's not that the amount of experience isn't as written. It's the scaling experience system. You gain a level faster, and suddenly the enemies you're fighting give less experience. Gain another level, and it gets even worse. You eventually stabilize gaining experience very slightly faster than a party with heavy experience penalties and several levels ahead of them.

 

The dodge bonus from Fast on Feet is insignificant. All dodge bonuses are insignificant. On high difficulties enemies will basically always hit, and even on normal the investment required to keep most hits from landing is higher than the benefits you could get by accepting hits and putting points elsewhere.

 

—Alorael, who forgot about Blademaster and Sharpshooter. They, like Magery, simply make a character better at what they do. Use the skills when other skills get too expensive.

[Lilith]

Something definitely changed between A3 and A4 in the experience system, though. In A3 and BoA, it was a perfectly viable strategy to take negative traits for the experience bonuses, and you actually would end up gaining levels significantly faster as a result. The scaling became much sharper in A4 and A5, making negative traits substantially less beneficial.

[SacredPath_82]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Something definitely changed between A3 and A4 in the experience system, though. In A3 and BoA, it was a perfectly viable strategy to take negative traits for the experience bonuses, and you actually would end up gaining levels significantly faster as a result. The scaling became much sharper in A4 and A5, making negative traits substantially less beneficial.

well, one difference was how high the XP gains from negative traits were. Brittle Bones alone gave +30, and Brittle Bones + Sickness Prone was teh [censored].


Ok, so you convinced me that negative traits aren't worth anything in A4. Now tear me apart, you mighty beasts.

As for the perfect A4 party, it's safe to say that:

1. Human, Fast On Feet + Elite Warrior, Tank

with melee weapons, bows, concentrating on the dodge skills as well as parry/riposte, blade master, and maybe some hardiness strewn in

2. Slith, Elite Warrior + Pure Spirit or Divinely Touched

secondary tank and secondary priest, I prefer PS because after raising Pri to 6 at creation, with only minor investment after that, you will get access to a lot of spells

3. Nephil, Fast on Feet + Natural Mage

using bows, mage spells, also investing/training in QA and melee to open up QS, which has delicious results on an FoF Nephil. Raising his dodge traits will help him, and NM allows for ludicrous amounts of armor on him

4. Human, Pure Spirit + Natural Mage

Main Priest and pure spell caster, he concentrates on both schools, as well as Tool Use.



- is the perfect party.

Though it could be argued if you shouldn't drop the Human Tank altogether and go with 3. Apart from that, this lineup is rock solid.

[Lilith]

I wouldn't bother with two melee tanks, personally. You can get by with one, since Parry is so powerful in A4. I also like priest spells better than mage spells, thanks to healing and Divine Retribution.

 

My A4 party was one human swordsman, two Nephil archer/priests and one human mage/priest/thief. I guess replacing the swordsman with a Slith pole fighter wouldn't make the party significantly worse, though. In fact, there isn't much reason not to make everyone a Nephil or Slith if they're going to be using bows or polearms at all.

[SacredPath_82]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

My A4 party was one human swordsman, two Nephil archer/priests and one human mage/priest/thief. I guess replacing the swordsman with a Slith pole fighter wouldn't make the party significantly worse, though. In fact, there isn't much reason not to make everyone a Nephil or Slith if they're going to be using bows or polearms at all.

Exactly. While the tank can at least benefit some from being a Nephil, there really is no point in making a Nephil dedicated mage. Spells like Fire Bolt will stay useful until very late and come at almost no spell point cost.


edit:

lol, now after reading up I know why my XP penalty idea didn't work. It's the single highest level in the party that counts, not overall level (like in DnD). Of course, that's just outright silly. There's no reason why you would do that except to prevent people from accumulating crazy XP on one character with a 4 person party. OTOH, as things are now, you could remove the XP penalty traits from the game altogether.

[Lilith]

Nephilim do get Gymnastics -- the dodge bonus isn't worth much, but it does mean they act first in combat a lot more often. I'm not sure that's worth a 10% experience penalty on its own, though.

[SacredPath_82]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Nephilim do get Gymnastics -- the dodge bonus isn't worth much, but it does mean they act first in combat a lot more often. I'm not sure that's worth a 10% experience penalty on its own, though.

the XP penalty doesn't bother me anymore, the dodge bonus is very small, and as for acting first, my Human tank raises Dex, Quick Action, Quick Strike, and has the Fast on Feet trait. That should make up for one or two points less in Gymnastics.

[Nioca]

So instead of taking a small hit to experience, you're taking a... larger hit to experience plus a hit to skill points to acheive the same effect?

[SacredPath_82]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

So instead of taking a small hit to experience, you're taking a... larger hit to experience plus a hit to skill points to acheive the same effect?

as for taking a hit to experience points... I guess he will be a bit higher in level, maybe by 2, at the end of the game than i.e. the Slith. Of course he can decrease overall XP the party gets by a very, very small bit. But it's nowhere near enough to make any difference.
As for skill points, nothing wasted there because I would pump those skills all the same on a Nephil. The only difference is that in the end, the Nephil's Gymnastics skill would be ~4 points higher. No big deal.

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: SacredPath_82

well, one difference was how high the XP gains from negative traits were. Brittle Bones alone gave +30, and Brittle Bones + Sickness Prone was teh [censored].

Try combining Cursed at Birth (+20%) with Completely Inept (+40%). It's not as bad as it sounds (especially in A1), and still gives you a large XP bonus.

[Earth]

I wouldn't put Nat. Mage and Pure Spirit to same char since even Pure Spirit or Nat. Mage learns both sides of spells well enough (and those last levels of Mage or Priest aren't that needed due those spells are very rarely if at all used), Div. Touched could be better.

[SacredPath_82]

Originally Posted By: Earth2025

I wouldn't put Nat. Mage and Pure Spirit to same char since even Pure Spirit or Nat. Mage learns both sides of spells well enough (and those last levels of Mage or Priest aren't that needed due those spells are very rarely if at all used), Div. Touched could be better.

If you want to pump both schools, NM and PS are definitely handy. It'll save you a load of skill points. A difference would be maybe if you want to be a mage but also want to get Priest skill no higher than ~8 (or whatever you need for mass healing/curing).
DT on a pure mage is somewhat wasted I think, at least in a 4 person party. Sure, the magery bonus is nice, but neither blademaster nor sharpshooter nor the damage resistance are that great for him

[Randomizer]

In Avernum 4, Divine Touch is somewhat useful for the magery bonus. It does add up and the experience penalty doesn't make much difference.

 

In Avernum 5, Divine Touch is very useful because Blademaster reduces fatigue for battle disciplines.

[SacredPath_82]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

In Avernum 5, Divine Touch is very useful because Blademaster reduces fatigue for battle disciplines.

true. Also, I give all my mages some combat ability in A5, for battle disciplines. That's why I stopped making Priest/Mages in A5

[Earth]

Having 2 healers and 2 hasters is nice at some points.

[SacredPath_82]

Originally Posted By: Earth2025

Having 2 healers and 2 hasters is nice at some points.

true, though with 3+ casters in the party I find I never use any potions/scrolls. Which is a bit of a waste since they don't sell for much, and the ability actually is super powerful (compare this to DnD where using scrolls is more of a hassle than it's worth).

[The Mystic]

Well, I save a few potions and scrolls, for emergency use. Very handy when you want to cast something and are out of spell points and energy potions/elixirs.

[Randomizer]

Or when you want several actions per turn by taking advantage of their lower action point cost.

[The Mystic]

Also true. Attacking/spellcasting usually costs about 5 AP or more; using potions/scrolls costs about 3 AP. Therefore, you can do more per turn.

[SacredPath_82]

^ that's why I like having someone with Fast On Feet when I'm playing with only 2 mages.

[The Mystic]

Only two mages? I actually prefer four. Well, four combination mages/priests, but still...

[Earth]

I use healing potions and exlixirs alot during battles and save sc's sps to attacking or during those survival places like at A5 had (could say maybe too many), potions/elixirs+mass heal and augment and protection is very helpful.

[SacredPath_82]

Originally Posted By: The Mystic

Only two mages? I actually prefer four. Well, four combination mages/priests, but still...

that might be fun once, but always?...

anyways, I have to be low on magic to get myself to do proper micromanagement. Otherwise, it's click and destroy, and sometimes click and reload.

[The Mystic]

That's one great thing about Jeff's games: There are a lot of "right" ways to build your character. It just happens that I prefer to have four people who can cast anything; the only drawback is that I sometimes run out of spell points (as well as potions/elixirs to replenish them) in the middle of big battles.

[S M Adventurer]

After reading some of these posts, it made me think my first A4 party wasn't really built that well. I had an Elite Warrior, Fast on Feet Slith warrior, a Natural Mage human mage/priest/archer combo, a Natural Mage human mage, and a human priest. (I forget what traits the priest had.)

 

That build seemed to get me by so far, although they were a few hard fights. I had no idea Divinely Touched was so powerful in A4. It makes me want to start a fresh party. I've got to play A4 again soon.

[Alorael at Large]

Assigning skill points poorly is the way you can build a party poorly. Poor trait choices don't actually matter immensely unless you want to powergame (or are playing on Torment). All of your choices were fine, they just weren't picked for maximized slaughter efficiency.

 

—Alorael, who wonders if the Empire's changing fortunes have anything to do with the immense number of divinely touched heroes banished to the underworld.

[Slawbug]

I disagree somewhat. Unless you assign skill points REALLY poorly, the impact of highly optimized skill point assignment decreases drastically as your level rises and the total skill points you have earned increases. This is due both to the increasing cost of the skills, and the decreasing proportional impact 1 point gives at higher skill levels versus lower skill levels.

 

Traits on the other hand do not provide decreasing benefit at higher levels. Instead their benefit increases, particularly since the efficiency of adding points to those skills manually decreases as stated above.

 

In other words, a melee fighter who assigns skill points with RP in mind rather than optimizing, but has Divinely Touched and Elite Warrior, is going to be an order of magnitude better than a melee fighter who carefully optimizes his skill points, but has Good Constitution and Cursed at Birth.

[Earth]

Originally Posted By: Hello, my name is %n

—Alorael, who wonders if the Empire's changing fortunes have anything to do with the immense number of divinely touched heroes banished to the underworld.

Maybe those are left Empire Army (prolly w/o telling higher 1s) or are Empire spies and/or infiltrators.

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: Not funny in the first place.

—Alorael, who wonders if the Empire's changing fortunes have anything to do with the immense number of divinely touched heroes banished to the underworld.

Shouldn't have thrown all those natural mages and elite warriors down there either.

[Earth]

nor pure spirited priests or those thiefs/rogues who can pick any lock.

[Alorael at Large]

At least throwing the thieves into Avernum makes sense.

 

—Alorael, who wonders if Avernum was more careful about who got banished to the Abyss. They knew firsthand what sending down some of the best and brightest could lead to, and clearly they had incentive not to have the Abyss send its best agents to kill Micah.

[Earth]

yea sending thieves makes sense but Empire could have hire those or just kill them but they didn't so their loss.

[Faerie Storm]

I like one of 2 party configurations of parties with 3 character parties.

 

Party 1 (regular):

 

Tank Slith fighter:

I use the traits elite warrior and sluggish on my slith.

I then give him lots of endurance and pole weapons skill. He also gets a bit of defense, assassination and hardiness it the beginning. Then of course he has some points one dexterity and strength. When he levels up a bit he will get a bit of priest training for emergency healing.

 

Human Mage:

I give my mage the the traits natural mage and divinely touched. I give her some intelligence and a lot of magery along with some arcane lore. as she levels ups she will learn a bit of priest spells for emergency healing and the thrown missiles skill in case she runs out of spell points.

 

Nephil Priest:

I give my Nephil the trait natural mage. Then the nephil gets lots of priest skill, intelligence and potion makeing.

as he levels up he gets defense and hardiness to and a little bit of magery.

 

Party 2 (magic party):

 

Slith warrior/mage:

elite warrior trait

I start this character with three levels of magery and lots of pole weapon skill. Added with endurance, dexterity and strength this makes a good fighting character.

 

Human mage/Priest:

natural mage trait

I start this char with mostly mage, priest and intelligence stats. Early on she will need to be protected but will be able to back the others up with a lot of powerful spells.

 

Nephil Priest/archer:

Sickness prone trait and fast on feet

I star my Nephil with lots of priest skill and intelligence with a bit of magery, a bit of potion make and some archery. With his negative trait he will level up faster so he can improve his archery to attack twice in one round. once with archery and once with spells.

 

I like the advantage of having only 3 characters because it allows you to pick up other characters. Also having only 3 characters splits the experience amonst 3 rather then amongst 4