Garrulous Glaahk Namine Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 K, Thanks for your help guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 The term Tier in regards to creations is fan-invented and was never used by Jeff. Nevertheless, Fyoras, Thahds, Artilas are Tier 1 creations, Roamers, Clawbugs, and Vlish are Teir 2 creations, Drayk, Battle Alphas, Glaahks are Tier 3 creations etc. It would make sense that an upgraded creation, like the Battle Beta, would also go up one Tier. So while a Battle Alpha might be a Tier 3 creation, a Battle Beta would be a Tier 4 creation. Same idea could be applied to Plated Bugs, Shock Tralls, Eyebeasts, Cryoas, etc. The Great Archon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Enraged Slith Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 If you're curious about strength, it varies from game to game. Drayks and Vlish will usually obliderate everything in their path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 By G5 that is not true. Vlish are good but not great; they fit their tier. So do drayks. War tralls and rotghroths/rotdhizons are real powerhouses. —Alorael, who actually thinks the upgraded creation counting as a tier up isn't a bad approximation. Of course, that's not true at all for the temporary "upgrades" like shock tralls, pyroroamers, and their ilk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Namine Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 Yea i didn't care about the power just its rank xD, thanks for your help guys. Also is there an actually list i can see? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Link to what? All the creations are listed in-game. —Alorael, who could link to several walkthroughs that discuss the merits of creations if you'd like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Namine Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 Sorry that was a type i meant list. Like Does an Unstable Vlish count as tier 3 or tier 4? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Alorael By G5 that is not true. Vlish are good but not great; they fit their tier. So do drayks. War tralls and rotghroths/rotdhizons are real powerhouses. Regular drayks aren't very good, but Dikiyoba is having pretty good luck with cryodrayks so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Namine Sorry that was a type i meant list. Like Does an Unstable Vlish count as tier 3 or tier 4? It's effectively tier 3, but it's very bad for tier 3, so don't use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Namine Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 So is tier 4 the highest? or is there a tier 5? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Quote: —Alorael, who actually thinks the upgraded creation counting as a tier up isn't a bad approximation. Of course, that's not true at all for the temporary "upgrades" like shock tralls, pyroroamers, and their ilk. Thats a good point. Pyroroamers certainly can't take out a Roamer one-on-one. Shock Tralls certainly can take on War Tralls, however. They could probably take on several and be victorious, ideally. And, of course, what about things like Batons, Servant Minds, Serviles, etc. Podlings are probably best fit with Tier 3 creations, I think. Magic creations certainly. Rotghroths could take them out with little trouble, for example but Battle Alpha's could have trouble. Plus they start appearing when other Tier 3 creations do. Patchworks are a bit more difficult to place, since they don't really come up at all, save the endgames and the Repository/Shadow Road. Still, I think they'd be around tier 4. Once again, based on personal observation, tier 4 creations, one-on-one with a Patchwork, are on about the same footing. Meanwhile, War Tralls and some such chew them up. I guess they would go with Battle Creations, since they have a physical Melee attack, and are basically an overgrown Battle Alpha on four legs. Edit: Namine: The Highest Tier, I would think, is Tier 6, since Ur-Drakons and Eyebeasts are the most powerful creations you can make. The Great Archon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Tier 5 is Drakons, Gazers and War Tralls (and, effectively, Burning Kyshakks, Unstable Firebolts and Rotdhizons). I guess you could count Ur-Drakons, Eyebeasts and Shock Tralls as tier 6 if you wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Namine Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 Ok, thanks for your help everyone, i got it now. xD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Untamed Banana Slug Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba Regular drayks aren't very good, but Dikiyoba is having pretty good luck with cryodrayks so far. Wait, what? Regular drayks are awesomesauce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Namine Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 I find the regular Drayks a bit weak as the game goes on. They seem to miss more then they hit too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chittering Clawbug Potato Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Drayks are a good creation, but I find that they get replaced rather quickly by War Tralls, which you get very early in Gazaki-Uss. Cryodrayks, however could still be added in for variety, as it is always good to have more than one type of attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 The trouble with cryodrayks is that they're basically just levelled-up cryoas with a bit of bonus health. Their ranged attack is relatively weak, although it does have the advantage that few things resist it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 G5 removed most of the ability to rely on a single creation well beyond where its tier is supposed to be powerful. Drayks are fine for the mid-game, and cryodrayks are fine a bit later than that, but neither one is going to serve you well by the game's end without diligent leveling. And you're still probably better off with a trall even with the higher essence cost. —Alorael, who thinks that's a good thing. The vlish steamroller is fun, but it also makes too many creations not worth using at any time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Namine Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 How are burning Kyshaaks in G5? Do all creations suck except for battle? (thinking for playing the game as a shaper for once) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I've heard that Burning Kyshakks are actually not bad, but I don't have personal experience with them. Fire and magic creations are very good for the first half of the game, but once you get War Tralls there's not a whole lot of reason to use anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Namine Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 Thats a shame xD, the creations seem too unbalanced in this game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 It's a fundamental problem with the way shaping skills work, really. Late in the game, having a balanced mix of creations isn't usually worth the cost of raising more than one shaping skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Namine Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 Oh well, i'll go for all rounded anyways, its more fun to have different type of creations. Ex. Having an eye-beast, ur-drakon, rhozidon, war troll, unstable kyshaak, and unstable wingbolt xD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Why the unstables? They're impossible to maintain and level. A regular wingbolt and kyshakk would do fine. —Alorael, who would rather have a regular rotghroth than a kyshakk. Rots are just plain excellent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Namine Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 I like them xD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Gondor2222 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan what about things like Batons, Servant Minds, Serviles, etc. The Highest Tier, I would think, is Tier 6, since Ur-Drakons and Eyebeasts are the most powerful creations you can make. Serviles are obviously a tier 1 creation, even the most lowly shapers create their own serviles to do their bidding (if they support the Shaper ways of course), and I'd place servant minds and the living draykish boat thing in tier 4, judging purely from the fact that they're similar (building on the combat stats of servant minds), and the skill of the shapers that are allowed to make them. Of course, if you listen to the random tidbits of information, you find that mines, batons, living tools, pylons, etc. are actually GROWN, not shaped, so they don't actually count. You can even find human non-shapers growing them in certain places. I'd say the tiers actually go up to 7, with the Creator creatures and the Unbound being in the 7th tier, even though you cannot create them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Most Shapers have serviles to serve them, but do they create those serviles? I got the distinct impression that the vast majority of serviles are born naturally and that new ones are created only when a new type is necessary. —Alorael, who does suppose that leaves the question of where the servile youths are. Of course, the same can be asked of human youths, so maybe there are creches kept away from war zones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Gondor2222 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: The Pukka Panjandrum Most Shapers have serviles to serve them, but do they create those serviles? I got the distinct impression that the vast majority of serviles are born naturally and that new ones are created only when a new type is necessary. —Alorael, who does suppose that leaves the question of where the servile youths are. Of course, the same can be asked of human youths, so maybe there are creches kept away from war zones. Well, the naturally born serviles all can have their bloodlines traced back to shaped serviles, so they are the descendants of shaped serviles, and therefore are a creation. ANYWAY! I made a somewhat empty tier map...it only has creatable creatures, unbound, and important plot creations...Here it is..http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/194/geneforgecreationtiers.jpg It's a VERY large image, about 3000 by 1000 pixels, so if you have a slower computer, expect it to take a while to load. EDIT: OOPS! I put the Creator creature into tier 6 when i'm pretty sure it belongs in tier 7..I fixed the image Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Serviles are almost certainly not the equivalent of tier 1 creations. It's mentioned several times in the series that the reason the Shapers prefer to breed them is that they're very difficult to shape properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Gondor2222 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: Thuryl Serviles are almost certainly not the equivalent of tier 1 creations. It's mentioned several times in the series that the reason the Shapers prefer to breed them is that they're very difficult to shape properly. So then maybe a tier 4 as a lower equivalent of a servant mind or one of the drayk boats things? (What are those called anyway?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Living Crafts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Gondor2222 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan Living Crafts. I hope you don't mean to suggest that i put serviles into the same group as mines, batons, living tools, etc. Serviles are either shaped or descended from shaped serviles, whereas mines, batons, and living tools are grown and farmed, usually by non-shapers. They belong in entirely different groups. EDIT: I was thinking this..http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/1186/geneforgecreationtierst.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 No, "Water-Drayks" are called Living Crafts. Creations could be split into two main categories, War Creations and Economic Creations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Gondor2222 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan No, "Water-Drayks" are called Living Crafts. Creations could be split into two main categories, War Creations and Economic Creations. so...http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/194/geneforgecreationtiers.jpg ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Shouldn't Gazers and War Tralls be a tier above where you've put them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Gondor2222 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: Thuryl Shouldn't Gazers and War Tralls be a tier above where you've put them? Yes, I guess they should.. Btw should golems be in tier 5 or 6? Thanks for staying with me through all this, the original image was put together very hastily... EDIT: So far I have this..http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/194/geneforgecreationtiers.jpg EDIT EDIT: darnit, when i rearranged rothgroth and rotzhidron i forgot to color them EDIT EDIT EDIT: fixed it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Namine Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 Can battle betas, and ur glaahks, and cryodrayks really take on a kyshaaak? I think some upgrades shouldn't count a whole tier up, like pryoroamers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Gondor2222 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: Namine Can battle betas, and ur glaahks, and cryodrayks really take on a kyshaaak? I think some upgrades shouldn't count a whole tier up, like pryoroamers. The system isn't based on combat stats necessarily, rather, the difficulty of shaping them. the fact that you need to be skilled in creating a roamer (3 in the skill) to create a pyroroamer means pyroroamers are more complex, and thus are on a higher tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Namine Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 Oh i see, thx. What about spawners? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Gondor2222 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: Namine Oh i see, thx. What about spawners? Spawners, golems, and the like are trickier to place since we have no idea what level you'd need to make them were they creatable. For them I simply place them in a tier judging from how powerful their creators are across the game. For example, all of the shapers i've seen that are known to have created golems or spawners are strong enough to create rotzhidrons and war tralls at the least, so I place golems and spawners in that same tier (tier 5). But as far as I know, Shapers that are only powerful enough to make up to tier 4ish creations never have been known to make golems or spawners, meaning the golems do not belong in the lower tiers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gondor2222 Serviles are either shaped or descended from shaped serviles, whereas mines, batons, and living tools are grown and farmed, usually by non-shapers. Serviles are usually grown (like children, not like crops), and those mines, batons, and living tools are also either shaped or descended from shaped mines/batons/tools, usually the latter. They are in fact quite similar: shapers are judicious in their use of power. If it's easier to breed than to shape, they make the first generation and let their creations procreate. —Alorael, who suspects that these are all difficult for different reasons. Serviles are complicated critters with very large and human-like brains. Yes, even the stupid ones. Mines explode and kill you if you make them wrong (maybe like pyroroamers?). Living tools and batons have fiddly little pieces that need to be made exactly right or the creation is absolutely useless (although how a living tool's tiny tentacle appendages are harder than, say, a vascular system is unclear). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Gondor2222 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Ok then, I moved the serviles to a separate area and included other living tools (EDIT: not as in the item living tools, but all of the tools that are shaped for use by shapers/humans/etc) in it. They count as not being in a tier because the tools don't count towards shaped battle creations. The serviles don't count because the serviles are almost never shaped anymore. the new image: http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/194/geneforgecreationtiers.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall A less presumptuous name. Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 It looks good to me. The non-battle creations are rather awkward, but hey, what can you do? Not to mention the countless types of vlish... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Gondor2222 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Originally Posted By: Master1 Not to mention the countless types of vlish... Well, could you get me screenie of those vlish facing the same direction as the rest of the catalogue? I could make more.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Namine Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share Posted August 11, 2009 I would ignore all of the other "variations" because they're basically the same thing but made with more power, like the warped fyora. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk SamSniped Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Oh the horror!You forgot to make the Slitherzaki/G4 Rebel Channeler/Drakon a normal drakon! (Hint-look at the new drakon graphic,look at the old drakon graphic) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 The Graph isn't perfect, since there are still many other creations that need to be roastered in (Terror Vlish, Searing Artila's, Battle Gamma's etc), but still, great job Gondor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Gondor2222 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan The Graph isn't perfect, since there are still many other creations that need to be rooastered in (Terror Vlish, Searing Artila's, Battle Gamma's etc), but still, great job Gondor. Well then gimme pics! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the shaped boats only appear in G1? In G3, they don't appear at all, and it would seem that that is where they would be most prominent. Perhaps they were Barred for being too closely related to Drayks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall A less presumptuous name. Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 That seems fairly reasonable. It also seems like something that wouldn't be to common, especially after the PC's mishap in G1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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