Loyalyst and Rebels

[Spddin Ignis]

I just want to know who is a loyalist and who is a rebel and who is a trakovite. I would also like for you to state your reason. I already have a good idea of whose what but i just want to know every bodies opinion. This is not a debate on whose wrong and whose right because we all know what that will degenerate into.

[Potato]

I think that I find myself siding with the shapers (this is my viewpoint, not how I usually play in-game; I love going canister-mad, killing everything that insults me and being all-powerful). A great power like shaping should be restricted, as it is very destructive in the wrong hands, and it's not like they're hoarding it within their themselves. Regular people can study and go to school, and through hard work, learn things themselves.

 

The rebels get pretty crazy towards the end too. Most of the humans are canister-mad, the Drakons are power-hungry and destructive, while the servile rights and ideals they once fought for in the beginning have pretty much disappeared. In G5, everything has basically degenerated into a massive power-grab for Terrestia.

 

However, I do think that the intelligent serviles should be treated as equals and given every right we do as sentient beings.

 

Also, you forgot about the Trakovites. There are some of them lurking around here too

[Spddin Ignis]

Personaly i dont think the shapers should hunt down the trakovites like the do. They can be taken care of after the war, and its not like thye're a big threat anyway. The only trakovite i have a problem with is litalia.

[Dikiyoba]

On the contrary, the Trakovites are a large threat since both the Shapers and the rebels rely so much on shaping. Hunting down the Trakovites isn't a good way to deal with the problem, though. While it may scare people out of joining them, it doesn't defeat the idea.

 

Defeating the idea is hard to do, though. The best bet is to point out all the good that Shaping does and how most of the negatives can be controlled. Also, blame all the negatives on the Shapers if one is part of the Rebellion and vice versa.

 

Dikiyoba.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Trakovites are not a large threat simply because they don'tshape. The only threat the trakovites pose is a slight nuisance and demoralizing the people. So long as people support the Shapers, the trakovites don't really stand much of a chance. However, they do have a moral high ground, at least in many people's eyes. They aren't going anywhere, which includes up.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Master1

Trakovites are not a large threat simply because they don'tshape. The only threat the trakovites pose is a slight nuisance and demoralizing the people.

Have you seen what happens on Litalia's path in G5?

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin

I just want to know who is a loyalist and who is a rebel and who is a trakovite. I would also like for you to state your reason. I already have a good idea of whose what but i just want to know every bodies opinion. This is not a debate on whose wrong and whose right because we all know what that will degenerate into.

If I lived in the Geneforge universe, I'd definitely throw my lot in with the Rebels. Why?

1. The Shapers are far too autocratic for my tastes. For goodness sakes, you can't even harbour certain opinions without being targeted for death.

2. The Shapers can't govern effectively. This is demonstrated by their inability to meet a threat to their Empire. Some people have pointed out 'But they are under a lot of pressure." Well yeah, that's one of the means by which you judge the value of a government, by observing how well it responds to internal and external threats.

3. Many classes of independent creations are strong and intelligent enough to fight for their freedom, so hey, let them. These sapient beings are made to be slaves and then targeted for extermination when they refuse to allow their will to be crushed. Is it any surprise that they fight back?

[Spddin Ignis]

I agree that if seriviles rebel, they have the right to fight and as do drayks. Drakons just want to horde the shapers powers for themselves and the humans are just totaly jealous.

 

i would still got with the shapers though because in my opinion shaping is a volatile art with the potential to cause great harm so only a select few who demonstrate the nesecary control should be allowed to use this.

 

Also i dont think that the rebels leading terrestia would lead to any more peace then what the shapers have brought. Though the shapers are strict they kept their world in relatice peace until the rebels came.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin

I agree that if seriviles rebel, they have the right to fight and as do drayks. Drakons just want to horde the shapers powers for themselves and the humans are just totaly jealous.

i would still got with the shapers though because in my opinion shaping is a volatile art with the potential to cause great harm so only a select few who demonstrate the nesecary control should be allowed to use this.

Also i dont think that the rebels leading terrestia would lead to any more peace then what the shapers have brought. Though the shapers are strict they kept their world in relatice peace until the rebels came.

Yes, I can understand why some would argue in favour of the Shapers. "The Shapers, for all their faults and mess-ups, have managed to keep the peace (note: by suppressing dissent with violence and fear. Let's not forget that) up until recently. If they are removed from power, then somebody far worse could fill the power vacuum. Better the devil you know than the drakon you don't."

Revolution does indeed introduce uncertainties. What would occur after the Shapers were dethroned *is* uncertain, it could result in a scenario far worse. But what is certain is that life under the Shapers for serviles and other intelligent creations sucks, and it isn't much better for any humans who chafe under the Shaper's autocratic and oppressive rule. I find the probability of things being better after Shaper rule higher than them being worse.

Also note that simply because the Shapers as a caste would cease to exist doesn't necessarily mean that there wouldn't be any regulations regarding Shaping. The only difference is that those regulations could be decided upon by society as a whole, instead of just a privileged caste. I suspect that this is what happens in both rebel endings. All intelligent creations and humans would have an input, which is only fair, since Shaping does effect them.

To be honest, one of the main reasons I wouldn't side with the Shapers is simply because I couldn't perpetrate the actions you are expected to commit as a loyalist. Loyalist behaviour in the game includes killing:

- Fleeing servile refugees.

- An intelligent thahd who is simply trying to protect his friends

- Citizens engaging in thoughtcrime (Trakovites).

- Serviles in concentration camps who dare express outrage at their treatment.

And I can't in good conscience do the above.

I also have little respect for the Shaper Council. One Councilor is selfish and flaunts the laws, another backstabs her own soldiers to negotiate a surrender, two have no backbone and are manipulated like puppets, and one is totally insane (although clever, admittedly). Alwan is respectable, and Shema is arguably OK, but the rest aren't worthy of ruling two (oops, I mean one) continent.

Worse yet, the Shaper Council essentially uses its own Outsider citizens and younger Shapers as meatshields. Have you ever noticed that it is the Outsiders and lower ranked Shapers who do the bulk of the fighting, the same people who the fatcats at the top deny the power to?

On the flip side, check out the drakons. Every drakon is hardcore and willing to take calculated risks. For crying out loud, in the Ghaldring ending it is the drakon army who spearheads the attack on the coastal provinces, they actually tell the human and servile warriors to bugger off to administer the conquered territories. Which, in hindsight, was sort of a dumb move, but at least I can respect Ghaldring and Akhari more than 6 out of the 7 members on the Shaper Council.

And yeah, the drakons as a whole aren't exactly a pleasant species, but I can sympathise. They *were* brought into a world where they were immediately targeted for extermination by the dominant force. And progressive self-shaping has made them rather arrogant, but as the drakons point out, they self-shape so that they have the strength to 'take their free'. They use self-shaping as a survival mechanism, similar to buffing up in prison so that you don't get sodomised in the showers. Had the Shapers attempted to defuse the insurrection with diplomacy, instead of escalating it with "Kill all drakons!", then perhaps the incentive afforded to drakons to self-shape into haughty monstrosities would have disappeared.

[Spddin Ignis]

But you have to remember that everyone(human) has the ability to test and be a shapers, and particular the humans that dont make it become very jealous of the ones who worked hard to become what they are. The shaper council may be acting irrationaly now, when under pressure yes. but the rebels act irrationaly always.

 

They were pushed towards desperation to win, and in that desperation they released the unbound killing innocent people. Each of the council memebers is trying to end the war in his/her way...is taygens plan worse then releasing the unbound, is astorias plan worse then the rebels killing off the drakons after the drakons give all they got to end the war.

 

People respond to threats differently. The shapers are only human and they are scared. They have a threat and it risks destroying all they've worked for. The councils once arrogant behaviour is what kept them in power. Once some shapers started to lose confidence thats when they started to lose.

 

I only have respect for a few rebels and i have symapthy for even less. If there are servilles that want to escape from the dera reachs...i let them because i know what taygen is like. i respect ghalddrin, yet ghaldrin is becoming more and more shaper like. He is vicous and arrogant. The rebels are no different then the shapers is all im trying to say. They all have problems, they all have different ways of dealing with them

[Omlette]

Remember also that the Shapers are trying to preserve a civilisation that's stood for hundreds of years, whereas the rebels will simply destroy it. Surely it's reasonable to preserve something even if some of the people in charge of it are themselves highly objectionable?

 

-E-

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin

But you have to remember that everyone(human) has the ability to test and be a shapers,

But the selection process isn't democratic, and it sure isn't based on merit alone. Loyalty to the Shapers and a dogmatic belief in the current status quo (Shapers on top, creations at the bottom) is essential if you are to be accepted to the Shaper order. In otherwords, if you want to learn how to Shape, you must place the Shapers on a pedestal and regard everyone else as inferior.

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and particular the humans that dont make it become very jealous of the ones who worked hard to become what they are.

And who can blame them? It's hardly fair (or sensible) that only Shapers have any say regarding Shaping, especially since Shaping affects *everyone*. "Gee, sorry our failed experiments are attacking you, can you please fight them off for us? And no, you are forbidden from Shaping creations to defend yourself against the rogues that we are responsible for inciting to violence. We made the mistake, now you clean it up without gloves."

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The shaper council may be acting irrationaly now, when under pressure yes.

But that's the thing, the Shapers justify their autocratic and downright oppressive rule by claiming that they are the only ones who are responsible enough to wield the power of Shaping and rule over a continent. As the Geneforge series demonstrates, this claim is bunk. The Shapers have failed to use their powers and govern responsibly. If people like Taygen are allowed to Shape, then why can't Ghaldring? If a self-interested individual like Rawal is able to ascend to the position of head councilor, why can't Akhari?

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but the rebels act irrationaly always.

Not true.

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They were pushed towards desperation to win, and in that desperation they released the unbound killing innocent people.

Innocent people die in war, that's inevitable. The Rebellion unleashed the Unbound to destabilise Shaper rule, and it worked.

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Each of the council memebers is trying to end the war in his/her way...is taygens plan worse then releasing the unbound,

Yes, since it comprises of the intentional genocide of multiple intelligent species, the very species that the Shapers have been oppressing and forcing into servitude for centuries. The Unbound are more along the lines of indiscriminant destruction, whose overall aim is the destablisation of the Shaper regime. The Holocaust vs. the carpet bombing of German cities comes to mind.

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People respond to threats differently. The shapers are only human

The Shapers like to claim that they are more than human, and use that claim as a justification as to why they monopolise power. But when they mess up, we should overlook it because they are 'only human'? No, sorry, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

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and they are scared.

Not nearly as much as the Outsider humans who they throw on the front lines.

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They have a threat and it risks destroying all they've worked for.

That's what happens when you become decadent. If the Shaper Council can't fight off a bunch of rabble despite having centuries of experience in Shaping under their belt, along with near limitless resources and two (err, I mean one) entire continent, then maybe they don't deserve to be on top.

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The councils once arrogant behaviour is what kept them in power. Once some shapers started to lose confidence thats when they started to lose.

The Shapers are still arrogant, it's just that that arrogance is no longer deserved. They went from the battlefields to the research chambers, they enlisted Outsider humans to do their fighting for them, they became insular and separated from worldly affairs, and they stopped acting decisively.

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If there are servilles that want to escape from the dera reachs...i let them because i know what taygen is like.

So does the rest of the Council, but they do nothing. Perhaps Alwan should have adopted Ghaldring's method of operation when it comes to dealing with his fellow Councilors, who do nothing but drag their heels.

"He disagreed with me. Multiple times. Challenging me once shows spirit. More than that, and you are interfering with the war against the Shapers."

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i respect ghalddrin, yet ghaldrin is becoming more and more shaper like.

Anyway, isn't that a good thing, given how much you favour the Shapers? Look at it this way, Ghaldring's totalitarian rule would probably be more efficient and free than that of the Shaper regime. Why have a squabbling corrupt oligarchy ruling over everything and getting nothing done, when you can have a single decisive dictator who acts, reacts, and adapts? If a rebellion ever rose up under drakon rule, Ghaldring would have no qualms whatsoever with entering the fray and scissorkicking anyone who dares defy him.

[Spddin Ignis]

If alwan adopted ghaldrins methods he would be more like astoria, wouldnt he...a traitor. The rebels desztabalize shaper rule by kiling more innocent people then necesarry. And you think that everyone should be allowed to practice shaping freely. That would make more uncontrolled roguesm, more desiease and more madmen. If we're talking about the freedom of creations that different, but giving something as powerful as shaping to everybody? its suicide, it will destroy the continant from the inside out.

 

And look at the rebel ending. wehat happened to ghaldrin?

 

And how is ghaldrins unbound different from the purity agent? Atleast the purity agent is a one time thing to "destabalize" rebel rule. The unbound go rampaging into shaper lands killing more innocent outsiders then shapers will ever. Taygen is only killing creations. If you had a choice to kill a human or a cat which one would you choose?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin

If you had a choice to kill a human or a cat which one would you choose?

Your analogy fails utterly because many creations are people, not animals. The only difference between a cat and a human in the Geneforge world would be that the cat can give themselves a bath with their tongue.

Therefore, Dikiyoba would kill the human. Water conservation is important!

[Spddin Ignis]

Fine. I need a new analogy...

[Spddin Ignis]

Either way, i would rather stop the drakons by killing all creations than having the drakons send out more unbound.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin

If alwan adopted ghaldrins methods he would be more like astoria, wouldnt he...a traitor.

That's a tricky one. If assassinating particular members of the government is required for the preservation of your nation, I wouldn't call it treason. There is a huge difference between Alwan killing councilors like Astoria (who is selling out her nation to the Rebels), and Astoria facilitating the Rebel's war against the nation she administrates.

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The rebels desztabalize shaper rule by kiling more innocent people then necesarry.

Whether they kill 'more than necessary' depends on who you ask.

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And you think that everyone should be allowed to practice shaping freely.

Personally, yes. Everyone should be allowed to practice Shaping freely, up until the point it harms another against their will. Once that happens, execution time.

But again, I'd like to point out that even with the Shapers dethroned, it is still possible for whoever replaces them to put regulations in place. No Shapers does not necessarily = anarchy, it would fall to the creations and humans to decide what is best for them.

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And look at the rebel ending. wehat happened to ghaldring?

He overextended. Either way, he did achieve the Rebellion's primary purpose, which was to blugdeon the Shapers into submission and 'take their free'.

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And how is ghaldrins unbound different from the purity agent?

How is the Holocaust different from the firebombing of Japan?

[Spddin Ignis]

Still, Being ruthless didnt save ghaldrin any...he still ended up dead. He was betrayed by his own if you will.

 

And you say that regulations dont have to result in anarchy/monarhy....lets say the creations and humans can decide who can shape as a society, some people will still be cast out due to these regulations. These people will inevetably rebel and cause another war.

 

You say that everyone should be able to shape...why dont we give nukes to everyone who asks for them? That would include some countries that we're currently at war with...hey, lets give them this power and trust them not to destroy the world with it... Doing that would result in nothing but the extinction of man kind...shaping is the same way

[Alorael at Large]

Shaping isn't nukes. It's much more akin to guns, and in the USA we do gleefully allow everyone to be armed. It doesn't work well according to many, but it also hasn't resulted in mass deaths or mass rebellion.

 

Consider Monarch in G4. Yes, he wreaks havoc, but he is stopped, and his death (or escape) is more or less inevitable. One powerful shaper can't stand against the combined Shapers (or the combined rebels).

 

—ALorael, who thinks perhaps you should consider shaping a little bit more. If shaping can be considered like firearms, then regulation is inevitable under any regime. You can restrict it nearly absolutely to government, or you can make them widespread but limit what kinds of shaping, or you can do nothing. The collective power of government still enables control.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug

How is the Holocaust different from the firebombing of Japan?

The difference was extermination of a ethnic/religious group and forcing a side to end the war by inflicting casualties to undermine support for the war. The Holocaust was started before World War II and was separate from the actual war. The firebombing only happened because there was a war going on at the time.

The real difference with the firebombing of Japan and Dresden was the targets hit were primarily civilians that provided labor for the war effort and not direct military targets.

[SFGiants09]

Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug

If I lived in the Geneforge universe, I'd definitely throw my lot in with the Rebels. Why?

1. The Shapers are far too autocratic for my tastes. For goodness sakes, you can't even harbour certain opinions without being targeted for death.

2. The Shapers can't govern effectively. This is demonstrated by their inability to meet a threat to their Empire. Some people have pointed out 'But they are under a lot of pressure." Well yeah, that's one of the means by which you judge the value of a government, by observing how well it responds to internal and external threats.

3. Many classes of independent creations are strong and intelligent enough to fight for their freedom, so hey, let them. These sapient beings are made to be slaves and then targeted for extermination when they refuse to allow their will to be crushed. Is it any surprise that they fight back?

While I understand your objection to Shaper rule, particularly the totalitarian aspects of it, ultimately this becomes an argument of the lesser of two evils.

I'll be the first to admit the Shapers have their faults; they're profoundly arrogant, self-serving, power-hungry, and they lack even the simplest compassion for the life they create. But the world they live in is simply not an environment in which anything but absolute totalitarianism is advisable, or even possible.

Can you honestly say that a harsh dictatorship under ghaldring would be an improvement over the peaceful, cultured world the Shapers have created? The shapers are no saints, but the drakons are far worse. They are insane, cruel monstrosities, incapable of rational thought. They are hell-bent on destoying the world as it is known. The shapers are arrogant? The drakons are more-so. The shapers are greedy and power-hungry? The drakons are more-so. The Shapers are cruel, heartless, and unfeeling? The drakons are once again, even more-so. Despite what they claim their righteous intentions are, they dont intend to improve the world, free the creations, or allow the masses to shape. They plan to greedily take the power the shapers once had, and hoard it, like the shapers before them. Hell, they would probably even consider destoying humanity, and replacing it with a drakon-race...they seem to be intensely biggoted as well.

If the drakons were to usurp the Shaper authority, they would replace it with a government equally stifling, or perhaps something far worse. So while the supposed rebel "cause" is just, their ulterior motives are not. I'll take the imperfect shaper rule over armageddon any day.

[Spddin Ignis]

Originally Posted By: Will-o'-the-Mob

Shaping isn't nukes. It's much more akin to guns, and in the USA we do gleefully allow everyone to be armed. It doesn't work well according to many, but it also hasn't resulted in mass deaths or mass rebellion.

Personally i think that non-Shaper Magic is akin to guns. This magic, though still controlled, is more common throughout terrestia. Throughout the game you see several citizens with magical power that they could use to defend themselves with. Shaper magic gives someone the ability to make a devistating virus that can destroy an entire continent. So i would consider it closer to a nuke then a gun.

[Alorael at Large]

No. Shaper magic, research facilities, and ingenuity let someone invent a virus that can wreak mass destruction. Most shapers can't do that. Most individual shapers can't do much more than make some standard creations.

 

—Alorael, who isn't even sure that an unlimited or large number of standard creations is possible without full shaping facilities and essence pools. Limiting the equipment but not the knowledge makes sense.

[Artemis~]

i'm neutral.

 

you see, the shapers think that the only way to make peace is to destroy everyting that you dont like.they are cruel, and are dumb for thinking themselves as more than human. you really dont have to terrorize humans and treat serviles like dirt to make them obey. that leads to REBELLION.

 

 

the rebels are greedy,spineless,jelous creatures. the drakons just want to be the new, meaner shapers. the humans are either jelous or pissed because the shapers did what needed to be done.the rebels could have just gone with the flow and everything would be alright. the drayks just like shiny things, enough said.

 

but if i really must choose, i would choose the shapers, because they're sensible at best. and the shaper robes are cool.

 

but i'm still neutral.

[Lord Chaos]

thats exactly how i feel like ur reading my mind

[Drakon Sssharxx]

Lord Chaos, there was no need to revive a month old thread just to say that. Please be sensible posting on the forums, posting smething like your post on active threads (probably about a week scince the last post) is fine, but please don't revive a month old thread unless you have a fact that hasn't been stated and contibutes to the thread.

 

Sharx

[Lord Iraelithe]

Well, since it's been partially revived,I'm for rebels. The loyalists have control issues...of course, drakons scare me but, eh... oh well

[Ganduv]

Yeah I usually find myself going loyalist (mainly in gf5 since many of the beginning areas have shapers in it) I just wish Jeff made it to where you could pass a very difficult mission and everyone would consider you a shaper. The Trakovites are really the only ones who actually treat you with kindness.

[The Mystic]

I prefer to ride the fence and play one side against the other. It usually pays better.

Originally Posted By: Lord Iraelithe

The loyalists have control issues...of course, drakons scare me but, eh... oh well

Actually, both the drakons and the loyalists have control issues.

[Hypnotic]

Oldish topic so I apoligise for reviving it but there arn't too many active threads so I thought what the heck.

 

I'm Pro-Shaper

 

Lots of the debate here are going on about the sterotypes for each faction. Rebels are bad because of Drakons and Shapers are bad because of their arrognace and lazyness. Well hang on a second.

 

Not all rebels are power hoarding Drakons. Greta just wants a world with better leaders and a true peacful environment. Lots of the outsiders just want to be treated fairly or have a bit of power.

 

Not all shapers are lazy or arrogant. Alwan is active and smart and will do anything. Some shapers also see the need to break certain traditions. Teaching outsiders shaper knowledge or even treating them equally. Astoria wants to reform the shapers to make the better. All they need is for the war to end.

 

I perfer the shapers over the rebels because:

 

They control their creations and do not create rouges. Unbound are they opposite end of this and made from nessesity but still did they really need to be made.

 

Shapers are not allowed to be overly cruel to creations. Tygen is an exception. Rebels dont really treat their creations alot better.

 

Shapers do not hand out their weponry to everyone. The debate about guns being nukes and dictators getting things done is a different angle. If you give guns to everyone but control the distibution of the bullets then the goverment takes control. Another way is to simply take the guns away from everyone but the guards. The shapers control shaping so there is no need to control the essence. Everyone with power dosn't abuse it and if they do the goverment can easily take control. Look at the ultimate result of G2. The shapers reclaim the mountains.

 

Shapers have made the world peaceful and prosperous. In G1 the canisters allowed shaping of 9 creations so were placed there for about 400 or so years. In G2 only 3 new creations are avalible. So in that 400 years they made fast growing shaper trees, ornks, serviles (Some were intelegnet scribes) and other econmy friendly things. Only when the war broke out did they need to create new war creations.

 

Shapers should allow intellegent serviles but they were a whole lot smarter before the rebbelion due to the shapers trust.

 

Shapers have their faults but the system worked and their resources were plentiful. Their robes do look cool too.

[Finch]

Shouldn't Litalia be registered as a hypocrite though? She was shaper for a short time (although from what I've gathered pro rebel), rebel and then trakovite. Soo I just don't like her lol. I'd side with the trakovites, considering how mad everyone goes near the end. The drakons turning out just pretty much control hungry arrogant beings kindred to their former shaper masters. Trakovites are the only sane ones trying to bring an end to the war machine that started and revolved around the geneforge universe Shaping

[Mea Tulpa]

Changing your mind in response to new information or experiences is not the same thing as hypocrisy, not at all.

[Dantius]

It kind of is when you suddenly change sides to a group that you've been avidly persecuting for a while. The only analogy I can think of would be if Hitler converted to Judaism in 1945.

[Hypnotic]

Not really. Litalia changed her mind after the said group changed or she saw a new side of things.

 

Litalia is a shaper but they dn't tach you rebelious things so she is a shaper.

 

Only when she truly understands the rebels does she become one. When the rebels become desperate and release unbound, their morals have changed so Litalia leaves.

 

Trakovites in her mind a better so she is with them. She would be a Hypocrite if she decided she hated Shapers while she was one but she didn't.

[Finch]

She changed her views more than any other character though I think?

[A less presumptuous name.]

Definitely. It may seem a bit hypocritical or lacking in will, but it really is understandable, to a degree. She is born and raised under a single set of principles and beliefs. When she is exposed to a new one, she sees it a a better system. She converts. Sadly (for her), the system she once believed in changes, and she is again left with nothing. But wait, here comes yet another system. Litalia has grown and learned, and the rebels have changed. It's like a religious conversion, only more turbulent. There are 3 to 5 sides of this war, and they are all changing, so it can be hard for some individuals to keep up.

[Mea Tulpa]

Litalia followed a similar ideological path to the one Khyryk followed, except that her extrema were much more extreme.

[Spddin Ignis]

Khyryk didn't kill hundreds of innocent people mind you, litalia's journey ended in the end of other people journeys, which makes her quite different from khyryk. Litalia continued to turn on society and her masters, until she was hated by everyone.

 

She was with the shapers, she decided to go to the rebels for what reason? fun? Because she accomplished her cause with the rebels only to see the destruction that she has cost, one which the shapers never would have brought about. So instead, she rebels against the art that made her who she is, was, a shaper. Being a trakovite made it soo everyone wanted her dead, and thats how things worked for her...

[Acky]

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she decided to go to the rebels for what reason? fun?

Upon destroying the servile village, Litalia then became disillusioned from the Shapers because of their cruelty towards creations. It was then that she met Ghaldring, and saw her chance to amend for her past mistakes.

[Spddin Ignis]

Amend her past mistakes?? Or make more...

[Acky]

Regardless as to what your opinion is on what she actually did, or if she ever made an mistakes in the first place, she left the Shapers in an attempt to make up for slaughtering a servile village.

[Spddin Ignis]

I know. But do you think what she did was rational?

[Acky]

That's entirely up to opinion, as you can probably figure out on your own how I feel about it.

[Spddin Ignis]

Yeah. Lets just finish this now... we always get into arguments on these types of threads.

[Acky]

Okay, you start. I'm game for a debate.

[Spddin Ignis]

Litalia thinks that she can amend killing serviles by killing hundreds of innocent humans. Then after that, to amend her killing of them, she decides to go trak...

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Spddin

Khyryk didn't kill hundreds of innocent people mind you,

Not personally, but he is more than happy to advise the G4 PC to keep the war in a bloody stalemate.

Well, a bloody stalemate as opposed to a bloody victory by the Shapers or a bloody continuation of the war by the Rebels. The Geneforge world doesn't really understand peaceful resolutions to problems.

Dikiyoba.

[Alorael at Large]

Astoria seems to understand it, but she also knows that she can't make a peace-omlette without breaking some Shaper and rebel eggs.

 

—Alorael, who wants a peace omlette. It sounds soothingly delicious!

[Serene Tempest]

Out of the three main camps you have to choose from in the game, if I were living in the Geneforge world and happened to be someone of consequence I’d probably throw my lot in with the Trakovites. I don’t fully buy that shaping is inheriently evil or always does more good than harm, but I do think that when viewed as a whole (ie taking both their good and ugly sides into account) both the Shapers and the Rebels have fundamental flaws that are deal-breakers for me. The flaws of the Trakovites I could live with, or at least I could accept as the least of three evils.

 

I’ll start with the Shapers. Centuries of peace, prosperity, and stability are nothing to scoff at. But not everyone benefited from the peace and prosperity. Serviles were treated little better than beasts of burden, and Drayks considerably worse. Even outsiders had to be lucky enough to live under the administration of one of the more benevolent shapers. While I might concede that Sage Taygen is an anomaly that never would have arisen outside of a gruesome decade-long rebellion (though the Drayks might disagree with that…), I don’t think that Rawal is. I think there are probably quite a few Rawals in the ranks of the shapers, and that they are tolerated simply because they are Shapers and at the end of the day that gives them the right to treat outsiders as they will within the bounds of Shaper law. So while the Shapers definitely get points for being the voice of reason, I could not in good conscious stand behind them when they enslave one entire class of clearly sentient beings, actively try to exterminate another, and tolerate disregard for the wellbeing of those outside their ranks.

 

The rebels do much better in this regard. If there were no Trakovites, I would probably be a very reluctant rebel. I would certainly feel much better escorting Serviles down the Shadow Road than bludgeoning them into submission and returning them to their masters. But the Rebels embrace some really reckless and scary policies. If nothing else, I can’t see much good coming of canisters and geneforges in the long run. I don’t think it takes a genius to realize that instant power at the price of one’s sanity and humanity is a very, very bad thing. Perhaps dramatic steps needed to be taken in order for them to have a chance in hell of overthrowing the shapers, but if they ride that horse to power I doubt they’ll be able to get rid of it after the dust clears. Assuming they even want to by then.

 

That leaves the Trakovites. What are their flaws? First and foremost are the means they use to achieve their ends. While I should admit that I’m only in the process of playing G5 as a Trakovite right now, I’ve gotten the general impression that Litalia has you do some rather gruesome things in the service of her faction. But the fact of the matter is that gruesome things are going on all over Terriestria at that time already, and neither side’s path to victory is clear of highly questionable actions. The bigger flaw of the Trakovites, in the long run, is that they are essentially luddites. Shaping is the cornerstone of Terrestia’s economy, culture, and way of life. Taking that out would be like a worldwide ban on computers. It would mean a much more primitive lifestyle for everyone. It would mean more hardship in the world and less prosperity. This is certiantly not an ideal situation. But in my estimation, it hands-down beats the other two.

 

Of course, the de facto alliance between Astoria and Greta in G5 largely combines the better aspects of both the Shapers and the Rebels. So that is still my choice as a faction. But since the topic of this discussion was Loyalist vs. Rebel vs. Trakovite, that's what I talked about.