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Originally Posted By: The Almighty Doer of Stuff
I'm slightly confused. Will we eventually be including every scenario with the package, or just the three standard plus Bandit Busywork in the Custom Scenarios like it is with Win32 CBoE Beta 2? We're not really under any obligation to include it at all, even if it is the only post-release Jeff Vogel scenario. I'd much rather see scenarios Milu's "New Market City", and maybe Jewels's "Sound Showcase" included with the package, if we're not including every scenario we have.

I don't think we'll include any scenario besides the three standards (plus Busywork because it was Jeff's, but we can remove it safely) in the game package ... (and last time i checked, the "all scenarios" package was more than 40 Mo large (30 if better compression) ...).
That's, of course, open to debate ...

Chokboyz
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I was intending to include Bandit Busywork along with the other three, because it's Jeff's, so it won't appear in Custom Scenarios once we're using the new dialog engine.

 

For other scenarios, I don't think we should include them in the game package, but we could have links to download them collected in the same place as the game package. However, this is up for debate. I wouldn't mind including a few more scenarios if there's demand for it.

 

Originally Posted By: The Almighty Doer of Stuff

Quote:
A small village is having problems with a group

of mysterious bandits. You have been called in

to exterminate them, but first you must find

out where - and who - they are.

 

Tell me what you think. Feedback on the icon is welcome too.

 

EDIT: And while that dialog is being edited, perhaps the title of A Small Rebellion could be fixed? It still says "A Mild Rebellion".

Uh... sure, perhaps I'll port that one soon just so that I don't forget this (even though it won't be used immediately).

 

Originally Posted By: The Almighty Doer of Stuff
Now that I've been attempting to play through Bandit Busywork, I'm realizing just how sloppily it was put together. Spelling mistakes, they're/their/there and similar mistakes, missing quotes, buggy node chains. Plus it's only four towns long. the scenario really does feel like busywork, complete with entirely unlikeable people giving you the work to do. Do we really need to include this with the program? I'm worrying it will give people a bad impression of BoE, especially since it's a beginner-level scenario that could possibly be the first one they play.
I'd like to do bugfixes in Jeff's scenarios as well as in the game itself, so we could improve Bandit Busywork if you think it's necessary. (I haven't played it myself, so I'll take your word on that for now.) I don't think "only four towns" is a problem though.

 

Originally Posted By: The Almighty Doer of Stuff
At least that larger scenario icon might see use some day once the capability is implemented, maybe...
It will be used, don't worry.

 

Originally Posted By: The Almighty Doer of Stuff
EDIT: What I suggest we could do instead of putting Bandit Busywork in the Start Scenario dialog, is implementing the capability to use larger icons in the Custom Scenario dialog, in addition to making the teaser text area larger a la Start Scenario, then we could combine Start Scenario and Custom Scenario into one button called Start Scenario and free up another Main Menu button for whatever we want.
Yes, that's an option... and BoA-style, force Jeff's four to appear on the first page. I hadn't planned to do this, though I was going to make it possible to use a Large Scenario size icon in a regular dialog.

 

The only problem is, all the existing scenario icons are one-quarter the size of the large ones, so we would need to make larger versions of each and every one of the scenario icons (scale up and tweak, most likely). Does anyone want to volunteer to do that?

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Hypothetically, you could allow for both sizes, just to make it easier until someone actually does make all the icons bigger.

 

I'm not volunteering. I have little graphic editing skill, and only managed to make that one look decent because I was manipulating public-domain photographs I found on Wikimedia Commons.

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Yes, it would certainly be possible to support both sizes, though it could look a little odd.

 

I just thought it may be good to use the large version in the Pick Scenario dialog and perhaps the Intro dialog, and then use the small version as the default in Message dialogs.

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Sorry, while the BoA scenario icons are very nice, there's no obvious way to draw a correspondence to the BoE scenario icons. If we're going to change the icon displayed for all scenarios, we should at least make sure that said icons look like the originals (more or less).

 

(Admittedly, a few of those icons would be valid substitutions for a few of the original BoE icons... but that still leaves many others that need to be enlarged if we're going to all larger graphics.)

 

Also, will someone please verify that Windows BoA whether uses brighter graphics? Or else upload (a few of) the Windows graphics or Mac graphics so that someone else can check?

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Originally Posted By: Celtic Minstrel
Are there any graphics on the list in the first post that were completed but not struck off? I think I've got them all, but I'm not sure...


What did you decide about the mushrooms? Did they look good enough, or do you want me to change them?

I'll try to get the other-direction waterfalls done by tomorrow morning.

Did we ever get a ruling on the brightnesses from Avernum? I've been working at those on and off, but I'm reluctant to put in a lot of effort unless I'm sure they'll be usable. Here is what I've done so far. If the brightness looks okay for those, let me know and I'll keep going with the windows BoA sheets I have. If you want me to use a different source, let me know what it is and where to get it.

EDIT: I just noticed your other post, here is one of the windows sheets I've been using, so you can compare. Link

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Originally Posted By: Mistb0rn
What did you decide about the mushrooms? Did they look good enough, or do you want me to change them?
I think I decided they were good enough.

Originally Posted By: Mistb0rn
Here is what I've done so far.
Those look good. However, I'm afraid I have to say that the torches simply are probably not a good idea. I don't think there is any way to prevent the light from appearing on both sides of the wall with such a terrain. Wall-mounted torches in Exile are, unlike any other wall-mounted thing in Exil, handled just like all wall-mounted things in Avernum: a separate terrain that you place next to the wall. The default terrain set only provides them on stone floor, but that's fixable, of course.

Originally Posted By: Mistb0rn
EDIT: I just noticed your other post, here is one of the windows sheets I've been using, so you can compare. Link
Careful scrutiny reveals that the Windows one is slightly brighter. However, it's not nearly as noticeable as it is for the BoE graphics, and it's not like there's existing matching graphics that we need to conform to (as is the case with, for example, stuff on grass or cave floor). So I think it's fine to use the Windows graphics for BoA stuff.
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Alrighty then. I will stop doing wall torches and continue using the windows sheets.

 

The last used line on my sheet has a few of the floors you wanted from Avernum. What objects do you want on them, if any? (There really should be a better way to handle objects, but I'm sure that would be difficult to implement.) Will you want the floorsets to match Exile objects, or use the Avernum objects, or some of both?

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With regards to the floor graphics, a few things...

 

First, you've tried tiling them to make sure they fit together seamlessly on all sides? (Actually, that applies to the walls too, though it doesn't look like there's a problem there.)

 

Second, I like the first, second, and fifth floor you've done. The other two are the white cave floor, right? I would tend to think that there's not much point in having a third type of cave floor. On the other hand, I suppose we could just re-purpose it as an indoor floor.

 

Third, the types of objects. I think the best is to use a mixture, depending on what fits best. All the objects on a particular floor should go together. You can use Exile objects or Avernum objects – it really doesn't matter. You can also create your own objects if you like.

 

 

And finally... why are there two pairs of gates for the first wall?

 

 

Originally Posted By: Mistb0rn
(There really should be a better way to handle objects, but I'm sure that would be difficult to implement.)
I think that would be too major an engine change to be worthwhile.
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Floors all tile properly, yes. That's the hardest and most important part. ;-)

 

You didn't specify which floors to use from the pages you listed, so I've just been doing all of them. I would be happy to not bother with the cave-looking floor if you so desire.

 

My instinct would be to use mainly Exile objects, with some modified Avernum ones thrown in.

 

The two pairs of gates are because on the top one it is hard to tell what it is. I made it brighter on the second line so you can see the bars going across better. Let me know which one you prefer and I'll get rid of the other.

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Let's skip the cave floor then. smile (I did say "indoor floors". At least I thought I did.)

 

I think I like the brighter gate better.

 

 

There are a few Avernum objects that work quite well in Exile unmodified (for example, the animated glowing rune or the glowing crystal). (I'm not saying you should use those ones – I'm just pointing it out.)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Slightly unrelated question here - How is the new edited version of BoE going to handle all the new graphics?

I haven't been reading all the hundreds of posts on the actual programming, but I'm curious. In particular, is there any way to be able to script your own auto-arranging (like the mountains and cave walls) and remove the defaults? Because without something like that, there would be nowhere near enough graphics slots to make full use of all the new graphics (I'm thinking especially of using both blue and grey cave, with transitions). Or will there be more slots for graphics (so we could keep the default behavior for the original graphics, and still have room to use the new ones)? Or do you have some other way to work around this?

 

Thanks!

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These graphics will be added to the default set, meaning that they have numbers less than 400 (or, if we get too many, at least less than 1000).

 

You'll be able to create up to 65535 terrain types, so I decided not to remove the arbitrary restrictions on editing the first 90, because they're used by the game itself to generate combat arenas and with so many slots there's no real need to edit them.

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Apparently the format for the Exile series allowed Jeff to have a set of global terrains, which could be used from any town or outdoor section, and a group of local terrains which would be different in every town (ie customized on a per-town basis, possibly also per outdoor section, I'm not sure).

 

At least, that's what Ishad Nha's analysis apparently turned up.

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I picked up the Blazing Blade mosaics...how much stuff do you want on them? Full sets for each one?

 

Once I get enough objects converted from Avernum (or copied from Exile), it will be very easy to just paste them on any floor, so it wouldn't be any trouble to make full sets. Let me know what you'd like.

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Well, you'd still probably need to add shadows to some of them though...

 

Anyway, for the Blazing Blade mosaics I think it'd be sufficient to do a minimal set, much like the marble floor set. So, good and evil altars, a brazier (or other freestanding light source), perhaps a throne, and a pillar. Especially since there are so many variations of the floor tiling.

 

You probably don't need to put each object on every one of the floors either. There's sixteen separate floors for each pattern, so I think that'd be a bit much (96 terrains!). Perhaps just put the objects on the two rightmost mosaic floors in both white and black?

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The lovely thing is, I've got a file type for my objects (.psp) that allows for partial transparency, so I have all the shadows as part of the object. It really will be just pasting them on, once I have all the objects made.

 

Do you want for the mosaics an Avernum theme, or a more exile-marble theme?

 

You mentioned in an earlier post that you wanted statues from Avernum... How do you want these done? Would you want them on each Exile and Avernum floor, or only certain ones?

 

Also, do you think the red stool will be enough for seating, or should I add chairs in all directions as well?

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Originally Posted By: Mistb0rn
The lovely thing is, I've got a file type for my objects (.psp) that allows for partial transparency, so I have all the shadows as part of the object. It really will be just pasting them on, once I have all the objects made.
Ah, good.

Originally Posted By: Mistb0rn
Do you want for the mosaics an Avernum theme, or a more exile-marble theme?
Something that looks ornate would be nice. If the Avernum has an ornate pillar, go for it. The Avernum altars would be fine too.

Originally Posted By: Mistb0rn
You mentioned in an earlier post that you wanted statues from Avernum... How do you want these done? Would you want them on each Exile and Avernum floor, or only certain ones?
I think I'd like them either on cave floor (both colours) or on stone floor, depending on whether it makes more sense for them to be indoors or outdoors. (Most probably make more sense indoors, I'd guess.)

Originally Posted By: Mistb0rn
Also, do you think the red stool will be enough for seating, or should I add chairs in all directions as well?
The stool could be sufficient, I think. But if you want to add all four chairs, go ahead.
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Alright, what in the world are these? Would either of them work as a light source for the mosaics? (For the gray one, I also have the lit version.) The other thing I've been considering is one of those standing torches. Or, if you like, I could use the fancy brazier from Exile. What would you prefer?

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I proudly present: The First Sheet (of Avernum stuff.)

 

I actually had a lot of fun doing these. Let me know what you think of it so far, and whether I need to change anything before starting on sheet 2.

 

I did end up adding both the Exile brazier and the standing torches to the mosaics, because I couldn't get the torches to look fancy enough.

 

I assumed you wanted the stone circle for both above- and below-ground, did you also want it on hills? I could easily add it if that is the case.

 

 

(As I mentioned before, I do have all the objects I put on any floors saved separately, so if there is anything you want changed, it would be VERY easy to do. And if you decide you want any additional things for any floor, again, very easy.)

 

 

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Yes, stone circle on hills would be good. Actually, I think I was expecting it only above ground, but having it below ground is not a bad idea.

 

The Empire and Avernum symbols on the four original walls might be nice. (That's the three BoE walls, plus the Exile 3 stone wall.)

 

Just before the Avernum symbol, is that supposed to be a trapdoor that is independent of any floor type? Because, that's actually a very good idea.

 

(Note that the in-game sheets are actually only 5 tiles high, for some reason. So this would be split into 3 sheets. I'd probably have to redistribute many of the graphics anyway, though, so it's perfectly fine to continue making your sheets this size.)

 

Out of curiosity, how much work did it take to adapt some of these graphics? Did you just scale and skew and stuff, or did you actually redraw any of them?

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Stone circle, no problem. Empire and Avernum symbols on old walls, no problem. I'll include those all on the next sheet.

 

Yes, that is an independent trapdoor. I've been trying to think of a way to make the ladder for underneath independent as well...though I may end up needing to just stick it on the floors.

 

Let me see...the wallsets, gray brazier, brown cabinet, bookshelves, and outdoor stuff I skewed and resized. All the other Avernum stuff I redrew.

 

In regards to sheet 767 (you mentioned in the original list that it looked 'generally useful'), where do you want the various objects? Indoor, outdoor, specific floors? I can't really tell where most of them are supposed to go.

 

Oh, one more thing. For the purple carpet (sheets 707 & 709 I believe) there are four patterns. How extensive do you want the floorsets to be for those? Full on the blank one and minimal on the others? More of a fancy theme?

 

Thanks!

 

(I am going to be away again this coming week, so I probably won't get as much done until the week after.)

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I don't think we need all four purple carpets. They're almost the same anyway; I think I like the first one on sheet 707 or the second one on sheet 709 the best. I'll think about the theme for it...

 

As for sheet 767, most of those objects would be useful. The first I believe is supposed to be a place to tie up the giant lizards, so it would go on cave floor. The second is (obviously) a lamp-post; that one would go on cave floor, while the one on sheet 795 would go on grass. The third on sheet 767 is a watch tower, which would go on grass. I dunno, maybe it could go on cave floor too, but I'm not sure it would fit. Though, that one's probably difficult to translate, so feel free to skip it.

 

The next two are flower beds; I don't see any real need to translate them. The next two together comprise a cart; while this would be useful, it might also be hard to figure out, because technically a lizard should be pulling the cart, but as it is it won't "meld" with the existing lizard graphic. Still, even if it can't go along with the lizard graphic, it could still be made to go along with the horse graphic, or the surface cow graphic, or whatever. It would have to still be in two parts, I think, because the cart proper would be an impassable container, while the... arms... or whatever they're called... would be passable.

 

The runed platform in the final slot might be interesting, but isn't terribly important. That leaves the crystal, which would be better taken from sheet 761 and would go on Vahnatai floor.

 

Other nice graphics are the control panel (sheet 763) and the wheel (sheet 758). Both would go on stone floor and Vahnatai floor, I think.

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Let's leave them for now and see how many graphics we've ended up with.

 

 

I guess it's just coincidence that I didn't ask you, but I notice that you haven't done any animated graphics; it would be nice to have an anti-lava, like the Avernum one on sheet 752. Something like the rapids on 751 would be useful too, in both types of water even.

 

Am I asking too much here?

 

An easier task in animated terrains would be putting a portal on grass and walkway.

 

(Note that animated terrains go on a different type of sheet, which is only 5 tiles high and any number of tiles wide, with all 4 tiles of a given animation being kept together. You don't have to follow that, since I can easily move things around... but if you make animated terrains it would be good if you'd at least keep them in one row.)

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Asking too much? Never. I absolutely LOVE editing graphics, and I'm especially glad to do it in the assistance of something as incredible as BoE.

 

Anti-lava, finished. I did the actual Avernum lava this morning, and the anti lava was just a negative image of that. The regular exile lava looks very odd negative, so unless you have a particular desire for it to match Exile, I'd go with the Avernum version for antilava.

I already had a single tile of the rapids for Exile above-ground water, I'll work on turning it into an animation and an underground version.

 

Portal, as you said, is easy. I'm assuming you want the standard Exile portal, correct?

 

 

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Correct, standard Exile portal. I think I probably did that myself somewhere, but it probably omitted a shadow, which is less than ideal.

 

Rapids... do you have one directions, or two, or four? I imagine that one would be almost trivial to rotate... and if we have waterfalls in four directions it makes sense to also have rapids in four directions (since rapids are basically tame versions of waterfalls).

 

Originally Posted By: Mistb0rn
I did the actual Avernum lava this morning, and the anti lava was just a negative image of that. The regular exile lava looks very odd negative, so unless you have a particular desire for it to match Exile, I'd go with the Avernum version for antilava.
Yes, I've noticed this as well; the Exile lava is too dark to have a nice negative image. If you want we could take both the Avernum lava and the "anti-lava".
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Originally Posted By: Celtic Minstrel
It's like lava, but it's blue, and does cold damage. There's a small patch of it in the bottom left corner of Upper Avernum if I recall correctly. I actually usually call it "slush", but I said "anti-lava" here in order to be absolutely clear.


Makes sense, thanks for the info. Are there (Or could you make) other versions that do magic or dark damage?
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Originally Posted By: Cryolemon
Makes sense, thanks for the info. Are there (Or could you make) other versions that do magic or dark damage?


You mean, just different colored versions? Like purple and black? I could do that easily, although it's up to CM whether he wants to include them.

Oh, CM, one more question. Will the new engine allow for setting the trim type on individual terrains? If we're adding new lava etc. it seems like there ought to be something like that. Also, will there be an option for including a new terrain in compatibility for a terrain set that automatically adjusts? e.g. compatibility between surface water and the new rapids.
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Originally Posted By: Mistb0rn

You mean, just different colored versions? Like purple and black? I could do that easily, although it's up to CM whether he wants to include them.


Yeah, as long as you could make them do the right type of damage in the editor as needed.
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