Rebellion [SPOILERS][G5]

[Spddin Ignis]

who do you think is respnsible for the rebellion. Personaly i think that it would be the shapers on sucia island who abandoned the work there. Or brazhal.

[Acky]

The Shapers are obviously responsible for the rebellion. It was their mistreatment and actions that caused the Drakons too be made, and for the uprising of the human rebels.

 

The Last Archon

[Spddin Ignis]

pesonaly i dont think it was necesarily the miss treatment of the creations. One definate is barring drayks. Im sure the shapers could have designed a variant of drayk that was less intelegent. One thing i dont like about the shapers is they abandoned the most powerful work in the world on sucia island. They would have been megapowerful if they kept the info on genes. there would be alot new creations also.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Ooooh, the blame game.

Well, the rebels themselves ultimately chose to rebel, but the Shapers definitely didn't make it a hard choice. Then again, the drayks kind of started it, but the Shapers drove the drayks to it. The researchers at Sucia kind of left things in a mess, but the proto-Shapers started the whole thing. You know, I blame the ancestors to humanity for giving rise to humanity. But then, natural selection caused that. I blame life!

 

My point, it doesn't matter who started it, but who ends it. History is told by the winners. Also, the way each side deals with the rebellion is important, but a whole separate topic for debate. In short, I don't think that any one person or group can be blamed entirely.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Every sapient being is responsible for its own action, so you could argue that the Rebels are primarily responsible for the Rebellion, and I'd agree. But then you'd need to ask yourself: Is rebellion a justifiable and reasonable response to Shaper oppression? If you were in the shoes of a servile or drayk in Shaper lands, would you respond with rebellion? I sure as hell would.

 

It always amazes me that some individuals can wholeheartedly support the Shaper regime when they engage in activities which would have governments placed on trial for war crimes in real life, and condemn the response of oppressed creations when slavery is universally regarded as an abomination at present.

[Øther]

The rebels can be blamed for starting the war, and even for all of the devastation, since one can say that the shapers wouldn't have destroyed anything if there were no rebels, but the shapers, due just to their nature, made some kind of war inevitable at any time. Any country that has a shaper-like ruling system will undoubtedly have some kind of civil war.

[Alorael at Large]

Really? Monarchy in various forms worked for millenia in the real world. Not always peacefully, granted, but it worked. The Shapers are not, largely, terrible oppressors. Some individuals are haughty and overbearing, but the actual requirements of the Shapers in peacetime seems simple: they (presumably) collect taxes and tributes, they keep the peace, and they deal with rogue creations and rogue shapers. The group is (somewhat) meritocratic. It serves a real purpose. As governments go, the Shapers aren't bad.

 

Their treatment of serviles and other creations is, as Banana Slug points out, criminal, but their stated intentions towards serviles are better and it's not clear to me that uprising is the most reasonable way to go about enacting change.

 

—Alorael, who ironically finds it easy to blame the rebels up until the moment the rebellion started. The Shapers' handling of their war is so poorly thought out and needlessly autocratic that they come to deserve everything they get.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Bureau of Police

The Shapers are not, largely, terrible oppressors.

If you aren't a creation and fly under the radar, Shaper rule isn't that bad. If you're a servile, Barred Creation, Outsider who wants to Shape or have any semblance of autonomy (witness the natives who are too frightened to talk about their indigenous heritage), or Trakovite, then the Shapers could be seen as terrible oppressors.

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Some individuals are haughty and overbearing,

Um, what? Let's look at the four members of the Shaper Council who we have extensive contact with in the game:

- One is an opportunist who implants a living tool in your heart and sends you out to undermine his fellow councillors for no other reason than obtaining power and influence.

- One wants peace at any cost. Astoria seems to be a relatively fair ruler, but clearly her beliefs aren't representative of the Shaper sect, given that she is the target of assassinations by her own kind.

- Alwan wants to wipe out all Barred creations for the mere crime of existing. And he's considered a *moderate* by some. Yeah, right. Astoria is more along the lines of a moderate Shaper IMHO.

- Taygen wants to destroy all creations and start again.

Three out of four of the Council members we meet are what would be considered tyrants in any sane society.

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but the actual requirements of the Shapers in peacetime seems simple: they (presumably) collect taxes and tributes, they keep the peace, and they deal with rogue creations and rogue shapers.

Where rogue creations = any creation which exhibits independent thought, and rogue shaper = Any outsider/Shaper who doesn't kowtow to an autocratic regime with control issues.

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The group is (somewhat) meritocratic. It serves a real purpose. As governments go, the Shapers aren't bad.

And you could argue that Nazi rule wasn't bad... for non-Jewish Germans. And yes, I'd argue that the analogy is highly relevant, given that certain segments of Shaper society (ie. Drayks) were targeted for genocide.

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Their treatment of serviles and other creations is, as Banana Slug points out, criminal, but their stated intentions towards serviles are better

"They are our children"? Surely you didn't buy into that claptrap? Who sends their children to do physically dangerous work (eg. working in the minds) and tortures/kills them when they exhibit independent thought? The "They are our children" excuse is nothing more than an attempt by some Shapers to rationalise what is clearly an inexcusible crime, no different than when the slavers said "Well, where will our slaves go if we free them?!"

It's also blatantly obvious that the serviles are not *children*. They are more than capable of existing independently.

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and it's not clear to me that uprising is the most reasonable way to go about enacting change.

What alternative would you propose? All evidence suggests that reform is only possible when the Shapers are coerced.

[Barzhal]

And you could argue that Nazi rule wasn't bad... for non-Jewish Germans. And yes, I'd argue that the analogy is highly relevant, given that certain segments of Shaper society (ie. Drayks) were targeted for genocide.

 

Highly relevant? Are you comparing Jews to Drakes and saying they are similar? I find your analogy absurd.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Why do Jews and Drayks need to be similar? I'm sure you could find many arbitrary differences between the two given that Geneforge is a fantasy game, but so what? Both are sapient, and both were targeted for simply existing.

[Barzhal]

Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug

Why do Jews and Drayks need to be similar? I'm sure you could find many arbitrary differences between the two given that Geneforge is a fantasy game, but so what? Both are sapient, and both were targeted for simply existing.

It was your analogy.

Jews were targeted due to (interpretations of) Nazi propaganda.

Drayks were targeted for possessing undesirable qualities that were unintentionally shaped into them.

I still don't see the connection. Usually that's what analogies attempt to do, make a connection or establish similarities.

[Alorael at Large]

Judging the Shapers after at least a decade of vicious warfare isn't fair. I've already agreed that by G5 rebellion is the only sensible response. Before that, however, I get the sense that they weren't all crazed reactionaries terrified of their own creations.

 

The two beginning mistakes, mistreatment of serviles and genocide of drayks, didn't require armed response. They required shapers and ordinary non-shapers willing to stand up and point out errors. Yes, there would be deaths over it. There would have been fewer than in the rebellion, I think. (No, this can't be proven either way; we barely see any pre-war, non-Sucia-influenced Shapers.)

 

The Jews and the drayks are both elements of a population chosen for annihilation due to something beyond their control. That's really all the analogy you'll get, but isn't it enough? On the other hand, could we leave Godwin's Law and all its baggage out?

 

—Alorael, who just doesn't see extermination of drayks are the core of Shaper society. It was a very bad decision, but the Shapers could reasonably have decided differently. Barring could have meant a moratorium on the shaping of drayks and coming to terms with the individual drayks who had, after all, been living with the Shapers just fine until then.

[Mea Tulpa]

Apologies to Godwin, but here's my usual reminder that Jews were not the only ones killed in the Holocaust (though obviously the ones killed in the greatest numbers; I'm not arguing with them being mentioned foremost).

[nikki.]

Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug

It's also blatantly obvious that the serviles are not *children*. They are more than capable of existing independently.

Actually, no. There is plenty of evidence which shows that regular serviles, not the ones in the rebellion, when left, cannot function well enough to survive. In one of the games (G2, Drypeak, I think), the Keeper says that she washes, dresses and even feeds the serviles. Of course, the other side of that argument is "Sucia".

Besides, most serviles don't even want to act independently. They want to work. They want to do whatever a Shaper says. It isn't slavery if they want it, is it?

[/deliberate hijack]

[Chessrook44]

The question comes whether they want it because they actually want it, or they want it because they were raised/brainwashed into it.

[The Ratt]

You know, before the rebellion smart serviles were allowed to live, and lead normal lives. It was only after the rebellion paranoia that people really tried to dumb down the serviles to the extreme levels that we see during the war.

[Acky]

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It isn't slavery if they want it, is it

The problem with that is that they are, in fact, children. They don't know any better. They don't understand any other concept other than working for their false masters. They are not able to make decisions for themselves (courtesy of the Shapers), so they need to be educated so they can understand what they want.

The Last Archon

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Godwin's Lawyer

Judging the Shapers after at least a decade of vicious warfare isn't fair.

Well, we don't have much else to go on. But even before the Rebellion erupted (GF1 and GF2) the Shapers were a bunch of jerks who exterminated anyone with a shred of independent thought. Let's not forget their purge of Sucia Isle, and how they razed Medab in GF2.

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I've already agreed that by G5 rebellion is the only sensible response. Before that, however, I get the sense that they weren't all crazed reactionaries terrified of their own creations.

Which explains all the Discipline Wands, whips, and shackles prior to GF5? The destruction of any servile with independent thought? The genocide of an entire species? The shaping of Servant Minds so that they have useless limbs? The Shaper regime has always been terrified of their Creations rebelling against them (ie. going 'rogue'), which is why they resorted to such draconian measures of control.

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The two beginning mistakes, mistreatment of serviles and genocide of drayks, didn't require armed response. They required shapers and ordinary non-shapers willing to stand up and point out errors.

That would have been nice, but unfortunately most Shapers and ordinary non-Shapers were not willing to stand up and point out the error. Most Shapers and humans explicitly or implicitly support the Shapers reign and oppression, and therefore Rebellion became the only feasible way to change the status quo.

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The Jews and the drayks are both elements of a population chosen for annihilation due to something beyond their control. That's really all the analogy you'll get, but isn't it enough?

Exactly.

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—Alorael, who just doesn't see extermination of drayks are the core of Shaper society. It was a very bad decision,

Except the genocide wasn't something which just happened in the past and was forgotten. Drayks are still Barred up to the present, and are marked for extermination.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Keita

Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug

It's also blatantly obvious that the serviles are not *children*. They are more than capable of existing independently.

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Actually, no. There is plenty of evidence which shows that regular serviles, not the ones in the rebellion, when left, cannot function well enough to survive.

Of course, the other side of that argument is "Sucia".

Um, yeahhhhh. You've pretty much refuted your original claim. Thanks.

[Spddin Ignis]

Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug

And you could argue that Nazi rule wasn't bad... for non-Jewish Germans. And yes, I'd argue that the analogy is highly relevant, given that certain segments of Shaper society (ie. Drayks) were targeted for genocide.

The germans didnt create the jews, and therefore have no rightful control or responsability over them. Drayks probably were barred after they rebelled before the Geneforge series. Drayks were apparently great creations but they rebelled and the shalpers abandoned them. Also there is evidence that alot of serviles cannot servive on there own. For example look outside perkaila in the farms and you will see serviles in a building who were left alone by there masters. The shapers have learned that fear and intimidation are the best ways to keep control and they used that. The shapers strict rule is justified by the need to keep control over the powers that can destroy the world. Shapers are not nearly as bad as the rebels in creating un-controlable rogues such as the unbound. In a shaper world without rebellion the only rogue creations you would ever find would be in a collapsed research facility.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin

The germans didnt create the jews, and therefore have no rightful control or responsability over them.

An arbitrary distinction. You might as well argue that a parent has the right to kill their offspring whenever it so suits them.

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Drayks probably were barred after they rebelled before the Geneforge series.

That's supposition. But for fun, let's assume that there was a drayk rebellion. That doesn't mean that there weren't loyal drayks, in fact, I find it highly unlikely that there weren't. This means that the Shapers targeted all drayks for extermination, irrespective of their loyalty to the Shaper regime. That's no different from what Taygen wants to do. In fact, I'd argue that Taygen has more justification, given that many serviles are engaging in organised resistance! As far as we know, the drayks never rebelled prior to being Barred.

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Also there is evidence that alot of serviles cannot servive on there own.

One word. Sucia.

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The shapers have learned that fear and intimidation are the best ways to keep control and they used that.

You have my complete agreement there. They are tyrants.

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The shapers strict rule is justified by the need to keep control over the powers that can destroy the world.

That's one reason they use to justify their hoarding of power, but I find such a justification wholly inadequate.

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Shapers are not nearly as bad as the rebels in creating un-controlable rogues such as the unbound.

No, they just create the Purity Agent. As to the Unbound, hey, whatever works, right?

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In a shaper world without rebellion the only rogue creations you would ever find would be in a collapsed research facility.

Ahh, but the Shaper world does have Rebellion. Guess all that control was for naught, hmm?

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug

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Shapers are not nearly as bad as the rebels in creating un-controlable rogues such as the unbound.

No, they just create the Purity Agent. As to the Unbound, hey, whatever works, right?

Just so you know (this also applies to your other thread, but fits in better here), most Shapers disagree with Taygen. You'll notice that Astoria, Alwan and even Rawal all give you quests designed to hinder or completely halt Taygen's work on the purity agent.

It would seem as through all three of them do in fact care about creation life, even if they find it less important than human life. I'm not saying that the Shapers are perfect, far from it, but they aren't all (or, based on my interpretation of the Shapers' responses to Taygen, most of them aren't) cold, heartless taskmasters.

[Øther]

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin

Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug

And you could argue that Nazi rule wasn't bad... for non-Jewish Germans. And yes, I'd argue that the analogy is highly relevant, given that certain segments of Shaper society (ie. Drayks) were targeted for genocide.

The germans didnt create the jews, and therefore have no rightful control or responsability over them. Drayks probably were barred after they rebelled before the Geneforge series. Drayks were apparently great creations but they rebelled and the shalpers abandoned them. Also there is evidence that alot of serviles cannot servive on there own. For example look outside perkaila in the farms and you will see serviles in a building who were left alone by there masters. The shapers have learned that fear and intimidation are the best ways to keep control and they used that. The shapers strict rule is justified by the need to keep control over the powers that can destroy the world. Shapers are not nearly as bad as the rebels in creating un-controlable rogues such as the unbound. In a shaper world without rebellion the only rogue creations you would ever find would be in a collapsed research facility.

I keep on wondering why you think that there was a Drayk rebellion. They were barred because the shapers figured out that they might not be mindless slaves.

And because the shapers made many of the creations, you think they have the natural right to control them, and have them do whatever they want?

[Spddin Ignis]

the shapers aren't parents. The creations were made to serve. The purity agent doesn't kill innocent humans. The innocent creations are just collateral. The purity agent would be a way of saving humans from the rebel creations. Creations can easily be remade, humanlife is a different story. The unbound kill humans and other creations alike. And you say the shapers shouldn't horde there power...come back talk to me after you play all the geneforge games. If everyone was allowed to shape there would be no terrestria. Spawners are uncontolled shaping, as is the burrowing mold in geneforge 3 and the unbound in 5. The shapers "hoarding" of their power brought centuries of peice. If you want to just let everyone shape the terrestia would be hell.

[A less presumptuous name.]

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Creations can easily be remade

Yes, because the thousands of ornks that the Shapers and others farm for food can be remade in an instant. And all of the Shapers want to just sit around Shaping new creations. Also, serviles, perhaps the most useful animal-style creations, are a royal pain to shape, as mentioned in gf 1. Reshaping all of the creations, even if only the animal-like ones die, would take years upon years as well as massive amounts of essence and other resources, like money and Shapers.

I agree with the Shapers, but Taygen seems to be a bit loony. The Shapers have spent hundreds or even thousands of years making Terestia (sp) what it is today. To have all of that undone in a week? Not smart.

[Spddin Ignis]

i still think that if it saves humans lives it it worth it. I prefer alwans method anyway.

[Øther]

By the way, burrowing mold was made by the shapers.

 

And you are talking about the shapers hoarding bringing peace? Most lands ruled by tyrants do, even though it is only for a little while. The shapers hoarding made the geneforge, made the drayks, made the drakons, so basically, they started the rebellion.

[Spddin Ignis]

There would be no terretia if everyone could shape, would there. Brahzal wouldnt have lived long enough to create drakons.Drayks would be just as crazy and most serviles would have been eaten by rouges.

[Øther]

Just because many people could shape doesn't mean that they will abuse it. Sure, there will some that will, but there always will be, in the shaper sect or not. If you give everyone in a city a gun, will they go around shooting each other? Some will, and that would always be the case. The only reason there is destruction is because the shapers have gotten themselves caught in a rebellion.

[Spddin Ignis]

creating life is much more harmful then owning a gun.