Desstruction of Terrestria[G5]

[Spddin Ignis]

Who do you think brought the most/least destruction to Terrestria.

[Chessrook44]

Rebellion, Bar None. I mean, they freaking made the AVATARS of Death and Destruction in the Unbound! Can you possibly beat that?

 

Also, to your sig, I must say that there IS no normal.

[Alorael at Large]

Who brought the most destruction to the United States during the Revolutionary War? Rebels are the ones who have to inflict the most damage. They're the ones toppling the status quo.

 

—Alorael, who would also argue that Taygen would be the most destructive if he were successful. His plan is the annihilation of many, many lives, presumably including serviles who serve essential roles in towns and villages and even possibly to the creatures they rely on for food, defense, and labor. And the Trakovites, of course, wish to entirely upend the way of life for everyone in Terrestia.

[Barzhal]

Least amount of destruction: Servant mind Tro (dock ruins GF1)

 

Most destruction: Me

[Sleeping Dragon]

Originally Posted By: Speak and Desist

Who brought the most destruction to the United States during the Revolutionary War? Rebels are the ones who have to inflict the most damage. They're the ones toppling the status quo.

I have to disagree. I do not have any figures on hand, but I do not think your analysis is correct. The rebels in the case of the Revolutionary War were the one living in the nations where the war was happening. The British were not, and they could be unforgiving when dealing with insurgents. They would burn the property of suspected revolutionaries. The rebels might have dumped some British tea into the ocean, but other than that, it was up to the British to break the spirits of an entire population, while the Americans only had to outlast an overextended army.

If you think about it, Drakons are more like an invading force than they are a native rebellion. They haven't been around very long, and Terrestia is not populated by them, so they have little stake in keeping it intact. It makes sense then that they would feel the most comfortable with such destructive tactics in the war.

To answer the other part of the question, I think the ornks brought the least destruction to Terrestia.

[Acky]

The rebellion. That's not up for debate. The validity of it, of course, is unquestionably up in the air

 

(or your air, technically, since I think it was worth it.)

 

The Last Archon

[Desmarestia]

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

That's not up for debate.

Of course it is.

The question is hard to answer because, in many cases, the rebels and Shapers both contributed to the same destruction. Yes, the rebels brought the violence, but the Shapers constructed a society in which violence was inevitable. By their unwillingness to negotiate, they prolonged the devastation. Their pride made them escalate it. Arguments over initial responsibility become irrelevant anyway when you consider the perpetually increasing savagery of both sides.

The drakons created the Unbound, but the Shapers fought them to a standstill. That's rather the point: by G5, the sides were so evenly balanced that it didn't matter who inflicted more damage because the other side would match it in retaliation. I strongly doubt either side was keeping track of how many enemy strongholds they had blown up.

[Acky]

In what way? True, the Shapers have set themselves up for this war long before Barzhal, but "destruction" in this case was a question of how much collateral damage the war has caused, which the rebels are guilty the majority of it entirely. This is a fact. A fact cannot be debated. Therefore, it is not up for debate.

 

The Last Archon

[Desmarestia]

Why do you say the rebels were responsible for most of the collateral damage? Because they released the Unbound?

[Spddin Ignis]

precisely, the shapers didnt just kill innocents who were not apart of the war

[Desmarestia]

I strongly doubt that. Loyalist soldiers are not known for asking questions before they slice you up. That's why refugees tend not to trust you. Rogue creations leveling innocent towns is also not out of the question. At least some of the sentient rebel creations don't go kill-crazy if you ignore them for two seconds.

[Spddin Ignis]

Unbound...they see you and go kill crazy

[Desmarestia]

Some of the rebel creations don't. The drayks, gazers, and some battle alphas and betas have a modicum of self-control.

 

Besides, remember the rebel ending of G4? The Shapers pull a Monarch. Tell me that's worse than the Unbound.

[Spddin Ignis]

The alphas and betas are being controlled by the crazed drakons and gazers. Gazers are born crazy, drakons shaped all the sanity out of themselves. Drakons make drayks crazy. Human rebels have shaped themselves crazy, serviles who can use magic ussualy use canisters or make themselves crazy to do magic. Only unshaped rebel serviles have a tiny amount of sanity within them.

[Desmarestia]

I'm not saying the rebels are sane. Just that they don't indiscriminately burn everything they see. Even drakons don't attack civilians for no reason.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that the rebels neither monopolize nor limit themselves to uncontrolled destruction.

[Spddin Ignis]

but them and their creations acount for MOST of the destruction

[nikki.]

How many Shaper-made creations do we see in the Geneforge games? And how many of those go rogue and cause destruction? How many camps of serviles are absorbed/destroyed because of one rogue idea?

 

I think it's short-sighted to say the least to think that the Rebels are the most destructive group - in G3, there is even proof that they do not always destroy towns to take control of them: on Gull Island, you can help the serviles overthrow the Shapers, which results in the death of a handful of people, not large scale destruction.

 

 

[Spddin Ignis]

Shapers dont INTENTIONALY CAUSE DESTRUCTION. They kill serviles and their rogue ideas so they dont have a rebellion. For you examples most rogues in g3 were created by spawners which rebels just happened to make. Especially in G3, LITALIA and HOGE created majority of the rogues in which we saw. In g2 the towns were being attacked by spawners such that were created by rebels and eassses minions. The simple truth is that almost all calateral is caused by rebels.

[nikki.]

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin

Shapers don#t INTENTIONALLY CAUSE DESTRUCTION.

So when they purged Sucia Island, that was an accident?

[Spddin Ignis]

Those serviles were not PEOPLE. and they had it coming to them.

[nikki.]

Even the peaceful ones, who did nothing but serve the Shapers?

 

And besides, that's a whole different question. The fact of the matter is, the Shapers are just as capable of razing things as the Rebels.

[Acky]

They were innocent creatures. Two thirds of them had no intention of rebeling against the Shapers, and one of those two thirds just wanted to be left alone.

 

Des - It wasn't just the Unbound. There are 7 years before the advent of the Unbound were the rebels were running around, trying to kill almost every loyalist. Granted, that was only half of that time period, before the Shapers started to turn the tide, but the all the same, in total, the rebels have caused more destruction than the Shapers during the war.

 

The Last Archon

[Spddin Ignis]

i never said shapers were nice, just said rebels caused more destruction.

[Desmarestia]

Archon - seems I've been undone by my own ignorance. Having only played the last two games, I never considered what might have happened during those seven years you mentioned.

 

On a side note, I love these boards. I love how debates tend not to degenerate into utter flaming chaos, even when one of the participants is being an ignorant n00b. *stares at feet*

[Acky]

Hey, its no big deal. We don't all have $131 to waste our life on games with:)

 

The Last Archon

[Dikiyoba]

"Who causes the most destruction?" is really a trick question. Neither the Shapers nor the rebels, as a whole, care about avoiding carnage. Victory is eliminating the opposing side. If you asked the average Guardian or average drakon which side caused the most destruction, they'd probably both proudly say "Ours!" "If our world is made into a burnt husk, we will still be the masters of it!" may as well be the motto for both sides.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Alorael at Large]

The Shapers don't benefit from random destruction. They benefit from the death of rebels. Collateral damage is sad but inevitable. The rebels need to defeat the shapers, which means all damage not done to them is victory. They're in a target-rich environment. The rebels are more destructive because they are the cause of everything; if there were no rebels, the shaper lands would be at peace. Oppressed, perhaps, but at peace.

 

For which side has directly caused more harm, as Diki says, it's a wash, especially by G5. Both sides have a scorched earth, salt the fields policy towards their enemies. Everyone loses, and each loss only escalates the cycle of burning the world down.

 

—Alorael, who thinks that's where rebellion went wrong. The rebels could have had the moral high ground. The eventual choice seems to be peace and Shaper tyranny and very porous protection from rogues or peace and rampant shaping (and tyranny by drakons). There isn't a right choice. It's part of what makes Astoria's faction so appealing. She's the one who seems aware that everyone involved is doing evil and the only definite good is an end to the violence.

[Spddin Ignis]

But the rebels have a scorched earth and salted feilds policy towards innocents who have no way of harming them. While the shapers just destroy the rebels.

[Acky]

Not true. The Shapers have never hesitated to kill any outsider to oppose them. And thats been going on for 2000 years, at least.

 

The Last Archon

[Spddin Ignis]

if an outsider opposes them he/she is considered a rebel. The drakons send the unbound to kill innocents that didnt oppose them in anyway most of them probably didnt want to be apart of the war. look at the city filled with unbound in the meratev...or former city

[Lilith]

What about Turabi Gate in G4? The Shapers were killing everyone who even approached it to ask for permission to pass through. That's indiscriminate murder if anything is.

[Acky]

Yes. The Drakons are bastards. But the Shapers have ran an oppressive, totaltalitarian government for hundreds of years. The Shapers have committed plenty of mass murders for the sake of their own control. Multiple times they've committed genocide against creations for being too smart. If I were too disagree with the presidents foreign polices, should I be killed for it? If I was an outsider who publicly protested the Shapers for something they are doing, than I would be jailed, or worse, executed.

 

The Last Archon

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

If I were too disagree with the presidents foreign polices, should I be killed for it?

I've had this argument with him before. At best, you'll convince him that we should in fact be executing dissidents in the real world too, which is the exact opposite of what we want to do here.

[Spddin Ignis]

im still not saying that the shapers are kind. they had the war coming to them...but the drakons are still more destructive in the killing of outsiders who had not done anything to them. The creations had a right to rebel against their masters..but if they are killed in the proccess it is their fault. The shapers lead a world of relative peace before the rebellion...but the most destrictive forces of the ware were the drakons and their uncontroled creations like the unbound. Or the shred bugs are another example.

[Alorael at Large]

And the Purity Agent?

 

The rebels are in a very simple position. Everyone who is not a rebel is loyal to the shapers by default and by millennia of inertia. Their scorched Earth is uglier, but it's not asymmetrical.

 

—Alorael, who still doesn't think you're quite grasping the rebels' position. The Unbound were necessary, or at least justified, by the fact that the Shapers had far more and far stronger forces on their side. They were a scorched earth guerilla warfare tactic. Only by G5 can there be any pretension of equality between the opposed sides.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Here's my view on the subject. The rebels, well, the drakons, have caused the most direct damage. Now, the Shapers haven't exactly been innocent little children this whole time, but in the time frame of geneforges 4 and 5, the ones that take place on Terrestria, I have seen more destruction done by the rebels work. Now, blaming the shapers for the rebellion is like blaming those who initially discovered shaping for giving rise to the Shapers who gave rise to the rebellion. (I see where Trakovites get their ideas, regardless of whether I agree with them or not.) Heck, if it weren't for life in general, there wouldn't be any bloody rebellion!

 

You get my point. Yeah, the Shapers have made some pretty serious mistakes, and I'm not about to deny that, but the rebels (again, mostly the drakons) have caused more the damage that I've seen in these last 2 games. Whether or not the rebels had to or not, and what caused them to do what they did, is a whole separate question. The rebels have caused more directdamage than the Shapers.

[Acky]

Quote:

Terrestria

I fully admit that I am a complete hypocrite for correcting someone elses spelling, but I've noticed that this "Terrestria" has been coming up a lot. What ever happened to Terrestia?

The Last Archon

[Spddin Ignis]

oh...ive always pronounced it with an r.......wheres that pronounciation bee thread again

[A less presumptuous name.]

I really should make a note in my signature that my spelling of non real words is always going to be horribly off. I glance at the word when I first read it and then say it to myself that way, if I ever say it aloud at all. So yeah, my spelling sucks (I actually just typed "speeling" on accident).

[Dikiyoba]

Quote:

—Alorael, who thinks that's where rebellion went wrong. The rebels could have had the moral high ground.

So, seen any Awakened around lately?

Dikiyoba.

[Acky]

Only in my memories.

[Alorael at Large]

There might be a few hanging around Haria-Kel, too.

 

—Alorael, who notes that the moral high ground is insufficiently defensible when assaulted by drakons. It's a significant strategic flaw.

[Spddin Ignis]

yeah, theres penta, and kaz...what happened to vakir.

[nikki.]

That bothered me, actually. They could remember the name of the island well enough, but not "Pentil" or "Kazg".

[Mea Tulpa]

Or "Trajkov". That makes sense, though -- "Sucia" was a name long known and recorded among the Shapers; the others were not, and were passed on mainly by oral transmission.

[Student of Trinity]

I thought Jeff's arbitrary transmutation of Trajkov into Trakov was an inspired touch, since Trajkov is presumably a Sholai name that would probably indeed get garbled in transmission among foreigners. Kazg and Pentil seem less obvious candidates for distortion, since those were presumably Shaper and/or Servile names to begin with. Still not implausible, though, among Serviles who are presumably mostly illiterate.

[Feo Takahari]

I thought it was a bit uninspired to have everything degenerate into such a morally grey bloodbath. If I wanted to depress the hell out myself, I'd play I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream. Then again, there's really no getting around the fact that if you're going to make a game about slaughtering people, those slaughtered must either be evil (which is unrealistic when there are a large number of them) or not be evil (which necessarily gets depressing, unless the intended audience is borderline psychopathic a la Manhunt.)

[Sleeping Dragon]

Oh, I said something similar in the other thread before I read your comment, Feo, and I agree. It is sad, but war is supposed to be sad. At least Jeff tried to make each side somewhat justified in their own twisted ways. Manhunt was basically just you trying to murder people as brutally as possible for entertainment value (literally). I'm not usually one to get morally judgmental when it comes to video games, but that one was intense.