Jump to content

General questions about series


Recommended Posts

I'm a fan of the Exile series, was a fan of that before Avernum came out...but I love the continuing story, and seeing how the Exile games stopped at #3 and Avernum goes 2 more, I figured I should take a look at these new story parts. I've heard some people say A4 is no good, but that A5 is amazing. I played through A1 and I liked it, tried A4 and its changes from previous Avernum games kinda turned me off. It feels too much like Geneforge now (which is a great game but not my style).

 

What do you all think? Does A4 match up with A1-3/E1-3, or is it subpar? Also, I noticed a screenshot of the A5 map, and there are whole new areas of Avernum never before seen. That's cool, but i want to know if you can still go to the original areas of Avernum/Exile, or is the story confined to the new portions?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A4 takes place in the original caves. A5 begins in the Abyss, but you can't revisit anywhere significant that you've seen in earlier games and quickly move into new territory.

 

A4 matches up with E3/A3 too well. The story is exactly what one might expect from the ending of the preceding game, and it's presented very much like the plot of E3/A3. Most of the complaints center around the plot deja vu.

 

As far as engine complaints go, though, I just don't quite understand. The graphics have become more Geneforge-like. You can love that or hate that, but graphics have never been the Spiderweb centerpiece. The engine is still very Avernum-like. You move one space at a time, you use your action points, and you have your party of four, and you cast mage and priest spells. The loss of the outdoors and the creation of a large, seamless world is strange, and I don't love the change, but it's certainly not like the zone-based Geneforge.

 

—Alorael, whose conclusion is that A4 is a fine game unless you're driven crazy by the story repetition or the new engine. If you hate the engine A5 won't do much for you either. If you don't, you can either play A4 (it's not the star of the series, but it's fun) or skip it and jump straight to A5, which is definitely a worthy penultimate entry in the series.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One issue about the engine change that is not an issue of engine preference, is the gross distortion of the A1-3 map in A4. Towns that previously were many screens apart are now right next door to each other due to space limitations. This is worst in the Eastern Gallery. A5 doesn't have this issue since it wasn't fitting a predesigned world into a new map system, so it looks a lot more natural.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll add my two cents: I don't actually see the resemblance between the plots of A4 and A3, and furthermore think any game Spiderweb has made since at least the original Avernum has been worth playing based on its plot. A4 also has the best jokes of any Spiderweb game I've played. However, something about the combat system seems oddly simplified, particularly when dealing with foes that have no special abilities--with infinite arrows but weak bows, magic only necessary against the toughest enemies, and high enemy HP totals, you just stab, get clawed, stab, get clawed, stab and kill, heal, and repeat over and over. Generally speaking, if you could stand the early Final Fantasy games, you won't have a problem, and if you couldn't, you may still not have a problem, as while the plot isn't up to the level of Final Fantasy, neither is the combat as boring.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Click to reveal..
A3 has a mysterious enemy creating plagues of monsters attacking the Empire. It turns out to be the work of Rentar-Ihrno, who seeks revenge for the events of the previous game.

A4 has a mysterious enemy creating psychic plague-inducing shades attacking Avernum. It turns out to be the work of Rentar-Ihrno, who seeks revenge for the events of the previous game.


—Alorael, who can only conclude that you are concerned with the details, which are indeed quite different, and losing sight of the big picture, which is practically identical.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: Dark and Starstormy
One issue about the engine change that is not an issue of engine preference, is the gross distortion of the A1-3 map in A4. Towns that previously were many screens apart are now right next door to each other due to space limitations. This is worst in the Eastern Gallery. A5 doesn't have this issue since it wasn't fitting a predesigned world into a new map system, so it looks a lot more natural.


Let's be honest here: if it weren't for A4's other problems, this would be a nitpick so trivial as to barely rate a mention. Ultima did this lots of times and nobody cared until U9, at which point the fans were in a mood to be harshly critical.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: When you leap into the abyss...
Click to reveal..
A3 has a mysterious enemy creating plagues of monsters attacking the Empire. It turns out to be the work of Rentar-Ihrno, who seeks revenge for the events of the previous game.

A4 has a mysterious enemy creating psychic plague-inducing shades attacking Avernum. It turns out to be the work of Rentar-Ihrno, who seeks revenge for the events of the previous game.


—Alorael, who can only conclude that you are concerned with the details, which are indeed quite different, and losing sight of the big picture, which is practically identical.



The Avernum Series: You take several steps whilst trying to accomplish some goal(s).
Pretty much any other game that has ever existed: You take several steps whilst trying to accomplish some goal(s).
Real life: You take several steps whilst trying to accomplish some goal(s).
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: Earth2025
lol@alorael

on storyline a4 was a3 with new graphics just bit changes on a3's story. 1st trilogy wasn't that obvious sequels to prev game (yeah a1 wasn't sequel) like 2nd trilogy is where story continues almost same point where previous game ended (we don't know yet what a6 holds in).

all of the sequels are pretty obvious to me...
avernum 1: some avernites kill the emperor
avernum 2: the empire wants revenge by any means necessary and even kidnaps some crystal souls
avernum 3: rentar-ihrno wants revenge on the empire for what they did and some avernites help end the monster plagues in exchange for peace with the empire. rentar-ihrno vows revenge (which is why even though there was some plot deja vu in the next game, it was necessary)
avernum 4: rentar-ihrno comes through on her promise, but is defeated again. there is also a conspiracy led by a former empire soldier to destroy avernum and bring back the old empire.
avernum 5: because the empress isn't like her dad, dorikas, aka the conspiracy leader, assassinates her. some empire soldiers kill him.
avernum 6: most likely, the remnants of the darkside loyalists will want revenge and some avernites have to kill them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: Sss-Chah
The Avernum Series: You take several steps whilst trying to accomplish some goal(s).
Pretty much any other game that has ever existed: You take several steps whilst trying to accomplish some goal(s).
Real life: You take several steps whilst trying to accomplish some goal(s).


So you're saying that "Rentar's back and she wants revenge" is no more specific a plot point than "This game has a plot"? Do you really believe that? Really? It's okay to like A4, but this is not a sensible way to defend it.

The other thing you have to consider is that there were about 214 BoE scenarios about Rentar being back and wanting revenge. It was literally the biggest cliche possible within the Exile/Avernum universe and everybody got tired of it very quickly.

Originally Posted By: Sss-Chah
avernum 3: rentar-ihrno wants revenge on the empire for what they did and some avernites help end the monster plagues in exchange for peace with the empire. rentar-ihrno vows revenge (which is why even though there was some plot deja vu in the next game, it was necessary)


Why couldn't Dorikas have been the main villain of A4 and Rentar the sidequest instead of the other way around? Considering the DLs' attitude to nonhumans, Dorikas could even have killed Rentar himself.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll just reiterate that while I think A4 is one of the weaker games in the series, I still finished it and still enjoyed it. I also happen to think that A3 has one of the weakest plots in the series; repeating the plot certainly doesn't do A4 any favors, but it's not as though there are devious twists and deep mysteries that are ruined. Spiderweb games have never been about the overarching plots, really, with the exception of Nethergate. They're about the details, and while A4 is a little weaker there too, it has the same Spiderweb humor and the same nice touches that make all the games worth playing.

 

—Alorael, who wonders if perhaps A4's throwaway plot is intentional. A3 wraps things up nicely except for the loose thread of Rentar at large. A4 ties that one up, but it also gets to introduce Dorikas and the Darkside Loyalists. The game really serves just as a bridge between the first trilogy and the next game or two.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A4 plot just wasn't that good. Having the Darkside Loyalists as the main villians would have been a welcome change. Rentar was just too much of A3.

 

The game engine was a major improvement with the wait command no longer necessary, you could exchange positions with teammates, and more slots in inventory.

 

The world map being seamless just didn't feel right with all the towns in the Eastern Gallery almost a stone throw away. A larger map would have been nicer so you the scale would have been closer to the older games. A5 got around this problem with new areas that couldn't be compared to previous games.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

So you're saying that "Rentar's back and she wants revenge" is no more specific a plot point than "This game has a plot"? Do you really believe that? Really? It's okay to like A4, but this is not a sensible way to defend it.
no, that's not even close to what i was saying. the point that i was making is that it's the details that make a game worth playing. revenge is part of the plot for every game in the avernum series (and many other series, for that matter), whether you yourself want revenge or you have to stop someone else from getting it. as for liking avernum 4, it was just okay to me. i still see why it was a necessary sequel, though.
Originally Posted By: Thuryl

The other thing you have to consider is that there were about 214 BoE scenarios about Rentar being back and wanting revenge. It was literally the biggest cliche possible within the Exile/Avernum universe and everybody got tired of it very quickly.
that doesn't matter. there still needed to be some kind of official revenge because she promised it.
Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Why couldn't Dorikas have been the main villain of A4 and Rentar the sidequest instead of the other way around? Considering the DLs' attitude to nonhumans, Dorikas could even have killed Rentar himself.
that wouldn't make very much sense logically.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, there's also the Lufia option. You start out with a level 50 party of seasoned adventurers who have just infiltrated Rentar's keep after learning that she was planning an assault on Avernum. This first dungeon acts as a tutorial section and teaser for the rest of the game: you're in no real danger and get to play around with a bunch of cool spells and items that you'll be seeing later on. As you make your triumphant return to Avernite lands after killing Rentar, an elite group of Darkside Loyalists ambush and murder the party. Then you start over as a beginner party and find out who killed your team of badasses.

 

Seriously, there were lots of ways to not make the whole damn game about Rentar. It just takes a little creativity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At the time of Lufia there was no Lufia II, and depending on sales and other factors there may well have never been a Lufia II. It wasn't inevitable!

 

—Alorael, who agrees with Thuryl that it could have been handled better and with Slarty that the bridge could be short. Still, the game works. It's not as though it consists entirely of obligatory suffering.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...