Avernum 5 Ideas

[Nioca]

We're nearing that fateful time. After Nethergate 2.0 is out and running, A5 is bound to be in the works. And since it's been proven that Jeff does follow good ideas, it seemed only fitting that we have an ideas thread. What would you want to see in A5?

[Lilith]

Hot Slith-on-Nephil action.

[*i]

As a caveat, mechanics suggestions are more likely to be used. I'd stay away from any specific plot suggestions, you're almost certainly wasting poor electrons.

[Aoslare]

Things I do not want to see:

- Quarantines

- Rentar-Ihrno

- A new humanoid race or culture with a religious ritual that involves touching the surface of three pools of water

- Clawbugs

- Pylons

[Igor]

Nurrr, most of what I said I wanted for Avernum 4.

a) Greater variety in the magic system, possibly a new type of magic besides mage/priest

reinstating the alchemy system, expanding the usefulness of alchemy

c) being able to make light so that playing the damn game doesn't make me go blind from the dungeon sections.

d) greater variety in what non-casters can do.

e) perhaps something like feats, so that characters can get new traits/abilities every few levels.

f) the old targeting system.

g) a plot that is not totally linear.

[Ephesos]

I'd honestly rather see JV fix BoA first...

 

(waits for laughter to stop)

 

Right... I'd kind of like to see elevation come back. And it might benefit the game to break out of the same section of Avernum used in 1, 2, and 4... particularly after how 4's engine change crunched most of it down.

 

I'd also like to see an explanation for how Fort Ganrick, Grindstone, Fort Monastery, and their ilk keep messing up the continuity of the game.

[Nioca]

Level 3 spells, like in A3 (When haste, at level 3, would haste the entire group instead of a single PC), but expand it to all spells. For example, an L3 Bolt of Fire would explode on contact, causing some AE damage. L3 Icy rain could actually freeze enemies solid, similar to that demon in the Tower Colony. You get the idea.

 

Also, it could be taken a step further by having the L3 variant cost more, and you can choose between the standard spell and the L3 spell.

[Just Another Muffin Junky]

In general: More stealth, tactics, and uncertainty!

(you can probably just skip the rest now)

 

I think that there should be lots of areas that you have to sneak around more and run for your life! Because, lets face it, running for your life is more interesting than point-click-kill. Also, no more stupid QUARANTINE ZONES!!! AHHHHGGGGG!!! It was so annoying that you couldn't move on, NO MATTER WHAT which made it impossible for you to go have a ball fighting monsters three times your level. Besides, that should be enough of a hint that this area is too tough for you, you don't need a big magical barrier to tell you that! And wheres the fun in not being able to go ahead and do quests later that are much harder but give you more xp.

[Randomizer]

Take the combat system from Geneforge 4 so you no longer waste a turn if you have less than 5 AP to fight or use a spell. At least make it so you don't lose the rest of the action if you still have 3 AP.

 

Please bring back elevations.

 

Mass haste or more mass haste items.

 

The backpack/encumberance system from Geneforge 4 so you don't spend a round dropping everything or leaving piles everywhere to pick up on return trips. From what Jeff said last time it seems like there maybe a few one way sections.

[Aoslare]

Quote:

Originally written by Ephesos:
the same section of Avernum used in 1, 2, and 4

Section of Avernum? That's pretty much all of Avernum proper. This is well-established.

Quote:

I'd also like to see an explanation for how Fort Ganrick, Grindstone, Fort Monastery, and their ilk keep messing up the continuity of the game.

They don't. Fort Monastery is new, and Fort Ganrick was described even in E2 as a temporary construction built solely to hold off the goblins and nephils north of Draco. Grindstone is odd only because such villages usually get a special node with a dialog box rather than an actual town.

I would, however, still like to know what the heck happened to Fort Saffron during the Empire War.

[Alorael at Large]

So quarantines are good when used to define the boundaries of a chapter (A2, G4) but bad when used to define the boundaries of a less explicit chapter (A4)? Okay.

 

—Alorael, who would be settled with a good plot backed up by the mechanics of A4 with appropriate tweaks. Yes, there are other nice things that could appear, but A4 was mechanically sound. Now Avernum needs its story to move forward as it didn't really in A4.

[AnarhIztok2511]

Slarty wrote:

----------------------------------------

Things I do not want to see:

- Quarantines

- Rentar-Ihrno

- A new humanoid race or culture with a religious ritual that involves touching the surface of three pools of water

- Clawbugs

- Pylons

-----------------------------------------

And don't forget chitrachs or however they're called - let's assume we destroyed thwem for good in A4, OK?

 

And for what i'd like - the open game like A1 or G2! And perhaps some new (ancient) race - or at least the ruins suggesting them - they don't need to be powerful or anything, just new.

Oh yeah, maybe also some newly discovered terrain ... (maybe even revisiting the vahnatai - their area always seemed so creepy to me ...)

And keep the decent balance between archers and fighters - finally it pays to have an archer - good for diversity!

 

And let's not forget:

 

KEEP THE GIFTS!

 

It's nice to be loved at least somewhere in such a hostile environment as averenum!

[Student of Trinity]

Everyone hates chitrachs, but we need something to hate.

 

Elevation would be cool, and so would the G4 AP system; but making sure that melee doesn't languish too badly. Not doing enough damage, or having too many monsters that give you unavoidable major badness when you hit them, tilts the game too much toward casters.

 

Starting somewhere in established Avernum, but exploring a totally new region of the underworld, would be coolest. The old, relatively small patch of subterranean real estate has had so many bad things happen to it, that letting it rest in peace for a while would make it much more plausible that anyone is still left down there at all. Exploring a new area would be great.

 

With elevation, better lighting rules, and some new weird stuff. How about a large Vahnatai city, for instance?

 

Or an open-ended plot in the sense that there are a number of quite different alternative goals to achieve. And maybe not have everything so urgent, all the time. Some casual exploring, without having to save the world, would be fun, at least for much of the game.

[Aoslare]

Quote:

Originally written by Delaying Tactictian:
So quarantines are good when used to define the boundaries of a chapter (A2, G4) but bad when used to define the boundaries of a less explicit chapter (A4)? Okay.

I am talking about quarantines specifically, not just any kind of barrier or boundary. E/A 2 thus did not have any quarantines. I'm willing to give a pass to E/A 1 ("exiling", the Abyss) as well.

But E/A 3 had a quarantined continent and a quarantined province, A4 had quarantined regions, G1 had a Barred island, G3 had a quarantined island chain. G4 has a quarantined province, though that isn't so bad because you are expected to violate the quarantine. VoDT revolved around a large Forbidden area. ASR had a quarantined area (though not at the beginning).

I realize that it's easier to make these kinds of games with artifical restrictions on where the player can go, but enough with the quarantines already. I don't want to have to make any comparisons to Lufia II.

The problem with A4 in this regard is just how movement was restricted. In A1 and A2, you had the same area to explore but you had (for the most part) unrestricted freedom to explore as you wished. There were any number of ways to get from Northeastern Exile to the Great Cave. But in A4, every possible route but one has been totally shut down, so it feels much less open and free. That's fine with the more linear plot, but for people who were used to the old Avernum I think it felt stifling.

Although G4 is handled similarly, the barriers feel much less arbitrary. First of all, it really does take a lot of effort to get through an entire region in G4; it doesn't feel like you are flying through the map and then stopping because of some random mayor. Also, the war and the tasks you are tasked with make the stopping points fit with the plot well, as opposed to A4, where justification seems more tenuous.

[Kelandon]

For the record, this is what Jeff had to say about this a while back:

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:

The way I currently picture Avernum 5 is:

 

i. In a whole new area of the underworld.

ii. On a much smaller scale, plot-wise. You have a major mission, but no monolithic power trying to blow up the world.

iii. More like Avernum 2 in details of storyline.

iv. Vahnatai are present.

v. More talk and diplomacy.

vi. More PC icons and graphical improvements, but the same underlying engine.

 

But I won't think about things in real detail for a year, at least.

 

- Jeff Vogel

I am in favor of i, iii, and vi, and I'm probably happy about ii. I'm unsure about v, and I'm a little anxious about iv.

[Student of Trinity]

Huh; I think I remember this, and I think it grew on me. A4 was my first real exposure to Avernum, but now I'm looking forward to A5.

[Alorael at Large]

Having the vahnatai dominate the plot (again) would be bad, but so would having them vanish. They're part of Avernum. They're actually more Avernite than the Avernites. They need to stay.

 

E/A2 should be recongized as the origin of the quarantines. What else would you call the barriers in Chapter 1? E/A3's quarantines also don't seem problematic. Blackcrag could just as easily refuse passage to you specifically because Worms aren't supposed to run around anywhere but Valorim. Tinraya has huge walls around it for good reason, but you aren't supposed to have any problems getting in.

 

A4's barriers seem artificial after A1 and A2, but only because they seem artificial, not because they're quarantines.

 

—Alorael, who was particularly baffled by Formello having barriers almost exactly where the vahnatai put them. Wasn't once enough?

[Upon Mars.]

Hmm, propably it should be as close as the series it can be.

Or how about the end of the world in A5 caused by demons rasing up to destroy the world and enslave humanity ! Herr never mind.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by opon mars (Translated by Nioca):
Hmm, it probably should be as close to the series as it can be. Or how about the end of the world in A5 caused by demons rising up to destroy the world and enslave humanity! Herr, never mind.

I thought that was pretty much covered in A1. Besides, it's too cliche.

Oh, and would you kindly explain 'herr'?

[Alorael at Large]

It's the noncommital sound "err" with some H adding, of course.

 

Jeff said that A5 won't be about saving the world, and demons have already done their destroying Avernum bit before A1, during A1, and during A3. Even Grah-Hoth has to get tired eventually.

 

—Alorael, who thinks the use of the Geneforge engine opens up lovely opportunties for NPCs to join your party (as NPCs, not PCs). It's been used to good effect in Geneforge and Nethergate, and there's no reason why it shouldn't work in Avernum.

[Dintiradan]

Quote:

It's the noncommital sound "err" with some H adding, of course.

That, or opon mars is respectfully addressing some German named 'never mind'.

--------------------
Roy: Dad?? But... you and Mom are both dead...
Roy's Father: Yeah, funny thing about being a ghost, it has some harsh prerequisites.
(OotS #15)

[Randomizer]

We could have Vahnatai as an isolated group like in the BoA scenario KZR. That would give them a limited neutral presence.

 

Diplomacy sounds too much like the opinion dialogs of Geneforge. If it is based upon actions then it would be okay since you get to make a conscious decision and not try to guess which dialog branch will lead to a payoff.

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

Four Vahnatai Tribe War

Empire Civil War

Un-Banished Sliths Discovered

Reinsertion of the Darkside Loyalists

Bandits (again, but way stronger)

Nephilim, Goblins, lizards, and some weak bandits (for the beginning)

Dragon Brood unleashed on the Empire

 

This is just something that if included with some other sub-plots would add up to what I would say is a good game!

[Synergy]

If A5 were my game to build, I'd do something totally different.

 

Instead of the usual focus on political/monster issues, this time an unforseen natural threat: seismic/volcanic/flooding activity destroy part of old Avernum. It also opens up a passage to a vast new cavern system which must be explored and secured for migration and colonization. What one could find in such an uncharted realm could go in many directions, but it could be very fresh, and not necessarily exclusively hostile.

 

Time would count. Towns would be destroyed by water, lava, or cave-ins as time passes. If you have done your job properly, the inhabitants will have somewhere to go. Meanwhile, the surviving cities are decaying into chaos and overcrowding with refugees. Maybe the criminals from the Spire would be intermingled and conflicts and disorder would result. The Darkside Loyalists could seize upon the opportunity to incite revolt. There would be different contentions for what to do and where to go to survive and it takes efficient explorers to figure out where that is going to be.

 

Eh, random and unrefined ideas on the spur of the moment. I hunger for something very fresh and different and it would be highly gratifying to pretend the Vahnatai never existed at all.

 

-S-

[Dikiyoba]

Somehow, I missed most of the posts in this topic until now. How did that happen?

 

Anyway, Dikiyoba will second Randomizer's suggestions for mass haste and G4's inventory/encumbrance system. (Dikiyoba hasn't seen it yet, but Dikiyoba disliked the A4 inventory/encumbrance system, so no matter what the exact details are, it should be an improvement.) More slith and nephil graphics would also be nice.

[Tyranicus]

Quote:

Originally written by Synergy67:
It also opens up a passage to a vast new cavern system which must be explored and secured for migration and colonization. What one could find in such an uncharted realm could go in many directions, but it could be very fresh, and not necessarily exclusively hostile.

Can someone say Exodus?

[Kelandon]

Yeah, and Solberg's homeland sliths idea is kinda treading on my territory, too.

[jamesmcm]

MULTIPLAYER!

Whether it be LAN or Internet or MMORPG-style or all of them i don't care but it's just about time they put multiplayer in...

[Synergy]

Quote:

Originally written by Tyranicus:

Quote:

Originally written by Synergy67:
It also opens up a passage to a vast new cavern system which must be explored and secured for migration and colonization. What one could find in such an uncharted realm could go in many directions, but it could be very fresh, and not necessarily exclusively hostile.

Can someone say Exodus?

Hmm, the only Ultima I ever played was IV back in 1986, but it goes to show there is no new idea under the sun ultimately. I think it would be great fun in the Avernum context though. I love exploration and discovery of strange, unpredictable and aesthetically impressive things in games. Avernum 4 pretty much lost that effect with no elevation and a retread of wholly familiar territory and little sense of beauty (light or dark) or wonder.

A lot of people didn't enjoy Avernum 3 for some reason, but I really enjoyed exploring that surface world.

-S-

[Kelandon]

No, like, Exodus, the BoA scenario. The premise of my most recent scenario is exploring a large, newly-opened area of the caves.

[Alorael at Large]

It's an obvious premise with caves. Even ZKR is basically predicated on the existence of caves near Avernum that haven't yet been explored or settled.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't want time limits. Timers are no fun for the compulsive. He also does not view a plague of bandits in any kinder light than plagues of other things. The only plague that really makes sense is chitrachs, and they're extremely irritating.

[Aoslare]

Chitrachs were not always this annoying. Sure, they were always hack n slash fests, but I remember them as being sort of interesting when they first appeared in E2. Back then, of course, they did things other than just attack.

 

The real problem is having about 30 map sections (counting the basements) filled with Chitrachs. That was utterly ridiculous.

[John S]

On a somewhat related note and also probably relating to the topic, I couldn't stand the multiple levels of A4. In previous Spiderweb games I just found a wall, walked along it, and traced out the outline of whatever region I was in; then I worked my way inwards, entered any towns, and thoroughly explored them as well. With A4 this is mostly impossible for several reasons:

1) You don't heal at the earlier rate while "outdoors", meaning you have to trek back to town every other time you fight a pack of bats

2) Multiple levels mean you (or at least I) have to backtrack, take every staircase down or up, and explore those tunnels

3) In the small section that I played, there were very few actual limits on how far I could move; my system completely failed when I had to cover so much territory at a time

 

Chances are I just didn't play enough to let A4 grow on me. But the fact is that whether or not I have an uninformed opinion, that initial perception cost Spiderweb money.

[Aoslare]

I had the same experience.

 

Be glad you didn't get to the Eastern Gallery. Imagine a 3x5 (or so) set of map squares with mostly interconnected basements, with chitrachs everywhere.

 

Actually, don't. It's painful even to imagine it.

[Dikiyoba]

I wasn't so bothered by the levels as much as I was by the lack of distinction between "dungeons" and "outdoors". For instance, the bulk of the section with the hostile half-blood nephil leader or whatever he was felt really empty, considering that it was supposed to be the nephil's camp. Then I entered the next section, which I thought should be fairly empty because I've passed the blockade, and I tripped over nephilim left and right. There wasn't enough anticipation for and respite from the battles.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Alorael at Large]

I like outdoors and indoors too, but I didn't think A4's sections were as bad as that. Exploration worked just fine, although Avernum has always been about secret passages. The only problem for me is that the world feels much smaller when there's no zooming out for roaming across the countryside.

 

—Alorael, who liked the chitrach warrens a great deal. "Like' isn't really the right word for suffering and fear, but it will do. They were a good area.

[Kelandon]

Now that I think about it more: I really hated the lack of outdoors. It might be a problem that I have with GF, too.

 

Lack of elevation was also a problem.

[Randomizer]

Elevations distinguish Avernum and Nethergate from the other games. The merging of towns and outside wouldn't have been so bad if the proportions had been maintained. I would buff and haste my party and race through an area until the haste wore off and leave fight mode to save. It was depressing how far you could travel between towns in A4 on one haste.

 

It would be nice to have a new area to explore outside the current caves. Even as a new underground level like the tunnels under the Great Cave with more interesting encounters. Maybe more than 2 levels in a area so you have a multilayer dungeon over more than one map area in the level.

[Synergy]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:
No, like, Exodus, the BoA scenario. The premise of my most recent scenario is exploring a large, newly-opened area of the caves.

Ah, well, I like this idea, so kudos. What I didn't like was the opening fight, so I never got any farther than that to play it.

-S-

[MidniteNightingale]

I'd like to see the clearance system return, ala Exile/Avernum 2. The whole Magi/Royal Clearance thing was pretty rewarding, it gave you more of a reason to return to previous areas, and I felt a greater sense of accomplishment when I returned to said areas.

[Scorpius]

I'd like to see a return of the surface world.

 

And yeah, as Alorael said, time limits are horrible.

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by MidniteNightingale:
I'd like to see the clearance system return, ala Exile/Avernum 2. The whole Magi/Royal Clearance thing was pretty rewarding, it gave you more of a reason to return to previous areas, and I felt a greater sense of accomplishment when I returned to said areas.

I agree... I really liked that system, and I missed it in A4. Even just something like A3's occasional uses of reputation were nice... I just want reputation back.